AlmightyWalrus Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 To build on what Firepower said, it's not necessarily that it's bad for us from a winning-games perspective, it's that it's yet another thing we used to be able to do that we can no longer do. I started this game with Templars back in 5th and every iteration of our rules since then has been a disappointment. Thus, to have even more stuff taken away from us when we're already struggling comes close to kicking a man when he's down. It's kinda like how Grey Knights feel at the moment, except they haven't gone three editions in a row where people insist that they're better off this way and that they should be happy they get any rules at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebon Hand Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 If you want to look at the silver lining of all this, here's one possibly good thing you come of this. If gw has a vision for how things should work, kicking the crutch out from under us is one way to truly get a sense for how Black Templars and Space Marines in general are doing right now. I'm expecting the non-gunline armies to move towards a high speed or high durability approach to dealing with gunlines. What are our options in this area? Landspeeders- really high cost Bikes- decent choice but not particularly powerful in shooting or cc Rhino rush- durable against small arms but limited by how good our troops are for their cost (which is not that great) Drop pods- too expensive and have to come turn 2 Centurions- durable but slow and outrageously expensive Storm Ravens - good Assault Marines- not enough damage for their cost Vanguards- fast and do damage but not that durable Terminators - slow and have to come turn 2 Land Raiders - durable but have to build your list around it Contemptors- fast and durable, solid choice Aside from those close combat options, we have our usual good shooting units like Sternguard, Predators, Sicarans, Leviathan Dreadnoughts etc. Hopefully we can show GW where we are in relation to other armies and we can get some points drops to make our armies more diverse, which is what GW wants to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyWalrus Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 You missed Scout Bikers, one of our best anti-chaff units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Rhino rushing is definitely a valid tactic But is it really? Problem is you're spending a lot of points on those Rhinos. Even with two storm bolters the Rhino's firepower isn't something to write home about. I'm not saying a few Rhinos is bad or anything, but spamming a lot of them doesn't feel practical currently. It may take the enemy a while to kill them unless they have plenty of heavy weapons, but even so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyWalrus Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 And then there's the issue that the units in the Rhinoes are pretty meh too. Rhino rushing Berzerkers into the enemy? Sure, that's scary. Rhino rushing Crusader Squads (or even Vanguard Veterans)? Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmapa Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 I do believe the current rules will push fast elements and armies into relevance but they will also force certain armies to castle up and shell with almost impunity and I think the Space Marine will make far better castles than a really fast army though you can certainly make both, while C:SM will also struggle against really shooty armies I dont think theres much to do in that area, I can see the new lists being based on something like Bolter Aggressor+Hellblaster+Lieutenant+Razorback, thats 400pts and can hurt a lot of things in the mid-range, having a lot of smaller fire bases might be a good idea to split your enemy and simply reinforce the idea of MSU which I think is very beneficial to our codex. OR Inceptors+Assault Marines/Vanguard Veterans, its probably the crappier option because Assault Marines suck but they are useful to eat incoming charges and deal with chaff and the Vanguard Vets can also be there to add some assaulting power. This also runs around 400pts and can be fairly decent against most targets. Now I think we all agree that this FAQ makes the already obvious flaws of our codex much worse and long range armies WILL reign supreme and theres not much we can do, there arent a lot of hard hitting artillery that we can use to touch those units and I think our only answer is flyers or simply killing everything else. Dreadnoughts are also a good choice in my opinion but now you need several versions of them but ultimately I think I need to see how everyone else has been running this codex because at least to me this FAQ has changed the paradigm with which I view the codex though my project of Jump Pack infantry out the butt will carry on but I certainly wont be buying another box of Reivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Well yeah, the whole Space Marine Codex has issues. That's nothing new now. It's not just that things are a tad too expensive, the whole thing is poorly designed for this edition since it's still mostly the same as in older editions. The options available are bad or just okay-ish? Yeah. The things you used before the beta rule weren't much better either. It's a general problem and not just thanks to the beta rule. No matter what you do, Space Marines won't be a top tier army on tournaments currently, with or without the beta rule. The codex is still good enough for games with friends in a casual or semi-competetive environment and the beta rule doesn't really change that. Just the kind of units you'd need changed but that's hardly surprising with such a core rule change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebon Hand Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 You missed Scout Bikers, one of our best anti-chaff units. Yeah bikes of any kind are pretty good and will be in demand after the changes. Inceptors and Primaris in general I didn't comment on since I have no first hand experience with them, but I imagine they aren't doing too terrible. I have seen Ultra primarus put up a good fight (Hellblasters are vicious) and our Crusader Helm does let us buff them from further away but no access to transports except hover Land Raider, so they tend towards a more static style of gameplay that is sort of at odds with what traditional Black Templars like to do. With Dark Eldar now on the prowl with their new Disintegrators... I think Primaris without their hover tank are going to be having a tough go since multi damage weapons are their bane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 So let’s get a couple things about the Black Templar Chapter, espacially with the question of our chapter tactics vaue, straight. They ‘value’ or strongth of the BT Chapter, is in having the single best Tactical Squad Equivalents in the game bar none. (Grey Hunter give us a run for their money, Grey Hunters are more mechanically akin to Non-Zerker Cult Troops and Ordos Militant then Tacticals or Chaos Marines). The squad has the same raw offensive potential as an equivalent unit of unupgraded Vangaurd (assuming equal Neo/Init) in melee and has the Firepower Equivalents to 2 Heavy Devies when outside Rapid and 3 Heavy Devies when in Rapid. The corner stone of that unit is the strategic list building flexibility. And our armies are essentially build to support that Squad. Deep Strikers, make it so Tide Squads can cross the board or provide the ‘push’ for MSU FauxDevi Squads or Fire Support to deal with deadly backrow. The 6-4 ‘Tactical’ Crusader Squad, hallmark of BT Rhino Rush Lists (well actually 5/4). Are useless, they lack the weight of dice and durability provided by Tide or concentrated Firepower in Fire Support. And worse it’s functionally just a two marine/scout cheaper 10 Man ‘Tactical’ (you save 21 Points). The 6-4 ‘Tactical’ Crusaders have their place, but Intercessors are that but better and cheaper. And this goes back to the issue of Deep Strikes and why it affects us. Our core army (in better BT Lists) is based and built around our supporting whatever your preferred Crusader Squad setup. And in both of the good setups (Fire Support or Tide) a Deep Strike component perfectly complimented that. So even in cases where our tactic was useless, the enemy coming to engage up close and personal was exactly where we wanted them. As our Fire Support numbering about 100 Points could easily be spammed in 6+ Units. So we set a few of those squads to receive and then once they are murdered, our others can blast them. Then charge because the squad despite having 1 heavy and two specials, has 9 attacks a squad (or the same as an Intercessor or Tactical Squad minus Sgt). While our tide Squads can receive he charge and lock the enemy as we hit them with our reserves or characters. Whom can be kept safely out of charge (Helm) or are terrifying in their own right (Teeth Character and Emperor’s Champion). This change leave the various Crusader Squads as sitting ducks for enemy. Espacially in the case of tide Squads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyWalrus Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Crusaders only match Vanguard Veterans in damage output/point if you consider pistols equivalent to melee attacks, which they aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Sigh it’s 24 Points for 4 Melee and 2 Range vs 16 or 18 for total of 4. If we just include Melee it’s 1 per 6 points for Crusaders, while for Vangaurd it’s either 4 or 4.25 Points per an attack. However the Crusaders can threaten (shoot) at 12” and over watch. And every 4 Overwatch is akin to 1 non-Overwatch. So we can reduce the Points by 5.66 (sense only overwatching 50% and only once) and unlike Vangaurd you can expect to get 1.5 rounds of shooting with a pistol. Shoot then if you had lost 50% of your guys. So given two pistol shots. We’ll say reasonable expect a shot counts for 0.75 over 2 rounds. We can go through do the math of expected losses and influences per round attack and expected value of attack. But over course of 3 rounds, 2 of ours and 1 enemy, 2 Pistols worth of shooting and 1 Overwatch you are paying 4.20-4.50 point for every STR 4 AP 0 attack that connects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted April 20, 2018 Author Share Posted April 20, 2018 Rhino rushing is definitely a valid tactic But is it really? Problem is you're spending a lot of points on those Rhinos. Even with two storm bolters the Rhino's firepower isn't something to write home about. I'm not saying a few Rhinos is bad or anything, but spamming a lot of them doesn't feel practical currently. It may take the enemy a while to kill them unless they have plenty of heavy weapons, but even so. i never lost with this list. And I dont play just fun-games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyWalrus Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 But Vanguard synergizes much better with Helbrecht and Grimaldus, as well as getting more attacks if you Honour the Chapter, while Pistols can use Storm of Fire if your Warlord has that trait. Further, shooting when you're about to charge threatens to increase the charge range, depending on what you're intending to charge. It's true that mixed Crusader Squads match Vanguard Veterans in the output of S4 AP0 attacks per point in a vacuum. We still need to take into account the fact that pistol shots aren't melee attacks, because it actually matters. Crusaders are more durable by virtue of having more wounds, while the Vanguard Veterans in practice have a stronger punch. As soon as the deck isn't stacked in favour of the Crusader Squad it falls behind in damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted April 20, 2018 Author Share Posted April 20, 2018 i dont talk about melee (although i would prefer that if GW realize that we want a melee army) - i play lists with 6x5 Cruasders with Plasma, combi-Plasma and a Lascannon. Helbrecht a Lieutenant.... Black Templars: Battalion Detachment - 844 Punkte*************** 2 HQ *************** The Emperor's Champion - - - > 75 PunkteHigh Marshal Helbrecht - - - > 170 Punkte*************** 3 Standard *************** Crusader Squad5 Initiates, 2 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol, Plasma gun, Lascannon+ Sword Brother, 1 x Power sword, 1 x Combi-plasma -> 19 Pkt. - - - > 122 PunkteCrusader Squad5 Initiates, 2 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol, Plasma gun, Lascannon+ Sword Brother, 1 x Power sword, 1 x Combi-plasma -> 19 Pkt. - - - > 122 PunkteCrusader Squad5 Initiates, 2 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol, Plasma gun, Lascannon, 1 Neophyt, 1 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol+ Sword Brother, 1 x Power sword, 1 x Combi-plasma -> 19 Pkt. - - - > 133 Punkte*************** 3 Transporter *************** Rhino, Storm bolter - - - > 74 PunkteRhino, Storm bolter - - - > 74 PunkteRhino, Storm bolter - - - > 74 PunkteBlack Templars: Patrol Detachment - 820 Punkte*************** 2 HQ *************** 1 Lieutenant, 1 x Combi-melta, 1 x Power sword - - - > 83 PunkteCaptain, Jump Pack+ Combi-melta, Thunder hammer -> 40 Pkt. - - - > 133 Punkte (relic with 2+ and 3++)*************** 3 Standard *************** Crusader Squad5 Initiates, 2 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol, Plasma gun, Lascannon+ Sword Brother, 1 x Power sword, 1 x Combi-plasma -> 19 Pkt. - - - > 122 PunkteCrusader Squad5 Initiates, 2 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol, Meltagun, Lascannon+ Sword Brother, 1 x Power sword, 1 x Combi-melta -> 23 Pkt. - - - > 130 PunkteCrusader Squad5 Initiates, 2 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol, Meltagun, Lascannon+ Sword Brother, 1 x Power sword, 1 x Combi-melta -> 23 Pkt. - - - > 130 Punkte*************** 3 Transporter *************** Rhino, Storm bolter - - - > 74 PunkteRhino, Storm bolter - - - > 74 PunkteRhino, Storm bolter - - - > 74 PunkteIMPERIUM: Vanguard Detachment - 335 Punkte*************** 1 HQ *************** Captain, Jump Pack+ Combi-melta, Power sword -> 23 Pkt. - - - > 116 Punkte (relic burning sword)*************** 5 Elite *************** Honour Guard, 2 x Power sword - - - > 50 PunkteHonour Guard, 2 x Power sword - - - > 50 PunkteHonour Guard, 2 x Power sword - - - > 50 Punkte3 Cenobyte Servitors - - - > 6 PunkteCompany Ancient - - - > 63 Punkte (relic banner)Gesamtpunkte der Armee : 1999Powerlevel der Armee : 99Kommandopunkte der Armee : 14-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 Guys I'd like to remind people to keep it civil, just because you are upset about a change is no reason to lash out at other Frater because you feel they don't understand because they aren't BT players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allegedlynerdy Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 I'm not saying the rhino rush is perfect, I'm saying it's one of our best options, probably better than footslogging even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegir_Einarsson Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 Rhino or razorback with bike captain to re-roll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 @Medjugorie why would you take a patrol detachment there? You've got enough to just make it another battalion and get 5 more cp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 Probably just a missclick. Makes no change to have it as Patrol instead of Battalion lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmapa Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 @Medjugorie whats with all those rhinos? You only need 1 to shield the honor guard and you might be better off adding more firepower if youre building a gunline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 In 8th there is no more vehicle damage table and "weapon destroyed" annoyance. Every chasis could fight to death with all its barrels. So "pure transport" became significantly worse than "armed transport". To shave some points somewhere, for upgrading several rhinos to razorbacks, would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 One reason I'm not so how on Rhinos nowadays other than the points cost is lack of fire points. Really not sure why they did that. I really ought to build a twin-plasma mount for a Razorback though, lascannon + 2x plasma gun + storm bolter is a decent amount of firepower for a transport, though it of course does come at a cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmapa Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 Im not too crazy on Rhinos either but they are our better choice if you want to move close combat crusaders, the issue is that crusaders are not that good and 200pt per squad gets expensive fast and another "problem" is that the better close combat units in our codex can all deep strike or dont really need a Rhino so, to me, that also devalues Rhinos a bit. If you wanted to really make Rhinos work then you can pack 3-4 with Crusaders and have them supported by Dreadnoughts or Jump Infantry, perhaps Razorbacks or Predators too, instead of creating a hammer & anvil you can rush forth with a really big hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 That cost may be that overcharging a plas Razorback destroys it outright according to the Index FAQ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted April 21, 2018 Author Share Posted April 21, 2018 Probably just a missclick. Makes no change to have it as Patrol instead of Battalion lol exact... look how many CP i have^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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