Melta Fist or Thunder Hammer?

[Duke Danse Macabre]

So once again I have been pouring over the models and the few other choices open to our terminators and I keep coming back to the question, combat or shooting?

3 assault cannons or hammer and shield?

The plus side is we don't have to choose bring able to take melta and a power fi st as a single option making a very big threat, especially when they also come with shields in units of 5 per more but is the flat 3 damage of the hammer worth trading for a d3 damage and a melta gun?

Or is it too expensive in your eyes?

 

Personally I can't decide, so i would like to know what does everyone else think on this?

[Panzer]

I'm no DW player but so far in my experience whenever I had the choice between D3 and D1d3 the D3 was always worth it while the D1d3 always eventually failed me with a 1 damage roll and rarely got a 3 damage roll when it's needed.

[Vel'Cona]

[Inquisitor Red]

I can't say I've ever played with the melta pfist but I have a lot of experience using T-Hammer Storm Shield Termies.

 

-First off they're one of my favorite units in the game to play but lets be real they're really expensive. I run them in a x5 man squad all kitted out with hammer and shield.

 

-Tactically: I deep strike them and lay them into any big heavy unit I don't like. They're especially great for deep striking at any back field long shooters (Lemon Russ, Dune Crawler, Hammerhead, etc). I've also ran them in a Landraider/Corvus and that isn't terrible either just pricey pt wise.

 

-Downside #1: The -1 to hit on the t-hammers is really rough, so deep striking a Captain with em to get some sort of re-rolls helps some. Really really sucks we can't take a Chaplin on a jump pack (for now) or else I'd recommend that for the deep strike route. If your running em in a transport bring the cheap old chaplain and your good. 

 

-Downside #2: Don't miss your charge! Nothing sucks more than bringing these guys down and you whiff on your charge roll. To prevent this I usually bring a Libby with them and Veil of time the unit. This allows you to re-roll charges, as well as strike first in CC even in your opponents turn. 

 

-Overall: While you probably won't see them in any lists winning GTs they're hands down one of my favorite units to play. Even in 8th 2+/3++ is still good and makes them tough to bring down. They can easily go toe to toe with any  big nasty your opponent brings (Imperial Knights, Riptides, Dreads, Carnifax, etc). Anyways thats my two cents, lets hope our dex makes them even better. 

[Mobius0288]

It terms of damage, I'm with you on the thunder hammer... But whenever someone brings up termies, I feel like I can always get my kill teams to do them cheaper. And if I bring melee to the front lines, I'm not really sure I want to deep strike them because there's a decent chance I will lose unit strength or be taken completely off the board before a successful charge. I definitely prefer to offload from a transport if at all possible.

 

So from the get-go, straight assault terminators at full strength are devastating. I can cripple some super heavies if I'm not out run... but only if they don't avoid me. My transports are limited to corvus blackstar, landraider or I can deep strike. Or, I can try to emulate that capability in a kill team. Why? Because I can get back the ability to take other transport, it will cost less and I can augment other unit types. Whether it's an advantage to you is totally personal preference.

 

The following examples assume full strength units and the Angelic Beacon as a "transport" option.

 

Assault termies (TH/SS) - 265 pts

- 11 TH attacks x 3 dmg

- Grenades

- 2+/3++ saves all day

- Transports: Blackstar, Landraider, deep strike

 

Kill Team (4 Vets, 1 Sgt, 1 Blackshield; 5 boltguns w/ SIA, 3 TH, 2 SS, 1 HTH) - 202 pts

- 8 TH attacks x 3 dmg

- 2 HTH attacks x D6 dmg

-- 4 close combat attacks x 1 dmg

-- 5-10 SIA bolter shots

-- Able to add Termie for +2 armor saves (+46 pts for fist/storm bolter)

- Transports: Blackstar, Landraider, Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod

 

The pros of the kill team outweight the termies for me in the case... I have the ability shoot and smash things, at least to the point I can, worst case, cripple a vehicle's shooting.

 

The shooting version is a little different and I'd say this becomes a little more personal preference then a points efficiency thing. I'm going pure shooting and pts efficiency on this next example.

 

Termies (5 storm bolters, 3 powerfist w/ melta, 2 power mauls) - 265 pts

- 10-20 bolter shots

- 3 melta shots (at the same time, no -1 to hit for firing both)

- 7 power fist attacks x d3 dmg

- 4 power maul attacks

- 2+ armor saves all day

- Transport: Blackstar, Landraider and Deep strike (more viable because charge isn't mandatory)

 

Kill Team (4 Vets, 1 Sgt, 1 Termie, 1 Vanguard; 3 combi-melta, 2 bolters, 1 storm bolter, 1 bolt pistol, 2 storm shields, 3 chainswords) - 225 pts

- 5-10 SIA bolter shots

- 3 melta shots (-1 to hit if firing both)

- 1 bolt pistol shot

- 2-4 bolter shots

- 4 power sword attacks

- 14 close combat attacks

- Initial +2 armor save, 3++ saves

- Can retreat and fire at full BS

- Transports: Blackstar

 

The latter Kill Team can be changed to have sooooooo many different shooting combinations but hopefully you see the point. Another thing that isn't completely quantitative is that Termies can deep strike with other units (deep strike, drop pod, transport) and create a solid line of protection for characters. If used this way, it might be best to have multiple supporting units. Termies could also deep strike on objectives as necessary but because they are expensive, you don't want them to far away from the battle either.

 

Just some thoughts to consider, as well as what others have said. I've always viewed the best use of terminators being augmented into kill teams.

[Panzer]

 

-Downside #2: Don't miss your charge! Nothing sucks more than bringing these guys down and you whiff on your charge roll. To prevent this I usually bring a Libby with them and Veil of time the unit. This allows you to re-roll charges, as well as strike first in CC even in your opponents turn. 

 

True, however not something you should rely on. Even with re-rolls the chance to make the charge after deep strike is still less than 50%.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

My main thought on the melta fist over the hammer is that it allows them when deploying behind lines from a corvus as I intend allows them to still fight powerfully if not as reliably and destroy a single high priority target with shooting and melta rolls for damage.

 

 

The kill team option has been very tempting, don't want to commit to heavy thunder hammers and i feel the need to have more staying power in the squad through terminator saves.

[Aothaine]

-Downside #1: The -1 to hit on the t-hammers is really rough, so deep striking a Captain with em to get some sort of re-rolls helps some. Really really sucks we can't take a Chaplin on a jump pack (for now) or else I'd recommend that for the deep strike route. If your running em in a transport bring the cheap old chaplain and your good. 

 

-Downside #2: Don't miss your charge! Nothing sucks more than bringing these guys down and you whiff on your charge roll. To prevent this I usually bring a Libby with them and Veil of time the unit. This allows you to re-roll charges, as well as strike first in CC even in your opponents turn. 

 

This is why Plasma Terminators are the way to go. But Imperials can't do that. So, you have to go with the other best option. Three terminators in a kill team with Assault cannons. Fill the last two slots with Veteran Vanguards with dual plasma pistols each. Then kit out the vets with similar ranged options. And drop the dakka on your opponent. ^_^

[Vel'Cona]

This is why Plasma Terminators are the way to go. But Imperials can't do that. So, you have to go with the other best option. Three terminators in a kill team with Assault cannons. Fill the last two slots with Veteran Vanguards with dual plasma pistols each. Then kit out the vets with similar ranged options. And drop the dakka on your opponent.

 

Inclined to agree, shooting generally wins out over melee "Deep Strike" builds since it's all but guaranteed and even with re-rolls et al Charges can and will fail.  Point-for-point, the AC/Plasma setups offer more bang for your buck.  The Melta's issue is it's optimal @ 6" and you just can't get that close without a transport or 10"+ Move (or both!).  Not that you can't use it @ 12" but then the damage gets crazy spikey, which can flub your carefully laid plans from time to time.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

 

This is why Plasma Terminators are the way to go. But Imperials can't do that. So, you have to go with the other best option. Three terminators in a kill team with Assault cannons. Fill the last two slots with Veteran Vanguards with dual plasma pistols each. Then kit out the vets with similar ranged options. And drop the dakka on your opponent. ^_^

 

 

Inclined to agree, shooting generally wins out over melee "Deep Strike" builds since it's all but guaranteed and even with re-rolls et al Charges can and will fail.  Point-for-point, the AC/Plasma setups offer more bang for your buck.  The Melta's issue is it's optimal @ 6" and you just can't get that close without a transport or 10"+ Move (or both!).  Not that you can't use it @ 12" but then the damage gets crazy spikey, which can flub your carefully laid plans from time to time.

In this instance I didn't make it clear before hand that the unit would be mounted in a corvus.

Location should not be an issue.

When I think plasma I think plasma primaris with the beacon Angelis would do more.

My concern is though having no close combat if needed.

[Aothaine]

 

 

In this instance I didn't make it clear before hand that the unit would be mounted in a corvus.
Location should not be an issue.
When I think plasma I think plasma primaris with the beacon Angelis would do more.
My concern is though having no close combat if needed.

 

 

The plot thickens!

 

There are three reasons to take Terminators with Deathwatch. First, You want access to three Assault Cannons. Second, you want access to a unit that can deep strike that might be a little bit tougher than Veteran Vanguards. Third, You want to give your Kill Team access to Deathwatch Teleport Homer special rule. 

 

Since you are delivering this melee unit via Corvus I would suggest using a kill team. Terminators are kind of poop in melee right now. If you are dead set on using a terminator for your kill team give him two lightning claws. If you want punch take the Veteran Vanguards with vets. If you want the terminator so you can use the beacon then just take one and take one biker.

 

 

 

My Ideal Kill Team that is delivered by a corvus would be the the following with the index rules:

 

Vets x4 (Storm Shield & Shotgun x3, Power Sword & Boltgun x1)

 

Black Shield (Power Axe & Boltgun x1)

 

Veteran Vanguard x3 (HTHx1, Power Axe & Power Sword x2)

 

I don't have my index on me so the weapon selection of the vets and black shield as well as the veteran vanguards might be incorrect. Just giving you a heads up.