the big fat errata(Released!)

[Medjugorje]

In 8th there is no more vehicle damage table and "weapon destroyed" annoyance. Every chasis could fight to death with all its barrels. So "pure transport" became significantly worse than "armed transport". To shave some points somewhere, for upgrading several rhinos to razorbacks, would be nice.

 

why should i pay more 50 ? Or even the dead horse (Assault Cannon) - no, Rhinos are very good. Against Melee Units you can block perfect. you can hide small Units and you dont loose that much firepower in the first round.

Im not too crazy on Rhinos either but they are our better choice if you want to move close combat crusaders, the issue is that crusaders are not that good and 200pt per squad gets expensive fast and another "problem" is that the better close combat units in our codex can all deep strike or dont really need a Rhino so, to me, that also devalues Rhinos a bit. If you wanted to really make Rhinos work then you can pack 3-4 with Crusaders and have them supported by Dreadnoughts or Jump Infantry, perhaps Razorbacks or Predators too, instead of creating a hammer & anvil you can rush forth with a really big hammer.

 

like i said... there are more things with rhinos you can do than just transport. Dont forget... you have 6 special/heavy weapons in it.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Im not too crazy on Rhinos either but they are our better choice if you want to move close combat crusaders, the issue is that crusaders are not that good and 200pt per squad gets expensive fast and another "problem" is that the better close combat units in our codex can all deep strike or dont really need a Rhino so, to me, that also devalues Rhinos a bit. If you wanted to really make Rhinos work then you can pack 3-4 with Crusaders and have them supported by Dreadnoughts or Jump Infantry, perhaps Razorbacks or Predators too, instead of creating a hammer & anvil you can rush forth with a really big hammer.

 

I find that the main advantage of using Rhinos isn't in getting Crusaders into the fray, since they can't really do much in a 10-man squad... what I find useful sometimes is to use the mixed transport rule to it's full effect, have the Crusaders be a smaller 7-8 man squad just to catch overwatch and use the Honour Guard since they come in squads of 2 to actually deal the killing blows in melee, they aren't the cheapest options, but they are very durable, especially with an Apothecary around to keep them healthy and maybe a character to make the small squad deadlier... it complements the small size of the squad very well and helps in getting some nasty blows in from the squad.

 

Having screening units are nice, but I never found the appeal of Primaris Marines in the first place, so this doesn't really affect me much in terms of using Reivers... (ugly tall models as they are...) but this does affect my use of Drop Pods, which were already overpriced in the first place... I just hope that they either drop a tons worth in points, since they lost their niche already, or just have that Alpha Strike ability that lets them Deep Strike turn one similar to how Genestealer cults and Ravenguards kept their Reserve Turn one shenanigans... otherwise, Drop Pods will definitely be another dead horse to bury...

[Aegir_Einarsson]

But 3 rhinos And LRC fall of crusaders with helbrecht And Chaplain inside it is some serius melee punch.

 

Honour guard is Nice idea as well. Nice!

[Panzer]

Just be careful the Rhino doesn't get surrounded by chaff or your embarked unit is screwed. Tyranids like to do that a lot. ^^

[tvih]

Just be careful the Rhino doesn't get surrounded by chaff or your embarked unit is screwed. Tyranids like to do that a lot. ^^

 

One of my least favorite things about this edition. Well OK, I guess it was kinda the same previously too, but it's kinda ridiculous you can surround, say, a Land Raider with a cheap unit, make unable to even fall back, and really it won't kill anything in melee thanks to WS6+. Then you can't even shoot at those surrounding units, the only way is to charge them with something. "Oh look, grots are blocking out path, I guess we're stuck here forever!"  Maybe shooting armies don't need further boosts, but it still feels both illogical and uncinematic when you have big tanks unable to shoot or drive away from units surrounding them, or even passengers unable to shoot at the surrounding units from fire points. And that even if you aren't surrounded, a vehicle even as might as a LR can't even shoot when it "falls back" as if it couldn't just drive away (at least the damn Spartan CAN do that).

[Panzer]

Yeah I think non-FLY tanks need something like tankshock back so you can't make them completely useless like that. Especially transports in more elite armies.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Bring back Tank Shock!

[SydonianDragoon404]

Or just give the more expensive, large transport vehicles like the Land Raider the ability to shoot at enemies within 1'' .

[Aegir_Einarsson]

like baneblade have? I thougjt about that it might be LR only as it is biggest tank/transport in whole ground SM army:)..... I don't count this freaky FW 40 capacity model for about 1000 points itself:P

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Land Raiders should have the Behemoth special rule, where it can Fall Back and shoot at the same turn... it doesn't make sense why it won't be able to do it...

[Ishagu]

Have you guys heard of the Spartan Tank from Forgeword? I'd argue it's well worth it over a regular landraider.

[Canadian_F_H]

Very little about 8th edition and vehicles makes sense to me... but I've not really been in the loop lately.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Have you guys heard of the Spartan Tank from Forgeword? I'd argue it's well worth it over a regular landraider.

 

The issue is that, LRCs literally shout Black Templars though... Spartans sound really Minotaurs more than anything else, but most of us here wish that our iconic options that is exclusively Templars could be worth their weight in points once more...

 

Kind of at least a friendly tip towards the fact that they rolled us into one of the most notoriously boring Codices of any edition, but instead we get the "at least you guys weren't completely squatted from 40k" treatment

[Canadian_F_H]

Yeah, telling us to use Spartans instead of lrcs is like telling us to ditch crusader squads for primaris marines...

 

If you are telling us that, then you are missing the point of this conversation.

[Medjugorje]

to be a black Ultramarine is like being squatted

[SydonianDragoon404]

The only thing I can really see use of a bunch of Crusaders in Rhinos is doing the clowncar strategy. Take a bunch of mix/maxed 5 man squads that all have 1 special, 1 heavy, 1 combi. I mean, it could work, but it would have very little staying power. Once those marines jump out, they're dinner. The firepower they put out will not cause enough damage to make a dent in a decently optimized army if you are fighting against Guard, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Mechanicus, etc because their armies are cheaper. 

 

Right now, other armies have both numbers and efficiency of firepower over us. If other armies are going to outnumber us, then their units should not be as efficient as they are. Some of the synergies available to some of these armies for the price is getting ridiculous. 

[Medjugorje]

Or just give the more expensive, large transport vehicles like the Land Raider the ability to shoot at enemies within 1'' .

 

at least with one weapon or the Ultramarine ability or some special rules that he can fight in close combat .

Another possibility could be to disembark after the LR has driven 6" - it would be more the assaultvehicle it should be.

 

In the end it would be okay to drop the costs substantially.

 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I find the worst part of the LRC is the almost pointless Frag Launchers, in their current form they make perfect sense on an Ironclad, or something designed to charge enemies, but charging an LRC is a sign that things have gone pretty badly wrong. Losing a turn's shooting at rapid range is just not worth the chance of a minimal amount of mortal wounds.

[SydonianDragoon404]

The only time frag launchers have ever worked for me was when I was playing a game against Grey Knights, Kaldor Draigo was down to 2 wounds left, we both had very little left on the table, and I had to essentially kill Draigo to win the game. It was an all or nothing scenario, so I charged in, got the 4+, got the 2 mortal wounds. Only time it has ever come into play for me. 

[tvih]

The Spartan pretty much is what the LR should be rules-wise. I don't feel the Spartan is particularly un-Templary just because it isn't a LRC, though. Fluff-wise Templars have had LRCs for a short time, while a Spartan would be a revered relic from the founding of the chapter. Certainly not a spammable unit for that reason though, as well as for points reasons.

But yes, LRC is problematic (as is LRR). To shoot its weapons it needs to be close. Of course it needs to be close to deliver its passengers too, but a regular LR or a Spartan can withdraw after disembark and stay in weapons range, LRC can't if it wants to shoot efficiently. And that can easily leave it vulnerable to charges and then it is stuck being useless in combat or falls back and can't shoot... and the enemy may be able to charge it again next turn. Ridiculous. For the frag launchers it wouldn't hurt if they could be used for overwatch too, perhaps even with better BS (or simply with the same 4+ check as when charging).

[Ishagu]

The Spartan and the Repulsors are the only large Tanks that function well at the moment with Marines due to the fact they can leave combat without having their shooting neutered for a turn. The Repulsor is unfortunately limited to Primaris units and the Landraider to the regular Marine type (these artificial limitations really damage the codex).

 

The big issue with a Landraider as a delivery vehicle is the fact that you move it towards the enemy, making it easier for enemy units to lock it in combat.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

I miss the glorious days when the LRC actually was an assault vehicle...

 

Charging that LRC straight into the heretic's lines, hurricanes blasting, popping assault launchers dropping ramp and unleash a horde of righteous fury upon whatevers left of the enemy...  oh the memories  

[Panzer]

Former assault vehicles really should have gotten something else as replacement now that everyone can disembark and move&charge anyway. Being allowed to move first and then disembark would've been awesome for example. Move the Landraider 10" turn 1, disembark 3", move 6" and charge 7" = 26" threat range for Crusader Squads and the Landraider is still far enough away from the enemy lines to not get made useless by charging chaff so it can now after delivering its load stay back and shoot the expensive weapons you paid for.

All that sounds too strong? Well it does cost 300+ points in an army with lots of other expensive units after all. That's almost as expensive as Guilliman and more expensive than a Stormraven.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Nice idea.

[UnkyHamHam]

I feel like I need to apologize on behalf of the rest of the codex for weighing you guys down. In almost every edition, including this one, I've felt very similar in regards to the Angels always being better versions of us. I've decided it's the price I pay for playing the army I want. But no one ever asked you to pay that price. Just kind of got forced on you.

It looks especially bad when the Ultramarines come in and tell you how to get good. Sadly, it gets lost on some of us sometimes that we have a LOT of advantages with arguably one of the best, if not the best, tactics/trait/Strat/relic combo...7 special characters, including the only scout commander, tank commander, PRIMARCH, and even the amazing super witch that is Tigurius.

I will say, try not to be too harsh on us. We are just doing what Ultras have always done best, adapt. I hope we can figure out a way bring something constructive to the Templars.

 

Just needed to voice my thoughts.