Imperial Knights House Traits & Stratagems

[Stray]

Just completely guessing here, but maybe renegades simply use the freeblade rules?

 

Nah, unfortunately not so buddy.

 

We've had it confirmed now, no Chaos or Renegade Knight support in or around the Codex is planned. Only the rules team know whether they have any intention of changing this in the future unfortunately.

 

If you mean we could play 'counts as' and run say a dual avenger Knight as a freeblade - yeah, we could. But that causes problems in and of itself. Supporting units from Ad Mech or Guard etc, are really vastly different from those you'll find in the Chaos lists. Counts as swiftly becomes a band aid at best :/

[Lord_Caerolion]

Surely that would be the case regardless of whether there's a Chaos Knights codex, though? At least, until we get Dark Mechanicus and Chaos Cult books.

 

Who knows, we could even get a Codex: Lost and the Damned eventually, featuring rules for Chaos Cults, Beastmen, Mutants, Renegade Psykers, and Chaos Knights. That, or Chaos Knights just get rolled in to any Dark Mechanicus book that will eventually come out.

[Stray]

Surely that would be the case regardless of whether there's a Chaos Knights codex, though? At least, until we get Dark Mechanicus and Chaos Cult books.

 

Who knows, we could even get a Codex: Lost and the Damned eventually, featuring rules for Chaos Cults, Beastmen, Mutants, Renegade Psykers, and Chaos Knights. That, or Chaos Knights just get rolled in to any Dark Mechanicus book that will eventually come out.

 

Well, no, not so much. Honestly, no-ones ever expecting to get Codex: Renegade Knights. Support is waning to some degree for 'Lost and the Damned' full stop unfortunately. Possibly because of how much FW have on their plate of late.

 

Until now, what we did have was access to the exact same units, at the exact same prices whether we were Imperial aligned, or Chaos aligned. There were differences, but for the most part they were subtle and fluffy, one or two were 'annoying' like the lack of any Stratagems for Renegades.

But, you could take some of the interesting Chaos units along with your Knights, just as the Imperial player could take say Skitarii for Ob sec and the like.

 

Now? Now the armies we've built are irrelevant. If we want to compete on equal terms, we have to disregard everything else we may have as part of a force. In my case as an example, cultists, Hellwrights, Hell Talons, Hell Blades - all fluffy elements of a Renegade House from a Hell Forge world that can't be fielded. Not if we want to play using the new points values, or with the new units.

 

Counts as works just fine if you're ok playing stand alone Knights. But counts as doesn't gel well with fluff either - that too is impacted for those whom it matters to.

 

We're cross, because actually all that was needed was the ability to swap one keyword, for another in this codex. That's it. No more effort required, and you also increase your sales because all those new minis are relevant to an even bigger part of your player base. The ball has really been dropped :/

[Redtoof]

Always a possibility FW will step in with upgrade kits for Chaos versions of the new knights and associated rules, as they did for he original Knight kit. Probably not for some time though if it happens.

 

I'd expect at the very least the Renegade Knight in the index will be updated with new points costs and any relevant special rules, as the Leman Russ was for GS cults after the Guard book.

[Stray]

Always a possibility FW will step in with upgrade kits for Chaos versions of the new knights and associated rules, as they did for he original Knight kit. Probably not for some time though if it happens.

 

I'd expect at the very least the Renegade Knight in the index will be updated with new points costs and any relevant special rules, as the Leman Russ was for GS cults after the Guard book.

 

I think FW is our best hope at this stage, yes. 

 

If I had to guess, I'd say they probably have some very loose ideas for more Dark Mechanicus content at some point - you can see hints of it in keywords for units that FW have put out. But how much impetus there is now is impossible to say. I certainly don't think we'd see anything prior to say Fires of Cyraxis, and to the best of our knowledge that won't be seen until next year now at the earliest.

[Charlo]

Renegades will hopefully get points adjustments.

 

I think GW are keen to not just be like "oh paint them different and they're renegades" when they can instead release different kits down the line. It sucks for the time being but wouldn't you rather wait and see a proper Chaotic knight later on full of Dark Mech tech?

[WarriorFish]

This is a topic about the upcoming house traits, not to complain about the lack of renegade knights. What GW does and when can only be speculated to and should have its own topic accordingly. Thanks.

[Stray]

Renegades will hopefully get points adjustments.

 

I think GW are keen to not just be like "oh paint them different and they're renegades" when they can instead release different kits down the line. It sucks for the time being but wouldn't you rather wait and see a proper Chaotic knight later on full of Dark Mech tech?

 

Absolutely Charlo. I'd very much prefer that. I think we all would.

 

Where I have an issue is being in limbo in the meantime. If we had some confirmation that that *will* appear later, it would be something. We don't even need details, or a time frame, just to know that we're remembered and someone will throw us a bone at some point. The only answer we get though is a 'maybe'.

 

The other issue is the very real risk of having three months of rules available to you before a new edition drops, and you're once again waiting... that's historically been the reality for many.

[Stray]

This is a topic about the upcoming house traits, not to complain about the lack of renegade knights. What GW does and when can only be speculated to and should have its own topic accordingly. Thanks.

 

It's your call.

 

Couldn't it be argued though that:

 

House Ærthegn

House Arcanus

House Atrax

House Black

House Caesarean

House Chromatic

House Devine

House Drakon

House Drear

House Malinax

House Makabius

House Morbidia

House Perdaxia

House Rajha

House Slughorn

House Vyridion

House Hydrax

House Medusos

 

all as legitimate Knight houses, some of whom have specific support from GW in the form of decals etc, are relevant to the discussion in so much as a LACK of support in the form of stratagems and traits surely is part of the discussion surrounding traits and stratagems as a whole?

[WarriorFish]

Unless you can somehow argue that the Imperial Knights codex will have renegade house traits, no. The OP is clear, people are coming here explicitly for the new codex updates and given that there is absolutely nothing stopping the conversation carrying on in a dedicated topic I don't see why you're trying to take the it further off topic with this.

[Stray]

Unless you can somehow argue that the Imperial Knights codex will have renegade house traits, no. The OP is clear, people are coming here explicitly for the new codex updates and given that there is absolutely nothing stopping the conversation carrying on in a dedicated topic I don't see why you're trying to take the it further off topic with this.

 

I think the implication that I'm trying to derail a topic is unfair actually. I'd argue that it has been derailed now, but that isn't of my doing. I asked a question - nothing more. I believe the commentary to be completely on topic for the reasons I point out above - but I'm not willing to have an argument about it, and will happily cease any further discussion as asked.

 

I do think, that your language has been somewhat unnecessarily confrontational and accusatory, in so much as you've said I'm 'complaining' and trying to take things off topic - implying intent. Expressing disappointment about something shouldn't imply that I have an agenda, or am trying to 'complain' (synonyms:  grumble, moan, whine, bleat, carp... - you see the bias in that term I hope?)

[chapter master 454]

Certainly seeing hawkshroud being the best house though their colour scheme is dear emperor awful.

 

Hoping to see some traits that help boost their ability to keep on fighting, main problem with knight armies is that they will suffer from damage tables far more than anyone so hopefully they will have a "Failed System Override" where they can ignore the damage table for a turn for a knight (maybe at the expense of a mortal wound?). Certainly going to be interesting, I would suspect a flanking trait for the armigers as well, something like 3CP for a squad of armigers to appear on a table edge.

[DeStinyFiSh]

It will be interesting to see how they split Stratagems.

There will for sure be one for every Household I guess, but will there also be Stratagems that can only be used by Questor Imperialis or Questor Mechanicus?

 

This would mean:

Stratagems for Everyone

Stratagems only for Imperial or Mechanicus aligned Households

Stratagems that are household specific

 

GW told us there will be tons of Stratagems, but in the end it might boil down to only a few that can be used by your army in a single game (like when playing a Mono God Daemon list).

[KhorneHunter57x]

It will be interesting to see how they split Stratagems.

There will for sure be one for every Household I guess, but will there also be Stratagems that can only be used by Questor Imperialis or Questor Mechanicus?

 

This would mean:

Stratagems for Everyone

Stratagems only for Imperial or Mechanicus aligned Households

Stratagems that are household specific

 

GW told us there will be tons of Stratagems, but in the end it might boil down to only a few that can be used by your army in a single game (like when playing a Mono God Daemon list).

I wouldn't be surprised if it's something like Codex: Chaos Space Marines, where most of the stratagems are generic but there's one for each Legion and one for each alignment.

 

So my guess:

- A bunch of generics

- One for each Household

- One each for Imperialis, Mechanicus, and Freeblades

[PiñaColada]

My guess would be

 

One stratagem for each household

2 for freeblades

2 each for Imperialis/mechanicus generally

8 or so general knight stratagems

 

That would mean 23 stratagems total

 

It'll still be really interesting if all knights get machine spirit resurgent considering how practical that one is for all non-hawkshroud households

[Lysere]

Certainly seeing hawkshroud being the best house though their colour scheme is dear emperor awful.

 

Hoping to see some traits that help boost their ability to keep on fighting, main problem with knight armies is that they will suffer from damage tables far more than anyone so hopefully they will have a "Failed System Override" where they can ignore the damage table for a turn for a knight (maybe at the expense of a mortal wound?). Certainly going to be interesting, I would suspect a flanking trait for the armigers as well, something like 3CP for a squad of armigers to appear on a table edge.

 

Machine spirit Resurgent already exists in the Admech rules so if they don't have a comparable one for non mechanicus knights then GW really messed up. It was the sole reason I even picked up a mechanicus army to run alongside my knight.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there are a couple for each group, not entirely sure what they'd do for them, the mechanicus one in particular since they already have two that overlap with the knights to some degree and Knight of the cog.

[hermanista]

I could see Machine Spirit Resurgent as being one of the Mechanicus Keyword strategems.

 

And then Imperialis getting something else.

[Lord Marshal]

I've spoken to GW this evening and as expected... nothing. They won't confirm any kind of support going forward, won't say if I'll be throwing money away by investing in any of the new kits. One staff member on the community team even laughed and said 'serves you right for turning your back on the Emperor'. I just want to know if what I've invested in over several years will be in any way playable...

 

I'm really getting bored of them using this joke. It was vaguely amusing the first time.

 

Anyway, do we know yet if Freeblades will be their own Household, or?

[PiñaColada]

Alright, so just for fun I thought to look at the traits I guessed we'd get in the beginning of this thread. Some of them are actually panning out while others might become stratagems.

 

- All knights get the super heavy walker rule (to help out armigers), can also consolidate in any direction not just towards nearest enemy unit -This one would be nice but doesn't seem to be happening

- Roll 3d6 when charging, discard the lowest die - House Terryn basically

- +1 Weapon Skill - Hinted at some freeblades would be better shots potentially in the knight reveal article, maybe also has a clos combat equivalent?

- Can recieve canticles of the omnissiah - Already exists as knights of the cog, so nothing new here most likely

- +1 Ballistic Skill if firing all of it's weapons at the same target - House Vulker is pretty similar, though not quite as good

- 5+ Feel no Pain against mortal wounds in the psychic phase - What house Taranis should have been

- On the roll of a 4+ the unit takes d6 mortal wounds when charged by a knight (d3 for armigers) - We have seen nothing like this, yet at least

- Overwatch hits on 5+ -We have seen nothing like this, yet at least

 

Something that improves overwatch would be a nice stratagem, otherwise most of these were added in one way or another. Is there any stratagems you guys have thought up and really want to have included in the 'dex?

[Mushkilla]

[PiñaColada]

House raven is a good trait. The conflagration is going to have a much bigger threat range when it's assault auto hits and getting those armiger thermal lances in half range easier without a penalty is a good thing. The helverin guns also look like they could be heavy so this trait would enable them to use their speed much better.

[Lord Momotaro]

Looks like my newly discovered Knight world follows the traditions of the honorable House Raven

[Mushkilla]

...The helverin guns also look like they could be heavy so this trait would enable them to use their speed much better.

What's weird is if the armigers don't get a special rule that allows them to move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty. If the autocannon guns are heavy (or the current heavy stubber), under the current rules they would have worse BS when moving and not advancing (with house raven). So I imagine armigers will be getting a rule that lets them move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty.

 

I do agree raven is an amazing trait, even just for the extra movement allowing us to play the mission, and adding d6" to our threat ranges making it a lot harder to calculate where you need to be to stay out of our range. Do you assume the knight player always rolls a 6 for his advance? Or do you take a chance and assume he will roll average? Those sort of things can really mess with your opponent.

[PiñaColada]

I'm still real intrigued by freeblades so I'll hold off pledging loyalty just yet haha. I do wonder how the previews are going to work though, it's one a day generally, isn't it? Knights have 9 houses and freeblades so not everything will get previewed, or will we get 2-3 houses in some previews?

[Mushkilla]

With Harlequins they previewed all the masks in one post.