the big fat errata(Released!)

[Schlitzaf]

I don't even want new rules to buff Templars. I'm at the point where all I can ask is that they stop taking away what I have left.

 

At this point.....not wrong. The Deep Strike thing is just, I honestly, I’m at a complete loss. Currently thinking 2 Assault Squads and if I wasn’t soup’ing two Inceptor Squads. Starting on table and jumping forward but...I honestly don’t know. 10 Man Squads don’t hit hard so RhinoBros are out of question. I’m at loss, because beside running like 6 Tide Squads. So basically we are green tiding. I have no idea (and note 6 tides mean, Relic Banner, Cenos and Rites of War) how to handle this. Because that list would run at minimum around 1560 Points. Before we add anything else.

[Hawklynn]

As a new player with only two games under my belt (bolter?) I am finding a lot of this a bit overwhelming. Not in the sense of, "Oh Emperor, did I choose the wrong army," more the sense of, "Hrm, how can I learn this and not get so confused that it is not fun." I am going to see about getting a few games in this weekend, Emperor willing, want to try out my first "Alpha Strike" list. I would like to play at least one game sans Beta rules so that I can get a bit of a feel for how this tactic is supposed to be played and at least one game with the Beta rules to see how I can convert it a bit work with the rule proposal.

 

What are ya'll's thoughts on this?

[redmapa]

 

What are ya'll's thoughts on this?

 

With a constructive mindset I think our best options would be to use squads of Vanguard Veterans and Assault Marines to get into combat ASAP, my question right now is what kind of firebase are we able to build that can be useful? Hellblasters, Devastators and Razorbacks seem to be our better options but I just dont see Space Marines winning the gunline battle when you're up against a REAL gunline army so I personally dont like to play that game since I find it meaningless when you are better off building an IG artillery park for 600pts that can put a crapton more of pain than anything Space Marines have.

 

I do think mechanized lists are another option but the problem with that is that all our close combat units do not need a Rhino, so what are you putting in them? Crusaders are fine and a nice core but they wont give your army any real kick so using a ton of them doesnt seem like a good plan to me which again puts me back into the idea of Vanguard Veterans/Assault Marines and some fire support in whatever form you may want. Personally Im going to build a list with 3 Land Raiders and a bunch of Dreadnoughts and Vanguard Vets since its what I currently have and if Im going to lose games then Im doing it with the units that I like, I'll be using that in the meantime as I build another army which is basically as many Vanguard Vets/Assault Marines as I can supported by Inceptors but right now I only have 1 squad of Inceptors so I need 2 more that I'll get next month.

 

The core idea of a Black Templar has shifted from "Hammer & Anvil" to a more defensive approach where you charge what comes your way and use the speed of certain units to get objectives and engage enemy units as your castle fires away, its less assault focus and I guess more in line with how the other chapters work but I just cant see how else we can make this army work.

 

Kind of off topic but I've seen a lot of people running Dreadnought armies with a fair ammount of success in casual games, they are essentially the same idea as another space marine army except Dreadnoughts are both the firebase and the counter-assault so if you have enough variants of them you could try that.

[Hawklynn]

My main issue is the simple lack of some of the harder hitting units.

 

Two squads of standard TDA (although one does have a CML)

Two ten man squads of assault marines (I can proxy one of these, or both, as VV with no issues on distinction between the two)

One landspeeder

Two Rhinos

One TLHB razorback

 

I do have two completed dreadnoughts (one venerable and one standard) with one in the batter's box for ETL.

I also have a ten man squad of company vets to put together and paint up for ETL.

 

I know I need more, but at this moment I need to see what I can do with what I have.

 

Publishers Note: I also have some primaris elements in my army (intercessors, inceptors, captain in gravis armor) but I do not know if I am ready to try and add them to my lists just yet.

The release of the errata and what I have been reading here on the forums is making me wonder if I should go ahead and add them to a list and just run with it.

[Ebon Hand]

A good change to come out of the FAQ is the buff to cp generation from battalions and brigades. That's a good leg up to us purists who aren't into allying Imperial Guard into our lists.

 

The reason for this is because our strategems provide great bursts of strength during the game and it makes some of the more expensive ones more palatable.

 

Honor the Chapter and Only in Death does duty End were my go to's, and even more so now.

 

However, now Death to the Traitors, Orbital Bombardment as well as pumping up Relics of the Chapter or Chapter Master look a little more appealing and might see some more use in my Black Templar brigade.

 

Also keep in mind that Hellfire shells and Flakk Missile has been clarified to stack with a Cherub (if you ammo it to shoot twice the strategem still applies), so if you're the Devestat- I mean Heavy Crusader Squad type, there's a little tactic for you there.

 

My most glorious victories have come from leveraging strategems properly to turn bad situations into good ones.

 

Most players get horribly shell shocked when they think they cleverly killed your Emperor's Champion before he did anything only to eat 9 wounds on their character from his dying swings. Suddenly they're thinking about how many command points you have left to do that again.

[Honda]

What are ya'll's thoughts on this?

 

 

So in other editions when we couldn't deep strike until the second turn unless we were DA (which we aren't), how did we ever survive?

[Ishagu]

Are Black Templars actually better now when compared to other armies, as other assault themed forces will use much more conventional tactics going forward?

I mean, there's no more Chaos arriving from reserve, using Warp time and charging on turn 1. More will traverse the tabletop by conventional means, assaulting from vehicles etc, etc.

 

I think the BT have the tools to make a decent balances force. The Marine codex is a bit under-powered at the moment, hopefully CA or the next update can resolve some issues.

[redmapa]

 

What are ya'll's thoughts on this?

 

 

So in other editions when we couldn't deep strike until the second turn unless we were DA (which we aren't), how did we ever survive?

 

 

In 5th edition we had more firepower than almost any other chapter so footslogging it wasnt that bad when you could blast them and then meet them with a wall of Terminators. Besides in 5th you could null deploy on the first turn and arrive via drop pods.

 

6th and 7th I rarely played it and to be honest I dont think we "survived" in those editions so Im not sure how or if people actually played Black Templars when you got blown to pieces and then got shot with BS5 Overwatch, everyone else had formation bonuses and we had nothing so I can say those editions invalidated Black Templars completely for me.

 

@Ishagu

 

I dont think so, we still dont hit any harder than normal marines while our advantage is reliability it doesnt matter if you cant kill what you reach and as always other armies are more reliable than us, Chaos may not make turn 1 assaults but Warp Time is still a great way to engineer better chances to reach combat with nastier things than Black Templars, Blood Angels will also do the same with Wings of Fire or 3d6 charges. My point is the same I have been making for a while, its a blanket nerf and it affects everyone the same but some armies are better than others so they have better tools and power to get by whereas those that dont or that where using certain tactics to survive are hit much harder.

 

I personally have been waiting since 5th edition for something good to happen to this army, still waiting and at this point I dont expect anything because history has proven that things will only get worse.

[Medjugorje]

I don't even want new rules to buff Templars.  I'm at the point where all I can ask is that they stop taking away what I have left.

what have we left? Units which dont work as they should! You cant loose what you have already lost. The only thing would be that they put us out of the codex and at least out of the fluff.

[Medjugorje]

 

I think the BT have the tools to make a decent balances force. The Marine codex is a bit under-powered at the moment, hopefully CA or the next update can resolve some issues.

The main problem is melee in this codex, shooting is much better. And if you compare our shooting units with other armies - ...

[allegedlynerdy]

Guys, it's all the beta rules which we are complaining about! They aren't set in stone yet, we have until chapter approved to write in to GW about getting them fixed. Writing in to GW is the only way to get this stuff changed.

[Ishagu]

The beta rules don't REALLY impact general BT though. Other armies were hurt far more.

If anything, as I said, BT are better off comparatively.

 

Of course some very particular, themed lists might be damaged.

[redmapa]

The beta rules don't REALLY impact general BT though. Other armies were hurt far more.

If anything, as I said, BT are better off comparatively.

Of course some very particular, themed lists might be damaged.

Im curious, whats your reasoning? How do you play Templars now?

[Ishagu]

 

The beta rules don't REALLY impact general BT though. Other armies were hurt far more.

If anything, as I said, BT are better off comparatively.

Of course some very particular, themed lists might be damaged.

Im curious, whats your reasoning? How do you play Templars now?

You play them as before. The alpha strike that can be used against them has been nerfed - other armies that would assault you or teleport in and shoot you before you could advance won't be able to do so anymore on the initial turn. BT WILL be able to move up in their transports more effectively than before.

 

Unfortunately, they are still lacking CC punch. BT are really a mid ranged shooting army with support combat elements or secondary cc function on units. That is an unfortunate reality. At least they have access to all of the Marine and FW options...

[Ebon Hand]

I find it insulting that we Black Templar players are saying it affects us and are being told to our face that it doesn't affect us. Are we so deranged that we can't tell what we do in our own games?

 

Don't tell us it's not a problem when we experience it first hand. That it affects other armies more or less is irrelevant because the topic here is Black Templars.

In all the games of 8th I've played with Black Templars, I was alpha struck by deep strike ONCE, and this was by Obliterators. Delaying them a turn would not have helped since they came down with a screen of poxwalkers. In fact, them coming down first turn let me tackle the task of dealing with them faster, and a close combat oriented force needs to deal with such situations quickly because there are only so many turns in a game.

 

In all the other games I've played Black Templars, I've dropped in first turn in many (but not all) games. I know for a fact that in the games where I did it, taking away the first turn reserves would have definitely affected the outcome.

 

In one game I played, I watched as a 20 man squad of initiates was cut down to 4 men by non-deepstrike alpha strike. That table had sparse terrain, but I don't think +1 save would have made much of a difference, and sometimes you just can't choose your table. I'm not complaining about this; I knew it would happen when I deployed them that way. It was a calculated risk given the parameters of the game, my opponents, the table, and the options available to me. I teleported in Terminators when my 1st turn came and made him pay for it afterwards.

 

To deny Black Templars are affected is to basically ignore what we are trying to say. We lost an option. You can debate how important that tool was, but it was an important tool in a shrinking tool box.

[redmapa]

I truly believe that this idea that BT are not affected as much comes from the notion of how to build a proper army with the Codex: Space Marines, it seems like everyone else was already doing what the solution to this problem was, building groups of gunlines and buffing them with whatever characters and in that sense the only advantage we have is the Crusaders Helm which is a very good tool IF thats what you're doing and to that idea I simply ask, whats the point of playing Black Templars then? Ultramarines do it better, Imperial Fists do it better, Raven Guard are excellent, we had our niche and now its gone, now we content ourselves with sub-par options that are crippled yet again and not only that but this FAQ has turned this codex into a monobuild of sorts where every chapter is doing the same and chapter tactics might as well be irrelevant to the army building process, maybe they always were and I was simply too focused on making a garbage strategy work.

 

So yeah, if we had never tried to make a melee force then I can see how we were not 'screwed as much' but then you would fail to see the real landscape of this army, the Chapter Tactic, the characters, the troops, it all adds up to the idea of an assault force but it is incongruent with the reality of the codex and the landscape of the game, regardless we made it work but now we are forced to play like everyone else and that does not match what our special rules may lead us to.

 

As Black Ultramarines we were not hurt as much, as Black Templars we certainly were denied any chance to get any viable assault force.

[MeltaRange]

I'm genuinely curious - (this is not a troll) wouldn't BT be hurt badly by armies like Nids/Bloodletters/Grey Knights who could DS right in your face Turn 1 and charge YOU, rendering your Chapter Tactic useless?

 

Now, with that threat gone, isn't it kind of a buff that you can play more midfield with things like Terminators/Dreadnoughts and have a chance to threaten opponents with both shooting and charges?

[Wargamer]

I'm going to advise you do precisely what I have done - email GW and urge them to consider all armies when proposing rule changes, not just the top 1% of lists dominating Grand Tournament. Make it clear we do not want the entire game changed based solely off those results, and that we expect GW to make changes that strengthen weak armies (ie: the ones nobody ever brings to a tournament) not just nerf the latest force breaking the competitive scene.

[redmapa]

I'm genuinely curious - (this is not a troll) wouldn't BT be hurt badly by armies like Nids/Bloodletters/Grey Knights who could DS right in your face Turn 1 and charge YOU, rendering your Chapter Tactic useless?

 

Lets agree on something, Black Templars are a bad army, anything would hurt them just as bad or worse than how other armies are hurt just as any nerf would also hurt them just as much or worse than other armies and at this point the only people that still play this army are the ones that truly love it and what we tried was to make assault function but our premise has always been that we lose versus any real close combat army, that idea has not changed since the codex dropped but now not only do we lose more against those armies but we also lose more against the armies that we could beat from time to time.

 

Again, I am curious HOW you would run Templars now, as an outsider whats YOUR idea because you seem to be quite knowledgeable about it and I dont mean that in a condescending manner but you all seem to be so sure about how things are for this army so please enlighten me, I am honestly curious.

[MeltaRange]

 

I'm genuinely curious - (this is not a troll) wouldn't BT be hurt badly by armies like Nids/Bloodletters/Grey Knights who could DS right in your face Turn 1 and charge YOU, rendering your Chapter Tactic useless?

 

Again, I am curious HOW you would run Templars now, as an outsider whats YOUR idea because you seem to be quite knowledgeable about it and I dont mean that in a condescending manner but you all seem to be so sure about how things are for this army so please enlighten me, I am honestly curious.

 

 

I'm really trying not to be a jerk - frankly, I was absolutely SHOCKED at the kickback from Templar players in particular to this change.  In the thread I created in the main Space Marine forum for example, the BT players in there seem as fanatical as the fluff indicates.  

 

Also, I am not pretending to know how to play BT.  I have never played a single game as that Chapter Tactic though I have played UM, RG, WS, and IH (I have a custom chapter, and love to try new things...frankly though I would never play it as BT because it wouldn't feel right to say "I'm a BT successor chapter!") and I also play BA and Deathwatch. 

 

But to answer your question, knowing the BT Chapter Tactic, isn't it a bane of your army to play against another army that is capable of rending your CT completely useless by charging YOU?  Genestealers coming out of the Tyrgon hole, Bloodletter Bombs, Death Company decending into your face, Howling Banshees from the webway...hell even RG Assault Terminators Striking from the Shadows?  That's how it seems from afar.  Just asking.

[Ebon Hand]

I'm genuinely curious - (this is not a troll) wouldn't BT be hurt badly by armies like Nids/Bloodletters/Grey Knights who could DS right in your face Turn 1 and charge YOU, rendering your Chapter Tactic useless?

 

Now, with that threat gone, isn't it kind of a buff that you can play more midfield with things like Terminators/Dreadnoughts and have a chance to threaten opponents with both shooting and charges?

I only got to play Tyranids only once, and they did get a turn 1 charge off on me to do some damage but it wasn't the end of the world in my case.

 

My feeling on that is that, while of course you don't WANT them to get the charge off (for obvious reasons), it's not as bad as being shot at because if your army is built for cc, you will get to swing back in cc and do damage back if you survive. You can heroic intervene, your cc weapons get use, it's a whole different ballpark for us. If your army is built for cc, cc is where you want to be. Also, you still get to deepstrike in and counter charge if you want and that deep strike can react to wherever help is needed. Or you have the option to just deploy on the table centrally and counter charge that way.

[allegedlynerdy]

Guys, I agree that this sucks, but I think we need to take a look at the unsung middletier champion of 8th edition- Mechanized. Rhino rushing is definitely a valid tactic, and now would work even more in our favor with alphastriking being less practical.

 

It's not god tier, but nothing with Templars besides making it a shooting army is. It's our best bet

[Ishagu]

So how have BT been adversely affected by the FAQ?

Are lots of people running Terminators teleporting in?

[Race Bannon]

Man, if Terminators are a thing for BT, then I need to repaint my black armor :lol:

[Firepower]

Terminators, Vanguard, and Drop Pod Dreads are a mainstay, yes.  Many Templar lists absolutely need this first turn threat to function (mine included).  Throwing it out of the pram forces us to abandon yet another niche style and moves us towards the dreaded 'Black Ultramarines' state.  I hate that phrase, and it's been thrown around way too liberally, but the generic thrust isn't far off: the more we lose, the less point there is to 'Templars playing as Templars.' 

 

I think some of the misunderstanding is simply from ignorance.  We as a community have spent ages with each new rule change and edition, most of which have been far from kind to us, hammering out lists to make our army function as many of us want it to.  It's a discussion I'm willing to bet most folks don't eavesdrop on, and so are not aware of just how much this hurts us.

 

Look at it this way: the argument being presented is 'Well OP army A could do more damage via DS to you, so this is a win for you.'  Well, Army A typically has six other ways that it can kick our teeth in, while we lose one of only two or three general list structures that we have, and it is widely regarded as the best one.  Deep Striking our heavy hitters isn't just a matter of getting that potential 9" charge to 'exploit' our Chapter Tactic.  It's a necessary way to control the board and box in an opponent so the rest of the list has a snowball's chance of making it to the front line without getting shot to hell.  Throw 4 Rhinos or footslogging squads at your typical strong list without those screens and see what happens to them, regardless of whether you're up against a melee or shooting specialized army.  In the former, you get obliterated before you can get close, and in the latter you can no longer control who gets charged and when nearly as well.

 

Templars are a weak army, especially if you gear it towards CC.  Any crutch taken out of our toybox hurts us more than stronger armies with a lot more toys they can use as alternatives.  This rule came about because of tournament results, so let me ask you, how often do you even see Templars at tournaments, much less in the winner's circle?  Melee Templars?  Without allies?  Not often, because it's not a tournie strength list.  

 

If one list is great and one list is mediocre, and you take away the tool that made them that way, then you end up with the great guys still being mediocre, and the mediocre guys being worthless.  If we're using the DS just to stay alive against every army, it's not a salve to point out that the one army that caused this whole meta shift gets hurt, too.

 

As I said, a lot of this seems to be rooted in simply not knowing how we do things, or why, or how often we have to roll from punches like this without benefits in return.  It's genuine confusion on your part, but many of us feel more like it's pissing on our heads and calling it rain.