Unified feedback for the new FAQ

[Dark_Master]

Deathwing Assault has another nail in its coffin

[cubertious]

Deathwing Assault has another nail in its coffin

I wish they would have included Deathwing in the list of exemptions to the new deepstriking rule either in general, if you have Belial, or through some sort of synergy with Ravenwing *coughs* teleport homers *coughs*.

[themortalgod]

 

Deathwing Assault has another nail in its coffin

I wish they would have included Deathwing in the list of exemptions to the new deepstriking rule either in general, if you have Belial, or through some sort of synergy with Ravenwing *coughs* teleport homers *coughs*.

 

 

Not to mention the whole: "can't have more than 3 of a single data slate rule". Basically makes pure DW toast until further notice unless we want to run like 3 units of 10 and only have 4 CP vs armies that have 15-20CP. 

[Endgame]

 

 

 

 

Deathwing Assault has another nail in its coffin

I wish they would have included Deathwing in the list of exemptions to the new deepstriking rule either in general, if you have Belial, or through some sort of synergy with Ravenwing *coughs* teleport homers *coughs*.

Not to mention the whole: "can't have more than 3 of a single data slate rule". Basically makes pure DW toast until further notice unless we want to run like 3 units of 10 and only have 4 CP vs armies that have 15-20CP.

You can run 12 units of 5 terminators with this rule in place, so I'm pretty sure it's not restricting an all foot Deathwing army too much.

[Project XXVIII]

 

 

Dark Talon 40p increase!! That guy with the 8Dark Talons in LVO did that . Jokes aside it still gonna work just fine with its new cost.

Well, it kills a lot of my <1500pts lists

i expected something like a 20-25 point increase, not a 25% increase in cost.

To be fair, they're just really good. They have both horde control, anti tank and mortal wound potential. And yeah, people spamming units ruins it for all of us. Still, it was undercosted.

 

I'd  have to concur that it WAS underpointed,.. but a 40 point increase does seem a bit steep.  20 Points,.. sure,.. 30,.. hmmmm,.. ok,.. but 40 smacks to me of GW just throwing darts as to the points cost of some of these units.  Tweaks work,.. huge fluctuations though,..

 

 

 

Deathwing Assault has another nail in its coffin

I hear you, and while I understand to a certain degree GW trying to curb the "Alpha Strike" with the turn 1 limitations,.. I still don't understand the last sentence involved with Reserves.  Why do these units burn after 3 turns?  If I want to gamble by not commiting them to the fight, shouldn't my gamemanship and tactical acumen be a better factor in determining if these units go to waste?  3 turns of keeping reserves in 8th is practically paramount to flirting with getting tabled, because getting tabled normally is easy enough.  Let ME decide if those units burn,.. perhaps this is for tournament play to keep games from dragging on,.. and I can see that,.. but toss these rules in to tourney games.  I can see gaming groups adopting a policy of dipping into matched play rules they want to use, and applying them to a more liberal narrative mission outline.

 

Auto Burn after 3 turns,.. *shakes head*

 

 

Now having said that,.. consider this,.. by applying both the previous topics,.. you can use one to help pull off the other.  Keep in mind that the Dark Talon's "Stasis Bomb" ability goes off in the movement phase,.. so by perhaps keenly applying a Bomb (or two), one could free up enough space to DStrike in some Deathwing for example,.. and now that you get more CP,.. that Deathwing Assault doesn't look AS bad,.. (But still not amazing)

[Solrac]

Dark Talon spam was going to be nerfed with the rule of 3 anyway. Not sure why they felt they needed a 40 point increase. Eldar Flyers are sub 180, harder to kill because they are all Alaitoc and not having Hover doesn't matter because they have Vector Dancer. Whilst this GW is better than GW of old, I feel they are still missing the boat on a lot of issues when they are trying to "balance" the game.

 

The no deepstrike first turn is great because you have a whole turn of manoeuvring  your army and it's battle wrap knowing the enemy can't deepstrike behind you.

 

In terms of Deathwing Assault I think that strategy worked better from Turn 2/3 onwards anyway. You can mitigate a lot of income long range fire by good use of LOS blocking. Bringing your Termies in later in the game means they could survive a little longer or start distracting the enemy whilst you start scoring more points and venturing forth.

[Hantheman]

God knows what terminators ever did to GW. Poor guys can’t catch a break.

 

But at least Imperial Guard get a massive buff. They are so fun to play against and are now even stronger.

[SnakeChisler]

Terminators are overcosted and too slow, we've at least got some strategems to buff them a bit, the T1 block to DS doesn't affect us in the slightest.

 

50% of the time your going 2nd anyways so your opponent had a turn of manouvering and there supposed to be a support unit to a larger force.

 

Terminator only has been dead since the switch out of 6th how long can you guys chew the cud over the good old bad old days????

[ERJAK]

Dark Talon spam was going to be nerfed with the rule of 3 anyway. Not sure why they felt they needed a 40 point increase. Eldar Flyers are sub 180, harder to kill because they are all Alaitoc and not having Hover doesn't matter because they have Vector Dancer. Whilst this GW is better than GW of old, I feel they are still missing the boat on a lot of issues when they are trying to "balance" the game.

 

The no deepstrike first turn is great because you have a whole turn of manoeuvring  your army and it's battle wrap knowing the enemy can't deepstrike behind you.

 

In terms of Deathwing Assault I think that strategy worked better from Turn 2/3 onwards anyway. You can mitigate a lot of income long range fire by good use of LOS blocking. Bringing your Termies in later in the game means they could survive a little longer or start distracting the enemy whilst you start scoring more points and venturing forth.

In practice all it really means is that your opponent gets to decide where you deepstrike, complete board control, and kill most of what you didn't reserve before your army can react. Under this rule if you do heavy deepstrike and don't go first your opponent get 2 full turns before you even get to play.

[G8Keeper]

@ ERJAK

 

I think that's overly simplistic.  You get to create holes to deepstrike into during your first turn, or two if you choose with at the minimum half of your army  Yes, you don't get to play with your deepstrikers but, as mentioned by Solrac, DWA works well in later turns too.

[PhilB]

Does anyone else fee like the buff to command points for brigades and battalions hurts elite armies more than help them?

When I think of an elite army, from my perspective of Dark Angels, I think of my old DW & RW list from 7th that I've reworked for 8th ED costings. The army uses the Outrider & Vanguard detachments. So in this regard, these changes don't address the issue.

 

I understand GW's point whereby if I took a few troops and shoehorned the army into a battalion then I'd now get more command points, but isn't everyone else getting that benefit too? So it's not really helping the elite army perspective while simultaneously helping the horde style armies with even more CP generation, I feel.

[Hantheman]

Does anyone else fee like the buff to command points for brigades and battalions hurts elite armies more than help them?

When I think of an elite army, from my perspective of Dark Angels, I think of my old DW & RW list from 7th that I've reworked for 8th ED costings. The army uses the Outrider & Vanguard detachments. So in this regard, these changes don't address the issue.

 

I understand GW's point whereby if I took a few troops and shoehorned the army into a battalion then I'd now get more command points, but isn't everyone else getting that benefit too? So it's not really helping the elite army perspective while simultaneously helping the horde style armies with even more CP generation, I feel.

Yeah totally. I do not understand why they buffed Brigade points either

[JJD]

 

 

 

 

 

Deathwing Assault has another nail in its coffin

I wish they would have included Deathwing in the list of exemptions to the new deepstriking rule either in general, if you have Belial, or through some sort of synergy with Ravenwing *coughs* teleport homers *coughs*.

Not to mention the whole: "can't have more than 3 of a single data slate rule". Basically makes pure DW toast until further notice unless we want to run like 3 units of 10 and only have 4 CP vs armies that have 15-20CP.

You can run 12 units of 5 terminators with this rule in place, so I'm pretty sure it's not restricting an all foot Deathwing army too much.

Sorry I must be missing something. How can you have 12 units of terminators when the new limit is 3 of the same data slate per army at 2000 points.

[Isual]

 

 

You can run 12 units of 5 terminators with this rule in place, so I'm pretty sure it's not restricting an all foot Deathwing army too much.

Sorry I must be missing something. How can you have 12 units of terminators when the new limit is 3 of the same data slate per army at 2000 points.

 

I think he ment taking 3 units Terminators and 3 units DWK of 10 eatch and combatsquating them to 12 units of 5. But could be wrong too.

[Berzul]

Points-wise that looks expensive...

[march10k]

 

 

 

You can run 12 units of 5 terminators with this rule in place, so I'm pretty sure it's not restricting an all foot Deathwing army too much.

Sorry I must be missing something. How can you have 12 units of terminators when the new limit is 3 of the same data slate per army at 2000 points.

 

I think he ment taking 3 units Terminators and 3 units DWK of 10 eatch and combatsquating them to 12 units of 5. But could be wrong too.

 

30 DWT

30 DWK

30 DWT in tartaros

30 TWT in cataphracti.

 

120 terminators before you start adding characters.

 

 

I would agree with you on DW/RW synergy -- there is none. We don't even have teleport homers on bikes and speeders. That's something FAQ won't fix.

 

 

I think that's a bit of a limited view.  Certainly, there are no synergies in the rules any more.  But in terms of playstyle, strengths, and tactics?  That's still there.  I was playing black/white lists before we had that golden age of synergistic special rules.  I remember one list I ran with nothing but bikes, termies, and dreads.  It had a steep learning curve, but it was incredibly powerful once I figured it out.  The bikes brought mobility, bolter spam, and T5.  The thundernators brought melee and 2+/3++.  The venerable dreads brought long ranged antitank shooting and "augmented" AV12.  In game after game, because the three legs of my stool were so different, one of them was obliterated early and easily, one did allright, and the third crushed the enemy.  I rarely took less than 70% casualties, but I gave as good as I got, and I won.  That list went something like 17-1-2 before I retired it.  It was all-comers in that it had all of the tools and in that it was difficult for any opponent to have hard counters to all three without list-tailoring against it (and there was strong social pressure NOT to design separate lists specifically for each mate's known army list).

 

Some of that is still true today.  Bikes bring speed, knights (didn't exist then) bring melee and 2+/3++.  Today, I would substitute devastators for the dreadnoughts, wounds-based vehicles really hurt our ability to present the enemy with more variety of types of damage resistance than they can efficiently deal with.

[Berzul]

Yeah, but since the goal of GW is to "make" us play the codex a synergized whole instead of wing-to-wing, makes less sense that they would not give us the incentives for said synergy through rules and stratagems. Specially after 7th had rules for this specifically.

 

You CAN just "form your own" synergy out of fluff or style of play. But you have no edge to do so. And when mixing wings is the goal of the design team, you should be rewarded for doing so, over choosing to go a different way with your army.

 

Otherwise, it feels like you are just taxed with having to bring things that you don't want and do not synergize in a way that is "better" than the pure list you want.

 

Stick over carrot, in a way.

[JJD]

 

 

 

 

You can run 12 units of 5 terminators with this rule in place, so I'm pretty sure it's not restricting an all foot Deathwing army too much.

Sorry I must be missing something. How can you have 12 units of terminators when the new limit is 3 of the same data slate per army at 2000 points.

 

I think he ment taking 3 units Terminators and 3 units DWK of 10 eatch and combatsquating them to 12 units of 5. But could be wrong too.

30 DWT

30 DWK

30 DWT in tartaros

30 TWT in cataphracti.

 

120 terminators before you start adding characters.

Thanks sometimes you can’t see the wood for the trees.

[Berzul]

That would be... what? 5000 points?

[robofish7591]

I'm not going to lie... I kind of want to do that...

[Berzul]

Ok so, lets get this back on track.

 

Should we raise a list of suggestions as a community then? How should we proceed about it? A lot has been suggested so far, both here and on the DW are dead thread.

 

Should we list them? Maybe vote on the best ideas? Form a list of the suggestions that get picked as the best? THen send it?

 

 

I'll start by putting my suggestions here:


1) Dark Talon down from 200 to 180. That should be expensive enough.

2) 3 point per model cost reduction on terminators. They are seriously too expensive to use.

3) DW special rule that give them one singular save reroll (armor or invul) per shooting and combat phase. Doesn't mean they won't die by wound saturation, but saves them from inglorious lucky single shots, and aids them in surviving at least ONE good killing blow, making them more survivable without it being overpowered

4) New "Summon the Deathwing" stratagem at 2 CP that allows a unit of DW to drop up to more than 6" from the enemy, as long as they land entirely within 6" of a RW bike, attack bike, or black knight. Gets us back to synergizing with the RW, which is what GW wants!
5) New "Relentless" stratagem at 1 CP at 1-5 models or 2 CP at 6-10 models, that allows DW to advance treating their Rapid Fire weapons as Assault for the turn (and that is usable after deepstrike). Solves a bit of our maneuverability problem, really.

6) Make Fortress of Shields usable against shooting as well as melee. I mean, why not? Makes perfect sense for them to lock shield against shooting attacks! And makes them more survivable without being overpowered

7) Make Inner Circle grant rerolls of 1 in combat against Chaos Space Marines, and rerolls of failed attacks against Fallen (seriously, who even uses fallen?! Inner circle is almost entirely useless, really)

 

That is my take, at least.

 

[Bryan Blaire]

I wouldn’t propose anything that GW didn’t ask for proposals on in response to the FAQ, personally - seems like a set up to be disappointed, and it’s somewhat guaranteed you won’t see them in print as suggested, if you even see something similar. There are legalities surrounding something being unsolicited and then used.

[Berzul]

I was under the impression that GW had a sort of "open door" policy regarding community feedback.

 

Not that they would even consider anything you say, but you can still send it.

 

We loose nothing by giving the constructive feedback

[Bryan Blaire]

I just wouldn’t offer it in the feedback for the FAQ. It wasn’t included, so it wasn’t what they were asking for - Beta Rules feedback.

 

I would put the suggestions as something different so that it doesn’t get binned with the “Not what we wanted” stuff. I wouldn’t be so specific with the suggestions either, and I would include some battle report type information: “I played against a X points army of ______, and when I engaged a squad of X with a squad of Ravenwing and tried to bring some Deathwing down to support them, I ended up losing the Deathwing in close combat. If there was some kind of synergistic strategem that gave an edge to using these two closely linked type of units together, it would provide some flavor and allow a way for my Deathwing Terminators to survive combat against lowly X.”

 

That way you let them know what you want, provide them some actual info about a game you played, and an option you think would be good to see.

[Berzul]

Yeah, fair enough.

 

We should still probably make some form of suggestion, right? Both for the FAQ now, as well as general stuff