Greater Good Today

[chapter master 454]

Firstly, I was poking fun at them giving her a pulse pistol, the singular most redundant wargear option in the Tau codex. Not a complaint, just a fun jab.

 

Secondly: yea, I do hope drones get changed. Right now the main issue is the whole "shoot the drones first" is actually extremely negative to some of their positions that make only shield drones viable. Stealth drones are the big example where the ghostkeel can haul rear but because of the drones needs to play hopscotch with terrain or have some extremely gamey modeling done to let it go about the board freely. Shielded missile drones really just need to be dirt cheap and have actual good BS (just 4+ would be fine).

 

Tau are riding the coat-tails of triptide drone spam lists right now, would be nice if other things were viable (like say...Ballistic Skill 3 Battle suits across the board maybe?)

[Bryan Blaire]

Crisis suit arms have retractable fingers on all models. From shas’ui to Shas’o.

Yes, they do. What does that have to do with the four arm configuration?

[Panzer]

 

I’m gonna throw out another wild guess. Her drones will be part of her unit much like how Aun’va’s bodyguard is part of his whole unit.

 

The write up said they’re supposed to add tactical use to her kit. They won’t be much use if they come down with her then form their own unit. They’ll just be shot off the board.

 

I think GW is also going to change how drones work in this book as well. My wild guess is that Drones that come with units will be part of that squad and won’t form a new one. However you can still do savior protocols in the same fashion but only for wounds in that squad. And I would assume even if wounds are already allocated to a unit other than the drone it can still be done.

 

I doubt that. Being able to shoot Drones first without having to shoot the though battlesuit is supposed to be way of counterplay for the opponent. It's INTENDED to work like that. Especially for things like Stealth Drones, Grav-Inhib Drones etc. Making them part of the unit would be a huge buff for us and probably more frustrating for the opponent than the current situation. No way GW is doing that.

Not to mention that the PA books don't really touch existing stuff apart from a Datasheet or two. These books are mostly about adding new stuff.

 

I can understand the potential AI thing, and that would be fine, but then why does she even need her real arms out there - it could be like a Crisis Suit, where she's 100% in the center pod. No need for real arms if all her weapons are on the two artificial arms anyway.

 

I think that's my real issue with the model - why aren't the weapons split amongst all four arms? Put the minor weapons on her real arms, the heavy weapons on the artificial arms, and then that way if she needs to not use her concentration for attacks, then at least she's only losing a bit of combat effectiveness.

 

Yeah, give her original pair of arms something else to do than using the artificial pair of arms. The way it is right now is just dumb. If your arms in power armour just use similarly sized artificial arms right above them then there's no point to those artificial arms in the first place.

 

Luckily from the sprue it seems all the arms are attached via ball joints (with stegs or whatever it's called for positioning like with the Ghostkeel legs) so it should be possible to adjust the pose. I'll see if I can get a more interesting pose and potentially put the Light Missile Pod or Flechette Launcher on her pair of original arms.

[Guest Triszin]

You could flip the elbows on the second pair of arms to have more threating look?

 

I can't wait to get my hands on the model, lots of interesting news stuff

[TheMostGood]

 

Crisis suit arms have retractable fingers on all models. From shas’ui to Shas’o.

Yes, they do. What does that have to do with the four arm configuration?

You may have missed what I said earlier.

 

Imagine you’re trying to play an RTS while playing paintball at the same time. It would be near impossible.

 

I’d you had a set of robotic arms shooting for you while you macro and micro your forces, you’ll be able to do more with less distraction.

[TheMostGood]

 

 

I’m gonna throw out another wild guess. Her drones will be part of her unit much like how Aun’va’s bodyguard is part of his whole unit.

 

The write up said they’re supposed to add tactical use to her kit. They won’t be much use if they come down with her then form their own unit. They’ll just be shot off the board.

 

I think GW is also going to change how drones work in this book as well. My wild guess is that Drones that come with units will be part of that squad and won’t form a new one. However you can still do savior protocols in the same fashion but only for wounds in that squad. And I would assume even if wounds are already allocated to a unit other than the drone it can still be done.

 

 

I doubt that. Being able to shoot Drones first without having to shoot the though battlesuit is supposed to be way of counterplay for the opponent. It's INTENDED to work like that. Especially for things like Stealth Drones, Grav-Inhib Drones etc. Making them part of the unit would be a huge buff for us and probably more frustrating for the opponent than the current situation. No way GW is doing that.

Not to mention that the PA books don't really touch existing stuff apart from a Datasheet or two. These books are mostly about adding new stuff.

That’s how it’s supposed to work, but that’s not how it works in the vast majority of games played. Both competitive and casual.

 

People get a boat load of shield drones and then hide them out of LOS. A good tau player makes it so you never actually get to shoot at the drones and instead kill them off through savior protocols.

 

Which as I mentioned creates a relatively unfun and boring playstyle in regards to riptides.

 

It compounds and makes other units ineffective or weaker because of that limitation too. The ghostkeel has to bunny hop and babysit stealth drones.

 

Guardian drones are next to useless for Breacher squads.

 

Pathfinder drones would just hide out of LOS anyway and be u targetable like shield drones. At least with this change they’d be attached to the pathfinder squad so you’d eventually get to them.

Edited January 5, 2020 by TheMostGood

[Panzer]

 

 

I’m gonna throw out another wild guess. Her drones will be part of her unit much like how Aun’va’s bodyguard is part of his whole unit.

 

The write up said they’re supposed to add tactical use to her kit. They won’t be much use if they come down with her then form their own unit. They’ll just be shot off the board.

 

I think GW is also going to change how drones work in this book as well. My wild guess is that Drones that come with units will be part of that squad and won’t form a new one. However you can still do savior protocols in the same fashion but only for wounds in that squad. And I would assume even if wounds are already allocated to a unit other than the drone it can still be done.

 

I doubt that. Being able to shoot Drones first without having to shoot the though battlesuit is supposed to be way of counterplay for the opponent. It's INTENDED to work like that. Especially for things like Stealth Drones, Grav-Inhib Drones etc. Making them part of the unit would be a huge buff for us and probably more frustrating for the opponent than the current situation. No way GW is doing that.

Not to mention that the PA books don't really touch existing stuff apart from a Datasheet or two. These books are mostly about adding new stuff.

That’s how it’s supposed to work, but that’s not how it works in the vast majority of games played. Both competitive and casual.

 

People get a boat load of shield drones and then hide them out of LOS. A good tau player makes it so you never actually get to shoot at the drones and instead kill them off through savior protocols.

 

Which as I mentioned creates a relatively unfun and boring playstyle in regards to riptides.

 

It compounds and makes other units ineffective or weaker because of that limitation too. The ghostkeel has to bunny hop and babysit stealth drones.

 

Guardian drones are next to useless for Breacher squads.

 

Pathfinder drones would just hide out of LOS anyway and be u targetable like shield drones. At least with this change they’d be attached to the pathfinder squad so you’d eventually get to them.

 

 

I mean, if you prefer to shoot at my T7 models with your anti-infantry that would otherwise be a good choice against Drones...be my guest? I'd love for my Drones to become even tougher without having them hide out of line of sight lol

[Bryan Blaire]

You may have missed what I said earlier.

Imagine you’re trying to play an RTS while playing paintball at the same time. It would be near impossible.

I’d you had a set of robotic arms shooting for you while you macro and micro your forces, you’ll be able to do more with less distraction.

I didn't miss what you said. You are making an unfounded assumption that you need available fingers to "macro and micro your forces" on a pair of arms sticking out of a suit.

 

You seem to be missing the fact that there is still zero point to having four arms in that scenario, it is in fact a detractor - here's why:

 

If Shadowsun needs her actual arms to "macro and micro your forces", then it makes less sense to have her actual arms within suit arms at all - she should instead have them inside a control pod where she can simply "macro and micro your forces" to her heart's content without ever having to actually endanger her real arms, and simply let the AI control two weapon arms.

 

The suit arms with her real arms depicted inside are doing nothing in the configuration depicted AND now her real arms are locked away from the systems that would allow her to "macro and micro your forces" more effectively (unless she can somehow pull her arms into the central torso area, in which case once again, why?) and in danger of being lost due to the enemy blowing them off. There are no systems depicted on the suit that would indicate they need to be manipulated by Crisis Suit-style fingers either.

 

Unless the Tau are somehow so technologically inept to believe that they must see artificial fingers pointing and making gestures with their arms to "macro and micro your forces" - which makes even less sense.

 

----------------

 

Trizin, the suit will not be any more threatening by simply having the artificial arms pointed backward, but still bearing all the armament on them. Then you have all the weapons pointed away from the "action" of the model, which still gives no reason for the real arms to even be there.

 

----------------

 

Also, going by the positioning of the arms in the quad configuration, there are going to be positions that the real arms might be in that make it unnecessarily complicated, if not impossible, for the AI to account for working around that could potentially delay use of the weapons in combat - the real arms being encased in armor and forward of the artificial ones will be in the way and doing nothing as currently armed. It's a detriment, not a benefit.

 

You have real unarmed arms making the combat process more complicated, and even a few additional fractions of a second of time for the AI to calculate how to move around them is time wasted and the potential for an enemy to start getting a shot off, and possibly move without being hit in return (especially if the real arms move to protect the body, possibly forcing the AI to once again recalculate movement to keep a shot on target).

 

At the very least, the real arms should mount secondary weapons, or it makes no sense to have them out.

[TheMostGood]

Well to be fair, you wouldn’t be shooting at drones with your anti infantry because the drones wouldn’t be in sight to shoot as it is right now.

 

If you made the drones join the unit it was bought for, then the player could dish out wounds as they see fit. So you could use anti-infantry D1 on say a crisis suit team, but if a D3 wound should pop up, the drone could take it as a mortal wound under the rules as they are now.

[TheMostGood]

 

You may have missed what I said earlier.

Imagine you’re trying to play an RTS while playing paintball at the same time. It would be near impossible.

I’d you had a set of robotic arms shooting for you while you macro and micro your forces, you’ll be able to do more with less distraction.

I didn't miss what you said. You are making an unfounded assumption that you need available fingers to "macro and micro your forces" on a pair of arms sticking out of a suit.

 

You seem to be missing the fact that there is still zero point to having four arms in that scenario, it is in fact a detractor - here's why:

 

If Shadowsun needs her actual arms to "macro and micro your forces", then it makes less sense to have her actual arms within suit arms at all - she should instead have them inside a control pod where she can simply "macro and micro your forces" to her heart's content without ever having to actually endanger her real arms, and simply let the AI control two weapon arms.

 

The suit arms with her real arms depicted inside are doing nothing in the configuration depicted AND now her real arms are locked away from the systems that would allow her to "macro and micro your forces" more effectively (unless she can somehow pull her arms into the central torso area, in which case once again, why?) and in danger of being lost due to the enemy blowing them off. There are no systems depicted on the suit that would indicate they need to be manipulated by Crisis Suit-style fingers either.

 

Unless the Tau are somehow so technologically inept to believe that they must see artificial fingers pointing and making gestures with their arms to "macro and micro your forces" - which makes even less sense.

 

----------------

 

Trizin, the suit will not be any more threatening by simply having the artificial arms pointed backward, but still bearing all the armament on them. Then you have all the weapons pointed away from the "action" of the model, which still gives no reason for the real arms to even be there.

 

----------------

 

Also, going by the positioning of the arms in the quad configuration, there are going to be positions that the real arms might be in that make it unnecessarily complicated, if not impossible, for the AI to account for working around that could potentially delay use of the weapons in combat - the real arms being encased in armor and forward of the artificial ones will be in the way and doing nothing as currently armed. It's a detriment, not a benefit.

 

You have real unarmed arms making the combat process more complicated, and even a few additional fractions of a second of time for the AI to calculate how to move around them is time wasted and the potential for an enemy to start getting a shot off, and possibly move without being hit in return (especially if the real arms move to protect the body, possibly forcing the AI to once again recalculate movement to keep a shot on target).

 

At the very least, the real arms should mount secondary weapons, or it makes no sense to have them out.

Whoa. Yea you totally missed what I said.

 

If you read the books Shadowsun is coordinating and controlling her forces inside her suit (like most commanders). She’s playing an RTS to simplify it for you.

 

She’s also shooting and piloting her suit as well.

 

She can’t do both at the same time, hence the AI second pair of arms.

 

On top of that, with a second pair they could be more free moving and independent of her suits position and current task.

 

Like if let’s say her suit was holding something the second pair of arms could keep shooting, right?

 

Or if she had to pick something up.

 

Does this make sense? This isn’t hard to grasp I don’t think. Unless you don’t have a second pair of arms! :D

Edited January 5, 2020 by TheMostGood

[Bryan Blaire]

Whoa. Yea you totally missed what I said.

If you read the books Shadowsun is coordinating and controlling her forces inside her suit (like most commanders). She’s playing an RTS to simplify it for you.

She’s also shooting and piloting her suit as well.

She can’t do both at the same time, hence the AI second pair of arms.

On top of that, with a second pair they could be more free moving and independent of her suits position and current task.

Does this make sense?

Okay - you still aren't dealing with the fundamental issue: there is no point in having her real arms to actually be out in an armored sleeve in the scenarios you're describing.

 

She'd be more efficient "RTS'ing" her forces with her arms inside the central suit, her arms would be more protected inside the central armor than exposed to being blown off, and they'd actually be doing something.

 

In the current design, her real arms are literally doing nothing that couldn't be done by a set of artificial arms - they aren't armed, she isn't using her real hands, nothing.

 

There is no reason for her real arms to be out, and if there's no reason for them to be out, then there's no reason for that second set of arms to even be there.

[Guest Triszin]

sorry, I did not described it correctly.

 

Bybend the elbow backwards, I meant.

 

Turn the arm upside down and bend the elbow "backwards" so it is now front facing.

 

ala

http://images.fandango.com/MDCsite/images/featured/201307/eot2.jpg

 

shift the fusion blasters to the secondary arms.

 

on the primary arms put the new mini missles/flecette launchers.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Triszin

[Bryan Blaire]

Yes, if the real arms at least had some armament on them, it would make more sense.

 

Even then, why not have at least similar armament on them? I can get maybe the power source can't take it - but seriously, you're bothering to endanger the Supreme Commander's real arms, so she should be at least shooting something substantial, otherwise, just keep her arms inside the central pod.

 

I do think the secondary arms already have the ability to shift in almost 360 degrees, that's not my problem with the artificial arms, but because they are the same size as the primary arms.

[Panzer]

Well to be fair, you wouldn’t be shooting at drones with your anti infantry because the drones wouldn’t be in sight to shoot as it is right now.

 

If you made the drones join the unit it was bought for, then the player could dish out wounds as they see fit. So you could use anti-infantry D1 on say a crisis suit team, but if a D3 wound should pop up, the drone could take it as a mortal wound under the rules as they are now.

If you actually never get LoS to the Drones you are doing something terribly wrong or have a sick amount of LoS blocking terrain on the board that's not representative for most games other people play. The way competetive boards look and how armies move etc. to get to objectives and get LoS etc. there's no way to hide most of your Drones out of LoS for more than maybe one turn if you are lucky.

 

 

 

You may have missed what I said earlier.

Imagine you’re trying to play an RTS while playing paintball at the same time. It would be near impossible.

I’d you had a set of robotic arms shooting for you while you macro and micro your forces, you’ll be able to do more with less distraction.

I didn't miss what you said. You are making an unfounded assumption that you need available fingers to "macro and micro your forces" on a pair of arms sticking out of a suit.

 

You seem to be missing the fact that there is still zero point to having four arms in that scenario, it is in fact a detractor - here's why:

 

If Shadowsun needs her actual arms to "macro and micro your forces", then it makes less sense to have her actual arms within suit arms at all - she should instead have them inside a control pod where she can simply "macro and micro your forces" to her heart's content without ever having to actually endanger her real arms, and simply let the AI control two weapon arms.

 

The suit arms with her real arms depicted inside are doing nothing in the configuration depicted AND now her real arms are locked away from the systems that would allow her to "macro and micro your forces" more effectively (unless she can somehow pull her arms into the central torso area, in which case once again, why?) and in danger of being lost due to the enemy blowing them off. There are no systems depicted on the suit that would indicate they need to be manipulated by Crisis Suit-style fingers either.

 

Unless the Tau are somehow so technologically inept to believe that they must see artificial fingers pointing and making gestures with their arms to "macro and micro your forces" - which makes even less sense.

 

----------------

 

Trizin, the suit will not be any more threatening by simply having the artificial arms pointed backward, but still bearing all the armament on them. Then you have all the weapons pointed away from the "action" of the model, which still gives no reason for the real arms to even be there.

 

----------------

 

Also, going by the positioning of the arms in the quad configuration, there are going to be positions that the real arms might be in that make it unnecessarily complicated, if not impossible, for the AI to account for working around that could potentially delay use of the weapons in combat - the real arms being encased in armor and forward of the artificial ones will be in the way and doing nothing as currently armed. It's a detriment, not a benefit.

 

You have real unarmed arms making the combat process more complicated, and even a few additional fractions of a second of time for the AI to calculate how to move around them is time wasted and the potential for an enemy to start getting a shot off, and possibly move without being hit in return (especially if the real arms move to protect the body, possibly forcing the AI to once again recalculate movement to keep a shot on target).

 

At the very least, the real arms should mount secondary weapons, or it makes no sense to have them out.

Whoa. Yea you totally missed what I said.

 

If you read the books Shadowsun is coordinating and controlling her forces inside her suit (like most commanders). She’s playing an RTS to simplify it for you.

 

She’s also shooting and piloting her suit as well.

 

She can’t do both at the same time, hence the AI second pair of arms.

 

On top of that, with a second pair they could be more free moving and independent of her suits position and current task.

 

Like if let’s say her suit was holding something the second pair of arms could keep shooting, right?

 

Or if she had to pick something up.

 

Does this make sense? This isn’t hard to grasp I don’t think. Unless you don’t have a second pair of arms!

 

 

Literally nothing you said excuses having a pair of arms that do nothing than controlling the other pair like it seems to be the case the way the model is posed. Neither Shadowsun nor any other Commander use their actual arms and hands to coordinate their troops. That all happens via an interface to their brains. T'au Battlesuits are much more of an actual suit of armour than a mech. Hence why the Stormsurge doesn't have the Battlesuit keyword.

 

Also what you say seems to be based mostly on speculation. Nothing indicates the artificial pair of arms can shoot on their own. The only thing we can see is the pilot controlling the artificial pair of arms with their actual pair of arms.

[Spinsanity]

Admittedly, I’ve never paid much attention to the T’au, so might be way off, but I was under the impression that Crisis suits weren’t designed like upscaled armour but rather like a piloted suit; kind of like an enclosed Invictor warsuit. The pilot doesn’t need an extra set of hands on the actual crisis suit because he can still use his/her own hands inside. During a protracted operation, they can actually eat their lunch without having to remove the weapons from the suit’s arms, something Shadowsun wouldn’t be able to do since her suit is alot more like an actual armour in design, which is a design choice only the XV25s (and older what, 22s?) shared.

[Panzer]

Admittedly, I’ve never paid much attention to the T’au, so might be way off, but I was under the impression that Crisis suits weren’t designed like upscaled armour but rather like a piloted suit; kind of like an enclosed Invictor warsuit. The pilot doesn’t need an extra set of hands on the actual crisis suit because he can still use his/her own hands inside. During a protracted operation, they can actually eat their lunch without having to remove the weapons from the suit’s arms, something Shadowsun wouldn’t be able to do since her suit is alot more like an actual armour in design, which is a design choice only the XV25s (and older what, 22s?) shared.

 

Yes and no. The pilot is in a chamber in the center of the suit, however it's not like there are buttons and joysticks and whatever. The pilot basically becomes the suit. However the difference in the way Crisis Suits and Stealth Suits are piloted still doesn't excuse having a pair of arms for nothing else than controlling another pair of arms.

 

Now if the artificial pair were much bigger or something then sure why not, but the way it is they'd really need something else to do to make sense. Eating lunch definitely doesn't count as there's nothing like rations on her armour and she wouldn't be able to put her hands to her mouth anyway. The chest and the wrists are way too chunky for that. Ironically having a second much smaller and spindly pair of arms would work for that lol

[Bryan Blaire]

Panzer hit on what I was going to say - any use of the primary real arms would actually make more sense for them being the size of her original suit, not the upgraded, enlarged arms. The increased size and mount position of the primary arms that her real arms go in, without any armament, are actually a detriment as currently set on the model. Either the artificial weapon arms need to be larger, more jointed, or mounted in a different location (for instance, you could actually mount the artificial ones on the exterior of the "real arm" shoulder mounts and it would work) OR the "primary" real arms need to be smaller and potentially mounted in a different location.

 

The physics of "two solid objects can't occupy the same space without altering physical laws" can't be denied here. The secondary weapon arms range of motion for some critical positions (like directly in front of the suit) would be inhibited by the current primary arm configuration.

 

Just saying "AI" isn't going to solve that physics issue.

 

Which makes it a bad (dumb, IMO) design.

 

These aren't like the secondary weapon mounts in Edge of Tomorrow, or the ESWAT mecha, etc., because all of those deal with the physical infringing of the primary arms in other ways - Edge of Tomorrow has the primary, real arms have weapons on them, and the secondary mounts actually come up and over and don't try to slave around the primary arms; the ESWAT arms are massive out of scale and protrude from different places in the mecha.

 

Personally, I'm likely to resolve the issues with the model by simply replacing the primary "real" arms with the actual arms off Shadowsun's current model or off a Stealth Suit, or by adding an additional armored joint into the secondary weapon arms (I believe I have the shoulder parts to some Crisis and XV-88 suits, think those might make some good "first joints" for the conversion).

[chapter master 454]

A reminder that for Tau XV+number is imperial designations (they call them Riptides, Stormsurges, Riptides and so on. At least that is what i gathered) and the numbers do actually mean something relatively. The system is broken down into Weight Class + identifier. This means an XV8 suit is much heavier than other suits (and implies a range of suit weight classes below this though GW like many a manga artist seems to of forgot this!). XV2 class suits are actually closer to bodysuits really than traditional battlesuits which are rightly piloted, not "worn". These are the suits worn by Stealth teams and while they do have minor strength benefits that allow them to use heavier weapons, note than a normal stealth suit is normally only seen with 1 fusion blaster or 1 burst cannon (likely limited by energy reserves/ammo capacity and recoil management).

Shadowsun had an XV22 suit which by all accounts was still experimental and was basically could be akin to stealth suits like a broadside is to a crisis. Up armoured and more advanced systems, the limiting factor of roll out is likely resources to create such a suit (which those resources could be poured into the more valuable Riptide and Stormsurge suits to aid war efforts).

 

The new version (XV24/25, whatever number it was) designates another evolution of the design. Wishing to upgun the frame in relation to the targets she is tackling regularly, the old suit was likely able to cut mustard vs. Imperial Guard and lighter elements of enemy forces but now having to deal with elites like Adeptus Astartes whose number is more than fusion blasters can handle and can still overpower her in the old XV22, this is kind of a big deal due to how she likes to fight (and is famous for having done so against the marines who practised it as their M.O.).

Having reached the limits of what wearable servos can give her, they have adapted likely a skeleton frame of a crisis suits upper servos to not only give her greater strength but also carry heavier gear (note how she added more guns to the guns). A lot of this seems targeted towards countering heavy infantry, from the new option for dispersed fusion blasters (turning them into melta shotguns!) and added use of light anti-armour weapons to aid in that endeavour.

 

Overall, the new suit looks like it could be considered the XV22 with a crisis suit servo framework strapped to the back.

 

To also add: it is why crisis suit and broadsides don't need extra arms for hauling their gear. The joints for the shoulders and elbows are literally all servos and mechanical parts, no need to account for a frail arm getting snapped in half by the recoil of extended burst cannon firing or the monstrous kick of a heavy rail rifle.

 

Edit: Ninja'ed...but still...I think I did good...I did a good?

Edited January 5, 2020 by chapter master 454

[Claws and Effect]

A couple theories on the 4 arms thing:

 

1) The arms being synched and moving at the same time makes using her weapons more intuitive than if she simply had a set of robotic arms and her real arms were fully contained within the suit. And if the weapons arms are slaved to her actual arm motion it makes glitches in the AI less of a problem.

 

2) Having 2 separate sets of arms lets her continue firing via AI while she is doing something else with her hands.

 

Keep in mind that Shadowsun doesn't shy away from melee combat as much as most Tau, in fact she actually gets a bit of a rush out if it (she actually fought Kor'Sarro Khan with a blade in one of the Damocles short stories, and he noticed a bloodlust in her that other Tau lack). The second set of arms means she can engage in melee without her rate of fire dropping off. And even if she's not in melee combat she could theoretically use another handheld gun while her fusion blasters are blazing away. She's not modelled doing so, but you can look at the model and easily envision her doing such a thing.

 

I'm not just looking at the actual pose of the model. I'm looking at the design of the suit and considering things she can do with it that a 2 armed design would make problematic. The pose the model is in makes it clear that the secondary arms are synched with her real arms, but the design of the suit makes it equally clear that they don't have to be all the time. Especially when you consider how advanced Tau AI is.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Claws and Effect

[Guest Triszin]

I would say, im getting more a XV22 "Hazard" vibe from her armor

 

I looked at the model, the only thing I find odd at the moment, I would have assumed the second set of arms would be set, wider out, but from what I can tell so far, they appear to be set the same width from the center as her primary arms. its a simple fix, if it needs to be fixed.

[Panzer]

A reminder that for Tau XV+number is imperial designations (they call them Riptides, Stormsurges, Riptides and so on. At least that is what i gathered) and the numbers do actually mean something relatively. The system is broken down into Weight Class + identifier. This means an XV8 suit is much heavier than other suits (and implies a range of suit weight classes below this though GW like many a manga artist seems to of forgot this!). XV2 class suits are actually closer to bodysuits really than traditional battlesuits which are rightly piloted, not "worn". These are the suits worn by Stealth teams and while they do have minor strength benefits that allow them to use heavier weapons, note than a normal stealth suit is normally only seen with 1 fusion blaster or 1 burst cannon (likely limited by energy reserves/ammo capacity and recoil management).

Shadowsun had an XV22 suit which by all accounts was still experimental and was basically could be akin to stealth suits like a broadside is to a crisis. Up armoured and more advanced systems, the limiting factor of roll out is likely resources to create such a suit (which those resources could be poured into the more valuable Riptide and Stormsurge suits to aid war efforts).

 

The new version (XV24/25, whatever number it was) designates another evolution of the design. Wishing to upgun the frame in relation to the targets she is tackling regularly, the old suit was likely able to cut mustard vs. Imperial Guard and lighter elements of enemy forces but now having to deal with elites like Adeptus Astartes whose number is more than fusion blasters can handle and can still overpower her in the old XV22, this is kind of a big deal due to how she likes to fight (and is famous for having done so against the marines who practised it as their M.O.).

Having reached the limits of what wearable servos can give her, they have adapted likely a skeleton frame of a crisis suits upper servos to not only give her greater strength but also carry heavier gear (note how she added more guns to the guns). A lot of this seems targeted towards countering heavy infantry, from the new option for dispersed fusion blasters (turning them into melta shotguns!) and added use of light anti-armour weapons to aid in that endeavour.

 

Overall, the new suit looks like it could be considered the XV22 with a crisis suit servo framework strapped to the back.

 

To also add: it is why crisis suit and broadsides don't need extra arms for hauling their gear. The joints for the shoulders and elbows are literally all servos and mechanical parts, no need to account for a frail arm getting snapped in half by the recoil of extended burst cannon firing or the monstrous kick of a heavy rail rifle.

 

Edit: Ninja'ed...but still...I think I did good...I did a good?

 

Just a mind refresher:

Yes the XV designations are imperial. The actual name T'au give their suits is "Her'ex'vre" which means "Mantel of the hero" and which got phonetically translated into "XV".

The first number indicates the weight class, the second number indicates a special function of that type of suit. Rarely a third number is added if the suit has another special function as well. Riptides are special and the first number is actually a 10 instead of a 1 followed by two more numbers.

 

As for the special function it goes as follows:

1. Prototype or developmental model
2. Prototype in field testing
3. Assigned permanently to a pilot but not being massproduced yet
4. Command and Control role or final stages of field testing (presumably because high ranking T'au get to test new suits first)
5. Stealth
6. Air-space Battlesuit
7. Facilitate infiltration
8. Fire support
9. Frontline Assault

It's not perfect but that's what we got from official sources and GW can always use the excuse of it being an in-universe thing from the imperial side so it doesn't have to be perfect. ^^

 

 

Her old suit was a XV22 since it was the same weight class as a regular Stealth Suit but an advanced prototype variant. This one is bigger and upgunned. Crisis Suits are XV8. Since we don't have anything officially between 2 and 8 except for the XV46 which never got a model or rules it could be anything from a XV32 to a XV72.

Now it would be fun if GW would actually logically progress things and retire the old XV25 and replace them with what Shadowsun used to use (aka new Stealth Suit models with rules for two weapons each) but that probably will never happen. :D 

[Panzer]

2) Having 2 separate sets of arms lets her continue firing via AI while she is doing something else with her hands.

 

Keep in mind that Shadowsun doesn't shy away from melee combat as much as most Tau, in fact she actually gets a bit of a rush out if it (she actually fought Kor'Sarro Khan with a blade in one of the Damocles short stories, and he noticed a bloodlust in her that other Tau lack). The second set of arms means she can engage in melee without her rate of fire dropping off. And even if she's not in melee combat she could theoretically use another handheld gun while her fusion blasters are blazing away. She's not modelled doing so, but you can look at the model and easily envision her doing such a thing.

 

I'm not just looking at the actual pose of the model. I'm looking at the design of the suit and considering things she can do with it that a 2 armed design would make problematic. The pose the model is in makes it clear that the secondary arms are synched with her real arms, but the design of the suit makes it equally clear that they don't have to be all the time. Especially when you consider how advanced Tau AI is.

 

I agree that she theoretically could do all those things, but that's not what the model conveys. What the model shows is a redundant pair of arms doing nothing important. That's the whole problem I have with it. If I could I'd put the Pulse pistol that comes on the sprue into the hand of one of the regular pair of arms and change the pose so it's not doing the exact same thing as the artificial pair of arms.

Logically however it would make more sense if she'd simply carry two more fusion blasters or whatever for her free pair of arms. If she really needs to use them for something else she could still just drop them, keep shooting with the artificial pair and eventually pick them up again.

 

I'm NOT against the 4 arms. I'm against the way the model is posed which makes the second pair look like a useless and redundant addition.

[Bryan Blaire]

There's nothing about the design of the arms that makes it "obvious" that they don't have to be slaved to the primary arms, that's pure head-fiction at this point. From the design of the four arms and the pose of the model, all we can accurately say is that GW shows them all doing the same movement - which is fine to the sides, but becomes physically restricted/impossible if you want them to point forward (especially directly in front of the body) or directly backward - because Tau arms don't appear to be jointed that way, so it would break Shadowsun's real arms to do it. The same movement doesn't even necessarily mean they are slaved together. The model doesn't say that.

 

Also it's a bit of cognitive dissonance to say that the glitches of the AI would be a hinderance, so the slaved arms are better, and then to turn around and try and use the AI as a benefit in the very next point.

 

If it's a potential hinderance, then it is not a 100% benefit - can't have it both ways. If she's relying on the AI, then there's a chance any firing will be ineffective due to glitches.

 

Again, the design can be solved, and function how everyone seems to want it to, it just can't be done the way that GW has physically designed it.

[TheMostGood]

 

Well to be fair, you wouldn’t be shooting at drones with your anti infantry because the drones wouldn’t be in sight to shoot as it is right now.

 

If you made the drones join the unit it was bought for, then the player could dish out wounds as they see fit. So you could use anti-infantry D1 on say a crisis suit team, but if a D3 wound should pop up, the drone could take it as a mortal wound under the rules as they are now.

If you actually never get LoS to the Drones you are doing something terribly wrong or have a sick amount of LoS blocking terrain on the board that's not representative for most games other people play. The way competetive boards look and how armies move etc. to get to objectives and get LoS etc. there's no way to hide most of your Drones out of LoS for more than maybe one turn if you are lucky.

 

 

You can play how you'd like, and that certainly might be your experience. 

 

But most ITC events (competitive play) offer plenty of LoS blocking terrain for two reasons. They actually fill the board out with enough terrain (which makes it so that armies don't get alpha striked as hard) and with the way they rule units inside buildings as "untargetable". 

 

So you can pretty comfortably hide most of your drones out of LoS for most of the game. Most of the casualties for drones in these events comes from Savior Protocols. Opponents have to "chew" through the Savior Protocols of drones to get to the juicy insides of the Battlesuit line which has become unfun and uninspiring for everyone involved. That's actually one of the main complaints with T'au on both sides of the field. 

 

Here's a video of a top T'au player who has won a couple of tournaments to explain the idea (forgot where it's at exactly). Basically, you find a piece of LoS terrain and drop your shield drones behind that. First squad is bunched. Second squad wraps around the first to form a circle etc. Then you put your riptides in sort of a triangle formation around that. 

 

The drones are unlikely to ever be shot at unless your opponent has LoS negating weapons or can some how come up close enough in a turn or two to be able to shoot at the drones.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbDFJ4bXhX4

 

 

Also I misread your post. I thought you were suggesting that it was dumb to have a second pair of arms period not that you didn't like the idea that she had to stick her arms through real robot arms. 

 

Which I don't understand the issue? The stealth suits for the stealth suit elite and shadowsun are barebones suits that are more exosuits rather than battlesuits proper. One could argue that the design and function of the suit requires it to be worn that way or else it couldn't be powered and would be too bulky (like the Ghostkeel). 

Edited January 5, 2020 by TheMostGood

[Panzer]

 

 

Well to be fair, you wouldn’t be shooting at drones with your anti infantry because the drones wouldn’t be in sight to shoot as it is right now.

 

If you made the drones join the unit it was bought for, then the player could dish out wounds as they see fit. So you could use anti-infantry D1 on say a crisis suit team, but if a D3 wound should pop up, the drone could take it as a mortal wound under the rules as they are now.

If you actually never get LoS to the Drones you are doing something terribly wrong or have a sick amount of LoS blocking terrain on the board that's not representative for most games other people play. The way competetive boards look and how armies move etc. to get to objectives and get LoS etc. there's no way to hide most of your Drones out of LoS for more than maybe one turn if you are lucky.

 

 

You can play how you'd like, and that certainly might be your experience. 

 

But most ITC events (competitive play) offer plenty of LoS blocking terrain for two reasons. They actually fill the board out with enough terrain (which makes it so that armies don't get alpha striked as hard) and with the way they rule units inside buildings as "untargetable". 

 

So you can pretty comfortably hide most of your drones out of LoS for most of the game. Most of the casualties for drones in these events comes from Savior Protocols. Opponents have to "chew" through the Savior Protocols of drones to get to the juicy insides of the Battlesuit line which has become unfun and uninspiring for everyone involved. That's actually one of the main complaints with T'au on both sides of the field. 

 

Here's a video of a top T'au player who has won a couple of tournaments to explain the idea (forgot where it's at exactly). Basically, you find a piece of LoS terrain and drop your shield drones behind that. First squad is bunched. Second squad wraps around the first to form a circle etc. Then you put your riptides in sort of a triangle formation around that. 

 

The drones are unlikely to ever be shot at unless your opponent has LoS negating weapons or can some how come up close enough in a turn or two to be able to shoot at the drones.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbDFJ4bXhX4

 

 

Also I misread your post. I thought you were suggesting that it was dumb to have a second pair of arms period not that you didn't like the idea that she had to stick her arms through real robot arms. 

 

Which I don't understand the issue? The stealth suits for the stealth suit elite and shadowsun are barebones suits that are more exosuits rather than battlesuits proper. One could argue that the design and function of the suit requires it to be worn that way or else it couldn't be powered and would be too bulky (like the Ghostkeel). 

 

 

I know the ITC tables and how such T'au lists get played. Of course you try to have them out of LoS. However that's definitely not possible for all of your Drones all the time against good opponents. Against opponents that know what to do having mixed units where the Drones would benefit from the Battlesuits toughness and would actually also be able to benefit from their 4++ as well it would be a huge buff and even more annoying to deal with than the way it currently works.

 

In a mixed unit instead of having a 2+ to roll to put a Lascannon wound on a Shield Drone which then has to roll a 5+++ to survive I could put the Lascannon wound on the Shield Drone without having to roll anything at all and then have to roll a 4++ followed by X(usually about 3.5 for a Lascannon) 5+++ to survive.

The usual answer to that is "shoot the Drones first", but oh wait you can't anymore because they are part of the Riptide unit now. So if you actually want to "shoot the Drones first" you'd have to aim with your anti-infantry shots at the Riptide which would simply laugh about it and shrug it off with his T7 Sv2+.

So at the end of the day the unit would become a LOT more durable than it is today.

A mixed unit is definitely not the way to go if you're seeking a nerf to the Drone issue (if it even is an issue since T'au still don't win on tournaments all the time even with their best list anyway).

 

 

It seems you are still misunderstanding the issue with Shadowsun and I don't know how to make it more clear than I already did in the above posts, so I'm just asking you to read those again.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Panzer