Let's talk about Wyches

[Vel'Cona]

The new 8th edition dex has been mostly spoiled and despite all of the hype, I still don't see how Wyches will be anything but a point sink.  The loss of Haywire Grenades has made this one of the worst units in the DE codex, and GW's attempts to correct this imbalance really haven't corrected the issues.  I've listed a summary of the buffs below for consideration:

 

+ Cult of Strife: +1 attacks when charged/charging/heroic intervention seems useful, but honestly they could give WE 5 attacks each and it still wouldn't get them to the target any better.  Even if you do get there, the notable lack of AP/Mortal Wounds/high Strength attacks means all they can really do is chop up bog-standard Infantry, which is something splinter weapons do in spades at no risk to the unit in question (and with much better chance to wound).

 

+ Cult of the Red Grief: Advance+Charge and re-roll charge ranges.  This is OK, but ultimately access to plenty of transports means you won't really need this in general, unless you tend to roll terribly on charge distances.  Even then, this doesn't do anything to mitigate Overwatch.

 

+ Cult of the Cursed Blade: +1 Strength and only lose 1 model to failed Morale tests.  This is probably the closest to being useful, as it gives Wyches a much better chance against T4 targets and mitigates some of their durability issues, though the big one (getting shot) remains.

 

+ Dodge: Now grants 6+ Invul save.  Combined with PfP, Wyches will now always have two chances to roll a 6 versus normal shooting, as well as innate MW protection (though only just).  Sadly, this still won't prevent them from getting mauled off the table by any reasonable amount of torrent fire, and this remains the Wyches' chief issue.

 

Now, if any of you out there have insights into this problem, I'd love to read them.  As a fan of DE since 5th edition (with their codex reboot), I enjoy the vast majority of their units and I would VERY much like Wyches to find their way to the tabletop :)

[Slips]

You are forgetting their ability thats basically a roll off, where your opponent has to roll higher than you, that prevents units engaged by wyches from falling back.

 

So they already made for decent, if fragile, tarpits especially if you got them to units that never want to be in CC or want to constantly fallback and shoot/charge.

 

We also really dont know if theyre fusing the Bloodbrides entry into the base Wyches like was rumoured to happen to Trueborn and Kabalites.

 

If they do get access to more special weapons and those weapons have improved sufficiently, then they would have their uses.

 

The loss of massed haywire grenades then the subsequent loss of them altogether is really a bummer but GWFB has put them as their #2 most improved unit behind the Talos.

 

So its very likely we have enough to make some guesses at how theyll perform but probably not enough to make final judgements just yet.

[GrinNfool]

The new 8th edition dex has been mostly spoiled and despite all of the hype, I still don't see how Wyches will be anything but a point sink.  The loss of Haywire Grenades has made this one of the worst units in the DE codex, and GW's attempts to correct this imbalance really haven't corrected the issues.  I've listed a summary of the buffs below for consideration:

 

+ Cult of Strife: +1 attacks when charged/charging/heroic intervention seems useful, but honestly they could give WE 5 attacks each and it still wouldn't get them to the target any better.  Even if you do get there, the notable lack of AP/Mortal Wounds/high Strength attacks means all they can really do is chop up bog-standard Infantry, which is something splinter weapons do in spades at no risk to the unit in question (and with much better chance to wound).

 

+ Cult of the Red Grief: Advance+Charge and re-roll charge ranges.  This is OK, but ultimately access to plenty of transports means you won't really need this in general, unless you tend to roll terribly on charge distances.  Even then, this doesn't do anything to mitigate Overwatch.

 

+ Cult of the Cursed Blade: +1 Strength and only lose 1 model to failed Morale tests.  This is probably the closest to being useful, as it gives Wyches a much better chance against T4 targets and mitigates some of their durability issues, though the big one (getting shot) remains.

 

+ Dodge: Now grants 6+ Invul save.  Combined with PfP, Wyches will now always have two chances to roll a 6 versus normal shooting, as well as innate MW protection (though only just).  Sadly, this still won't prevent them from getting mauled off the table by any reasonable amount of torrent fire, and this remains the Wyches' chief issue.

 

Now, if any of you out there have insights into this problem, I'd love to read them.  As a fan of DE since 5th edition (with their codex reboot), I enjoy the vast majority of their units and I would VERY much like Wyches to find their way to the tabletop

I hate to admit it but I don't disagree too much.  I don't think they are as bad as you seem to feel, but I agree, there aren't alot of situations I would rather have wyches over kabalites or wracks.  I do see a few bright sides to them, but I will start with the cult rules

 

Strife - Eh.... 1 extra str 3 attack per wych and only for 1 round of combat, its not the worst its just.... eh.  This is the cult rule that benefits all cult units though, so the most generally useful.  This cults rule is best for Reavers IMHO, if reavers get a cost reduction can totally see an outrider of strife for them.  Hellions reasonable here too due to hit and run.  I think strife will come to for me on whether lelith has been improved if she is still wounding on 4s and 5s she is a pass.

 

Red Grief - This actually isn't bad for wyches, I do this trick with my harlies already but you can just start with the wych transports as close as possible, get the extra 3" move, and then you can advance.  This gives anywhere between 12 to 17" movement, + rerollable charge, they have a chance to pull off T1 charges especially vs medium range armies like marines or necrons.  Its ok for the other stuff wych stuff people going gaga for reavers here it seems, but reavers need the attacks more than movement.

 

Cursed Blade - Probably my fav option too, the only lose 1 model from morale is the biggest thing here.  +Str though actually benefits the wyches reasonably well its slightly better than +1a vs t4 slightly worse vs t3.  Does some interesting things though like making power swords a reasonable take, and making hellions able to put out some high str melee attacks.  Strangely I think getting the extra 1a base might make t4 drug reasonable on them in cursed blade assuming you have no reavers (and reavers are terrible in cursed blade)

 

Far as uses, I think wyches are the only real solution to hordes we have, I highly doubt the shredder has been improved its always been crap can't see it changing now.  A wych squad can certainly help save you from gaunts, genestealers, orks, and the like with the cursed blade even having some uses against ASM, zerks and such.  Guardsmen will require some creativity, but wyches if they get there will certainly deal with them.  Going into the codex hordes are our biggest problem, and wyches seem tailored to deal with that.  Now that being a good thing or not is debatable, because outside of that role all they are there to do is tarpit.  I think a squad or 2 of wyches will find its way into most of my lists if for no other reason than as to be insurance against hordes.  I figure if my opponent isn't play a horde, the wyches are lower priority, and if he shoots at them for fear of being tied up, thats less shots on my more important units vs his army.  After all if its on the table its there to die.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I strongly disagree with the assessment that wyches are still meh. Just look at what you get for 8 pts before even considering traits- 3 attacks, the +6 invul which goes to +4 in melee, the no retreat ability and combat drugs which can turn your wyches into 4 attacks, s4 or t4. Then ok sure let's say you don't like cult of strife, +1 attack on the charge isn't incredible but cursed blade is amazing. You get s4 (or even 5 with drugs!), wyches that can solidly tear things down with their number of attacks, and don't underestimate that +4 invul, it makes them tougher than they look in melee. As if the extra strength wasn't enough, cursed blades lets you take a horde of 20 wyches without worrying about moral. Yes, wyches still die easily to shooting but honestly what did you really expect? They are supposed to be flimsy and don't wear armor, how could you really expect them to suddenly become tough? Plus I'm actually glad haywire grenades are gone, it made them an anti tank unit which was never really their proper purpose, and with blasters being d6 damage now DE really didn't need more anti tank. 

 

Now the one thing I will say about wyches is I'm more excited about using hellions/reavers over wyches, just because of their speed and advance+charge is really strong on reavers which can move 26" and then charge! 

[Withershadow]

Red Grief is definitely fantastic on Reavers if you want to engage stuff first turn.  Charging after advancing and re-rolls on charges are good even with speedy transports, can eliminate the need for the transport, or can utilize the transport to its full capability.  Your raider could advance, still shoot its assault weapon, then reliably charge into something to prevent being shot at. Even if it dies in melee, oh well, it successfully delivered your wyches, whereupon the advance and re-roll just makes them that much more reliable at reaching the opponent.

 

Hellions get the same benefit, they are now D6" faster per turn in exchange for -1 to hit on their splinter pods, and are much more reliable at charges. The +S for S5 glaives and relative morale immunity is also solid, but I am having a hard time choosing hellions over reavers in any circumstance for only a 5 point difference.  There could be some funky Hellion stratagem, however, and with the re-roll you could try deep striking and charging.

[Vel'Cona]

I'd say Red Grief looks a lot better now that we know Reavers are getting a "flyover" Strategem (deals MW on 5+ for each Reaver in the unit) and a frankly insane points reduction.  Reavers in general are MUCH better under the new 'dex and they may be the one thing that "saves" Wych Cults for me.

 

In either case, I can admit that the sheer number of attacks/buffs Wyches can stack does have some merit, and with delivery options so abundant they certainly don't seem useless.  I suppose my largest argument is: "why use Wyches over Kabalite Warriors/Wracks?" As Slips said, we still have a full dex of reveals to consider before making a reasonable judgement, which I must say my opening post didn't imply.  Once we have the complete picture I fully intend to update/correct my opinion here as needed, though you all have definitely got me pondering my stance now! :)

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah red grief looks amazing on reavers, it's basically a guaranteed first turn charge since you're moving 26" (or even 28" if you take the extra movement drug), the assaulting and even rerolling your charge range. You're not just hitting the enemy front lines, you can reach some backfield fire support units with speed like that. As good as reavers look though, I really want to try hellions as well because I just love their models, though since they can bounce in an out of combat cult of strife is probably a better trait for them. Someone over on the dark city also pointed out that hellions can reach strength SEVEN by using cursed blade obsession, +1 strength combat drug and the double your combat drug bonus for a turn stratagem. That would let hellions rip apart most vehicles that are t7 or below. 

 

I'm not sure I have an answer for why wyches over kabalite warriors/wracks yet other than that I just like variety. Granted of course I haven't played any games yet but I think my favorite thing about this codex is how it both makes kabals, cults and covens unique but also lets you fairly easily mold them all together, so I want some representation from all the three troops. Plus I've always wanted to use wyches to remove hordes, and now that they can easily reach 4 attacks not hard for them at all. O and the other major boost to wyches, the shardnet&impaler got changed to forcing enemy units to roll a d3 for the no escape rule which is awesome, can now reliably keep units tied up in assault.  

[Withershadow]

Red Grief have a stratagem that lets you hop into a transport after combat, so it's not completely wasted on Wyches. Advance and charge is also nice, in my opinion, it is effectively an extra D6" to your charge distance.

 

Small shardnet squads can tie down units effectively, and a big blob with tons of attacks is actually one of the more reliable ways Drukhari have to carve away large bubble-wrap units.

[WarriorFish]

Agreed on advance and charge, seen that enough on 'nids so for a unit that wants to be in combat it's very nice.

[Withershadow]

10 Wyches - 3 hydra gauntlets, agonizer, +1A combat drugs = 10 splinter shots, 2 dead guardsmen, 1 dead marine.

24 regular swings = 5.22 dead guardsmen, 1.72 dead marines.

12 hydra gauntlet swings = 5 dead guardsmen, 1.72 dead marines.

4 agonizer swings = 1.32 dead guardsmen, 0.87 dead marines.

 

Total = ~13.5 guardsmen, ~5.3 marines

 

10 warriors - splinter cannon

24 splinter shots = 5.22 guardsmen, 2.6 marines.

 

Splinter rifles are the worst basic infantry weapon in the game, and they don't compare to mass melee attacks for clearing infantry bubble-wraps.  Of course, this is a silly comparison, because you will likely take a dark lance and two blasters on the warriors, so their anti-infantry output is even worse.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Plus, their original role as tank-hunters wasn't really intentional anyway, but rather an oversight of giving them all Haywire Grenades. It never made sense that the gladiatorial pitfighters were used only for blowing up tanks.

[GrinNfool]

10 Wyches - 3 hydra gauntlets, agonizer, +1A combat drugs = 10 splinter shots, 2 dead guardsmen, 1 dead marine.

24 regular swings = 5.22 dead guardsmen, 1.72 dead marines.

12 hydra gauntlet swings = 5 dead guardsmen, 1.72 dead marines.

4 agonizer swings = 1.32 dead guardsmen, 0.87 dead marines.

 

Total = ~13.5 guardsmen, ~5.3 marines

 

10 warriors - splinter cannon

24 splinter shots = 5.22 guardsmen, 2.6 marines.

 

Splinter rifles are the worst basic infantry weapon in the game, and they don't compare to mass melee attacks for clearing infantry bubble-wraps.  Of course, this is a silly comparison, because you will likely take a dark lance and two blasters on the warriors, so their anti-infantry output is even worse.

I mean... while I agree splinter rifles are bad, you need 3 shots to get a single wound on anything other than a vehicle, the lasgun is certainly worse, and would qualify as a basic infantry weapon. There is also an advantage to the splinter rifle over say a bolt gun, while a bolt gun is better in most all circumstances, if you are shooting anything T5 or higher thats not a vehicle, the splinter rifle will drastically out perform most any other basic infantry weapon.  While this certainly isn't enough to redeem, the splinter rifle it is fun to take down a carnifex with basic infantry weapons.  Just saying calling it the WORST infantry weapon is slightly unfair, since its strictly better than a lasgun in most scenarios, and better than a boltgun or shuriken catapult in some situations.  That said... ya its not a great weapon lol.

[Vel'Cona]

I mean, it's a cost-analysis consideration, too.  While the Splinter Rifle isn't a godhammer weapon, Kabalite Warriors are now only 6 points each.  The comparison is a Guardsman @ 4 points (who has a crappier gun and worse WS and BS, and lacks 6+ FnP), or a Guardian that's 2 points more with a better but limited-range gun and otherwise the same stats.  But I digress.

 

It's possible Wyches might be the niche unit now for clearing out hordes/bubble-wrap.  I hadn't considered how important this is at first glance, though it's clear that this is a need DE armies had.  The keys to using them will likely be mitigating Overwatch and maximizing overlapping buffs, as well as getting them into combat ASAP (where they're safer).  Speaking of, do we know how Webway Portals will be handled in 8th?  ie. is this just a Strategem now?

[Lord Asvaldir]

I see where withershadow is coming from, because yeah lasguns are definetly  worse, but guard can also stack on an insane number of shots using orders, just by weight of fire it makes lasgun spam decent. That being said I don't have an issue with splinter rifles at the moment, yeah they shouldn't be equally good against t3 and t8 but o well, GW isn't going to change the mechanic. Plus with how cheap our units are now I finally feel like we can probably get in a nice amount of splinter fire. 6pts warriors just seems almost too good, that's such a great cost for what they give you. 

 

I think wyches can definetly clear out hordes, and even better if they can't finish them off in a turn just make sure to take the shardnet&impaler in each wych unit which will actually turn no escape into a reliable rule. We've actually had the webway portal stratagem since chapter approved came out, works the exact same as eldar (deep strike 1 unit for 1cp, deep strike 2 units for 3 cp). We also having screaming jets though now, which lets you deep strike vehicles for 1cp each, cps wise it's cheaper for deep striking more units. Wyches charging out of the webway isn't a terribly delivery method, I've used it several times but even with the t2 reroll from pfp it's a toss up. I think I'd rather use a raider as my delivery method so I'm trying that out in my first game on Saturday. 

[Withershadow]

Looking forward to reports, I keep going back and forth on raiders/venom, especially with the Tantalus in the mix.

 

Screaming Jets has strange wording. You can use screaming jets as long as you haven't used the webway this battle, so you can use the webway afterwards?  Is that a fluff twist to represent that the guys who deep struck are now deploying the Webway portal?  Or is the intent that you cannot use both stratagems in the same battle.

 

This codex really cannot get here soon enough, I am very curious about what has changed (if anything) with the court and beast models.  I hope all their costs got slashed in half too.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah man I can't wait despite knowing a lot of what's in the codex. How is it only Tuesday, Saturday needs to come quicker. 

 

I think I'm going to stay balanced between using venoms/raiders. Especially because we basically need one archon per 3 warrior squads no matter what detachment you use, I feel like we can't just use 5 mans in venoms anymore, need some 10 mans in raiders as well. 

 

I think basically you can't use screaming jets and wwp in the same battle but I'm not sure, need the book in hand to look at the exact wording of both. 

[Calyptra]

I disagree about splinter rifles; I think they're one of the best weapons in the game. Even if I had the option to take a bolter instead, I would rather have a splinter rifle.

 

First, a splinter rifle's effectiveness is the same regardless of what you're shooting it at, which means you will always know how effective your shooting is likely to be (without having to recalculate for different targets). Being able to predict that easily during a game is a significant advantage.

 

Second, most targets in the game are T 4. Against a T 4 target, a bolter and a splinter rifle are effectively identical. Against everything tougher, the splinter rifle is superior.

 

Only against T 3 targets does the splinter rifle have diminishing returns, but in those circumstances we still generally have an advantage due to range, volume of fire, and accuracy.

 

Bolters are stupid and primitive. Splinter rifles are superior.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Agreed with Calyptra on this one. Splinter Rifles may not be a godhammer at horde clearing, but they make up for that as soon as t4 or higher is on the board. And coupled with anti tank from blasters, Warriors are the bane of Monsters.

 

Another factor to consider is focus fire. Warriors may bring less direct firepower than Wyches for horde clearing, but they have range and positioning to work with. It's much more viable to use positioning to bring multiple warrior squads to bear against a single horde unit while keeping the warriors safe from other counterattacks.

 

I played a warrior in raider spam list back in 5th and 6th, and it functioned entirely by having my raiders jump around so that I could fire my whole army at only a part of theirs. It was very successful except against pure gun line armies. But those were rare in the meta then because they weren't viable for other reasons, and they're not doing much better now thanks to all the deep strike lists.

[Vel'Cona]

So I suppose we've whittled down that Wyches will have a use, but Kabalites remain useful in their own right, as well.  Interesting, perhaps DE will achieve what GW has failed with other armies so many times in the past: making everything viable :)

[Lord Asvaldir]

Kabalites are more than just useful, 6pts is such a steal for their stats and weapon options. Who needs trueborn when you can just take so many warriors now. 

 

I think dark eldar will definetly be pretty close to that everything is viable time. Probably too early to say without the codex in hand yet, but the codex is definetly shaping up to having fixed a lot of units that use to be untakable. 

[Calyptra]

Who needs trueborn when you can just take so many warriors now. 

 

I need Trueborn because they were an awesome, flavorful unit which provided a non-redundant role within the army, and made the Kabals more than just Kabalites. Also, I ordered a lot of bits for converting mine.

 

It's true that I can just finish those conversions and run them out of the Index. It's also true that the blasters I had set aside for my Trueborn are going to get glued onto Scourges instead, because the heat lance and haywire blaster are still not good.

 

I promise to actually talk about Wyches here when I finally have the Codex in my hands.

[Withershadow]

I dig the haywire, especially given its cost.  The math is there, and there are tons of other sources of dark light in the army.

[GrinNfool]

 

Who needs trueborn when you can just take so many warriors now. 

I need Trueborn because they were an awesome, flavorful unit which provided a non-redundant role within the army, and made the Kabals more than just Kabalites. Also, I ordered a lot of bits for converting mine.

 

It's true that I can just finish those conversions and run them out of the Index. It's also true that the blasters I had set aside for my Trueborn are going to get glued onto Scourges instead, because the heat lance and haywire blaster are still not good.

 

I promise to actually talk about Wyches here when I finally have the Codex in my hands.

 

Math says haywire is more cost effective vs t7 or t8 (gun cost not scourge cost being factored in), and actually comes close to 4 blasters vs t8 on average it loses out by .67 damage, although that amount is a coin toss on the averages considering a 4+ save.  Not advocating haywire is amazing, but... I think you are a bit too dismissive of it, I certainly intend to try bringing a squad of scourges with it now and then if the group I am playing with likes their vehicles.

[Vel'Cona]

I have many thoughts about where Scourges stand with the new 'dex, but I'm going to save them for dedicated threads down the line.  Really, other than Dark Lances I'd argue every gun has a reasonable use for them, now.

[Lord Asvaldir]

 

Who needs trueborn when you can just take so many warriors now. 

I need Trueborn because they were an awesome, flavorful unit which provided a non-redundant role within the army, and made the Kabals more than just Kabalites. Also, I ordered a lot of bits for converting mine.

 

It's true that I can just finish those conversions and run them out of the Index. It's also true that the blasters I had set aside for my Trueborn are going to get glued onto Scourges instead, because the heat lance and haywire blaster are still not good.

 

I promise to actually talk about Wyches here when I finally have the Codex in my hands.

 

 

That's fair, if I put a lot of effort into converting up some trueborn I'd definitely want to keep using them. I however settled for being easy and boring and just started painting my trueborn differently, easy enough to fix once I heard trueborn were getting dropped. 

 

Agree about the heatlance, no matter its pts cost s6 is just awful on an anti-tank weapon, and 9" melta range is a real problem for deep striking. The haywire blaster on the other hand is definetly worth taking I think. In certain matchups against say guard who have a lot of t8 vehicles, and necrons which have quantum shielding the haywire blaster will be very efficient. Plus a little variety in weapons will be nice. 

 

I'll be trying 10 wyches in a raider with all the special weapons running the red grief obsession in my first game on Saturday, I'll report back on how they do.