Deathwatch Codex Hopes and Dreams

[Sea-People]

So it's that time again...

 

What are your hopes and dreams for a solid Deathwatch Codex on the horizon? Here goes...

 

BIG CHANGES

 

- Bring the cost of veterans in line with sternguard (ie don't pay for special issue ammo)

- Expand the weapons and units that can make use of special issue ammo

- New character units such as techmarine, apothecary, lieutenant, ancient, etc.

- Removal of arbitrary restrictions on wargear

- Kill Teams: Make them out of ANY combo of units. No veteran tax required! (Aggressors + hellblasters anyone? Vanguard Vets + Bikes?)

- An army wide special rule that makes up for our lack of bodies and durability (or better yet watch fortress tactics...)

-Allow us to add bonuses to each kill team in a manner similar to how combat drugs work. Would be cool to allow each team to specialize.

 

INDIVIDUAL UNITS & WARGEAR

 

-Corvus: Points drop or add "power of the machine spirt." Or both.

-Terminators, V.Vets: min size of 3

- Shotguns, Infernus Bolter, Frag Cannon: All need points cuts. The infernus and shotgun especially so. Maybe make the Infernus bolter assault as well.

-Stalker Bolter: points drop or add sniper rule. Or Both.

 

STRATAGEMS

-1CP: mission tactics as stratagems: re-roll hits/wounds of 1 (or +1 hit/wound) against given force org slot.

-1CP: pick 2 effects of Special Ammo for a unit (also works for shotguns)

-1CP: +1 damage for Special Ammo for a unit (also works for shotguns)

-1CP/3CP: Deepstrike Stratagem in the same vein as webway portal

-1CP: Deepstrike a Corvus Blackstar (Cloudstrike, etc.)

-2CP: Additional -1 to hit on a Corvus Blackstar

 

RELICS

-Some sort of regain CP relic

-A Juiced up Xenophase blade

-A banner that boosts special ammo somehow (or one that provides durability)

 

 

 

I've tried to keep my expectations somewhat reasonable and In line with previous Codexes. I also tried to center on Deathwatch-specific wargear and units rather than bring stuff from the Space Marine armory because Generic Marines are going to do that sort of thing better anyway. I'd rather Deathwatch be their own unique thing like Grey Knights or Blood Angels (obviously with a competitive level closer to Blood Angels!). Personally I don't like the idea of mixed kill teams that much. I think that having a unit of footsloggers with the errant jump pack and bike mixed in looks silly on the tabletop. However a focus on kill teams seems to be the way GW is going so being able to pick a combination from any available unit is the next best thing. I'll add more if I think of anything else!

[Moostick]

I hope they try.

 

I'd be disappointed if all they do are small point reductions here and there. If they revamp everything and it still fails, at least they tried. Point reduction is the lazy way out, and won't fix us (unless they're huge enough to ridiculous levels). Even our unique weapons (IHB, HTH, and, to a lesser extent, FC) are absolutely terrible compared to other factions'.

 

Worst case: Vets cost Sternguard pts with nothing new, and SIA is made into Chapter Tactics. If this happens, I will fly to the UK, knock on the head DW designer's office, shake my head at the person for 5 seconds, and leave.

[Vel'Cona]

Some of the Strategems/Relics are pretty obvious given what we've seen from the horde of other Astartes books in 8th.  The real shift will be how they handle our USR(s) (Combat Tactics, SIA, etc.).  Though I'd like to echo Moostick in that the most important change is an across-the-board points adjustment, which IMO CA 2017 didn't properly address.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think they need to start from square one, I think the theme of the old book was to build around kill teams. Which in an edition with invisible death stars, and daemon summoning with no restrictions just wasn't going to work.

 

If they want to go with the same theme that's fine, but they need to enable it. We need stratagems that give us deployment options, gives boosts to our kill teams so that they can handle everything, and either gives us the offense to be a glass cannon or the durability that t4 3+ models quite frankly lack.

 

P.S. Point drops as well lol 

[Sea-People]

I think they need to start from square one, I think the theme of the old book was to build around kill teams. Which in an edition with invisible death stars, and daemon summoning with no restrictions just wasn't going to work.

 

If they want to go with the same theme that's fine, but they need to enable it. We need stratagems that give us deployment options, gives boosts to our kill teams so that they can handle everything, and either gives us the offense to be a glass cannon or the durability that t4 3+ models quite frankly lack.

 

 

Sadly, GW has already announced at adepticon that there will be Primaris kill teams, which leads me to believe that the Codex will still center around kill teams. As I said in my original post, I don't like the idea of mixed unit kill teams. It Just doesn't make sense to me. Why are there bikes being slowed down by footsloggers that need to keep up? You get the idea. But if mixed Kill Teams are the way GW is going then being able to build a kill team out of any combination is the next best thing IMO. A team made up of vanguard veterans and bikers would be pretty sweet!

[GrinNfool]

Eh for me there are a few things I would love to see.  I am sure its wish listing but one can hope.

 

1) I don't want to see an army wide tactic, let each marine have his tactic from his chapter on a model basis.  Can prevent it from being silly by limited to 2 models from a chapter in a kill team.  This would fit the theme of "your guys" as well as be thematic to deathwatch, they don't all suddenly get a buff by being deathwatch, they are pulled together to put the right person in the right job, a blood angel with a power sword, a salamander with a flamer etc.

 

2)Some strategem that allows one model to apply its tactic to the squad, but the rest of the squad loses their normal tactic in exchange.

 

3) Primaris getting special issue ammo

 

4) Vet and Vanguard vet cost reductions of at least 2-3 points ea.  They are more expensive than Primaris of half the wounds.

 

5) Would like to see Infernus made useable, its over costed atm, you would never take 1 over a frag.

[Claws and Effect]

1) I don't want to see an army wide tactic, let each marine have his tactic from his chapter on a model basis. Can prevent it from being silly by limited to 2 models from a chapter in a kill team. This would fit the theme of "your guys" as well as be thematic to deathwatch, they don't all suddenly get a buff by being deathwatch, they are pulled together to put the right person in the right job, a blood angel with a power sword, a salamander with a flamer etc.

 

That's not going to work.

 

Because you target units, not models. How is a Raven Guard (or their successors) going to get any use out of the -1 to hit if he's 1 guy in a unit of 6?

 

You roll charges for whole units, you can't reroll for just the Black Templar.

 

And when you're firing bolters you'd have to roll each one individually. "Okay, this guy is an Imperial Fist so this shot ignores cover, this guy is a Salamander so he can reroll." Etc.

 

It would be thematic, but it would be a nightmare of extra stuff to keep track of.

 

Watch Fortress Traits is probably how they'll go. There are at least 4 in the lore to choose from.

[Matt_149]

I think having individual models affected by individual tactics in a squad may be to cumbersome?

[Fanatic Xenophobe]

 

1) I don't want to see an army wide tactic, let each marine have his tactic from his chapter on a model basis.  Can prevent it from being silly by limited to 2 models from a chapter in a kill team.  This would fit the theme of "your guys" as well as be thematic to deathwatch, they don't all suddenly get a buff by being deathwatch, they are pulled together to put the right person in the right job, a blood angel with a power sword, a salamander with a flamer etc.

I think this is a terrible idea. If chapters matter for unique models, you'd have to remodel a lot of models that you already have if you want to get specific bonuses. It also means that certain models would have to be of certain chapters, and it would just make every squad repetitive. This is an awful idea on so many levels, and I feel like this would be a killing blow to the free modelling/customization of appearance for your DW vets.

 

Anyhow, some of my random wishes:

- Heavy Thunderhammer to deal an additional d3/d6 mortal wounds on the Wound roll of 6

- Remove arbitrary and stupid restrictions on wargear (especially for HQs). I want terminators and HQs with HTHs, because that would be cool.

- allow terminatos to use combi-weapons. I want combi-melta + meltafist because its cool.

- DW should have regular apothecaries. Its really stupid that we don't.

- Corvus can take primaris

- 1 or 2 CP stratagem to deep strike any DW unit

- 1 CP stratagem to give enemies -1 to hit when shooting at unit during that shooting phase

- make Xenophase blade ignore invuln. saves intead of re-roll successful

[Vel'Cona]

I'm definitely curious how they'll handle mixed Primaris/Traditional Marine KTs since the armament is really the key gameplay feature of DW compared to other SM factions.  Will Primaris keep Bolt Rifles/ABR/SBR or will there be a new SIA to address their guns?  What about Hellblasters?  Inceptors?  Definitely a lot of eyebrows to raise on this one.

[Xisor]

Some months back, I enumerated the, err, number of variations of bolt weapon available in the game.

 

It's astonishing. A good 30+.

 

I think the Sternguard treatment across the board (with SIA shifting to Stratagems, and DW having access to 'relatively cheap' CPs/discounts-on-strategems) would be most simple.

 

E.g.

Deathwatch Boltgun - Rapid Fire 1, 24", S4, -1, 2D, Special Issue*, also on combi-/storm- equivalents appropriately.

Deathwatch Stalker - Heavy 2, 36", S4, -1, 2D, Special Issue*

Deathwatch Bolt Pistol - Pistol 1, 12", S4, -1, 2D, Special Issue*

Deathwatch Heavy Bolter - Heavy 3, 36", S5, -2, 2D, Special Issue*

 

The only 'special' (or rather: normal) cases that need their own bits are 'boltstorm gauntlets' and 'heavy bolt pistols' from the Primaris, where the Special Issue aspect wouldn't apply. (And the various Special Issue stratagems only apply to weapons with the Special Issue field. Or perhaps abstract all this as Keyword. It's easier to engineer that way, but not easier to reference.)

 

----

 

Other wishes:

- Techmarines, Apothecaries, Thunderfire Cannons etc.

- All vehicles (Vindicators, Stormwolves, Nephelim etc).

- Deathwatch supersedes Primaris/old-fart where transporting is concerned (DW Primaris can ride in DW Rhinos, DW Vets can ride in Repulsors).

- Ordo Xenos, Adeptus Astra Telepathica (inc. Sisters of Silence?), and Tech-Priests(?) 'count-as' Deathwatch for list integrity purposes. (They're usually dragged along for some reason or another.)

[Vel'Cona]

It's astonishing. A good 30+.

 

I mean, as a Techpriest at heart this fills me with joy.  But as a critic of game design, holy crap

[Prot]

Personally I’m tired of wishlisting on Deathwatch. It feels like I’ve been doing it since 7th Edition. That said at this point my one true hope is that this doesn’t turn out to be a very boring, one dimensional codex that just happens to include Primaris with SIA.

[Vel'Cona]

So far, being a later codex has played true to the GW style of slight power creep and "getting it right" in equal measure, so DW by all rights should be outstanding since they're so far back in the queue (see also Orks) :)

[Prot]

So far, being a later codex has played true to the GW style of slight power creep and "getting it right" in equal measure, so DW by all rights should be outstanding since they're so far back in the queue (see also Orks)

 

I hate to sound jaded... really I do. The thing is I look at how much of the line GW feels they can sell, and I compare it to Grey Knights, or even Thousand Sons. With Grey Knights they felt they could sell one model... GM Nemesis Dreadknights. The rest of the codex is quite mediocre, and the market was already flooded with their model line.

 

Thousand Sons. Not much to sell here.... until they added the AoS line. Now Tzaangors, and Mutilators, AoS dudes with Bows and Arrows are fantastic choices!

 

With DW they've run the gambit. Almost everyone in this thread will have been on the line since 7th ed. We all have enough DW boxes to last us a long time... Unless you include... Primaris!

 

Primaris still aren't a great option to me. They're a slightly elite pointed marine that will be plugged into a (presently) largely overcosted codex.

 

In my  mind a lot has to happen for this codex to be more than a blip on the radar, or another GK. And we don't have the 'new' models to make it a "Custodes" result instead.

 

Now as bad as that sounds I think there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Just like GK there are very easy fixes that if properly applied give us a very playable codex. We don't have to be the GK of 8th edition; we could be the Custodes.

 

My guess is somewhere in between. Perhaps we become the army that everyone likes 'one unit' of in their existing detachments. While some would call that fluffy, I'd be disappointed. We'll see. I think we still have lots of time.

[Delta.Skies]

As a newcomer to deathwatch in general and researching and cross referencing one thing I would like to see is a deathwatch champion maybe as an HQ choice or an elite. They mention alien technology, but the only thing I've come across is xenophase blade. The heavy limitations on hqs I believe should be lifted. So much cross referencing on that one. Gravis armor options and of course boltstorm gauntlets and maybe sia on stormbolters. Other than that I'm really just expecting what we can and can not do that other chapters can. Either way I probably still wouldn't do a pure deathwatch list anyway. Seems like I would be asking for trouble starting out.

[Xisor]

What about them Dark Eldar? No new models at all (best I can see), yet an exquisite overhaul that makes pretty much everything seem attractive and viable, without having had an exact look at the Codex.

 

If someone on the Dev team just happens to be infected with such enthusiasm for the DW, and some creative wisdom...

 

(Thanks, I'm in precisely zero doubt, in part to Andy Chambers and Phil Kelly riffing of each others' work to make The DE and Commoragh one of, if not the most, vibrant and bizarre and alive places of 40k. If you've not read AndyC's stories, youre sorely missing out.)

[Skaorn]

They could also make it into something like the Tau codex which, while not bad, is definitely not as good as others that came before and is the weakest of the 3 in their release bubble. When it is released doesn't necessarily equal how good it will be.

 

I think it would be possible to do something to represent that each KT comes from different chapters with different faction traits but it would have to apply to the whole squad at once. You could do something as simple as the squad leader determines the KT faction trait to, at the start of each of your turns, each KT chooses a pointman that dictates the faction trait for that round. Certain traits might need to be reworked like the Raven Guard (which I think is a bad trait as is) or the Salamanders (which kind of seems silly to suddenly have for a turn).

[Moostick]

I think it would be possible to do something to represent that each KT comes from different chapters with different faction traits but it would have to apply to the whole squad at once. You could do something as simple as the squad leader determines the KT faction trait to, at the start of each of your turns, each KT chooses a pointman that dictates the faction trait for that round. Certain traits might need to be reworked like the Raven Guard (which I think is a bad trait as is) or the Salamanders (which kind of seems silly to suddenly have for a turn).

 

Think about how you'd feel if any other army could do this. Probably not going to like that very much.

 

While SM tactics are pretty sub-par compared to the newer codices', you'll essentially be using RG/IF all the time until they get close, which would then still be restricted to a certain few depending on the situation (BA/UM/DA). This leads to every single unit having the exact same chapter compositions, if we stick with WYSIWYG, leading to a pretty silly looking DW force.

[Skaorn]

First off, I said it would be possible to do based on earlier discussion in the thread, not that it should be done. Second, it wouldn't bother me that much as KTs are supposed to be a mix of veteran SM from different chapters smushed into one squad. If there is an army that could pull off using different SM faction traits in different squads then it would be DW. It wouldn't annoy me near as much as things like mortal wound and HQ spam.

[Moostick]

That's fair, but kind of strange to talk about that considering essentially just about anything can be done. It's always about whether it should be done. This has been discussed several times on this board, but now I understand you never saw those.

 

Fluff wise, sure. Gameplay why, it would be an absolute mess.

[Azaiel]

Saw this over at Dakkadakka:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/754328.page

 

Take it with a bucket of salt....

[Prot]

Okay.... just for funsies!

 

Codex Deathwatch: 

This is the go codex for primaris: they called it the codex Primawatch 

- For primaris You can mix unit like this : 5 intercessors ( barebone) + a mix of 5 other miniatures from primaris ( for example agressors, hellbasters, interceptors) 

Tactical flexibility stratagem to split your squad 

+Codex Primawatch? Just rolls off the tongue doesn't it? Sounds like a kinetic time piece or something...

 

Mixing Primaris types does make sense to me simply because this plays towards my fears; that is to say this is the codex that just pushes Primaris deep into the existing model line (which I already mentioned I believed would happen because we own all the kits... in my case, multiples!)

 

- There will be a stratagem ( Teleportarium) to deepstrike a unit of death watch. 

 

 

 

+ My cat could have given me this rumour.

 

 

- Stratagem to give sniper rules on death watch unit against xenos . ( they take for example hellblasters sniping synapse tyranid) 

 

 

+ Sure. Why not? Situational, but there already is a sniper type unit. I'd love to see how this will pan out on a unit with missile launchers though. Seems like there would be more to this.

 

 

 

- Stratagem auspex scan but work without deepstrike against xenos ( they take examples pointys ears that come at 12”inch and you shoot at them) 

 

 

+ Huh? You can use Auspex scan against Xenos? Okay. Sure.

 

 

 

- Something to reroll wounds against troops? not precised if stratagem 

 

 

+ Hrmm... sounding a lot like that old Warlord trait for xenos? 

 

- They talk about something that can remove tau markerlights? no idea of what type of things that can be 

 

+ Wish I knew who 'they' were. This is almost indecipherable to me.  Removing marker lights... as in physically off the table? Or ruleswise? Or negating their abilities? 
 

Kill team will be out the same month than deathwatch codex

 

+ My cat had this one too.

 

What does it all boil down to? 

-a focus on Primaris? 

- recycled some old formation abilities into Strategems? 

 

I guess we'll wait for some real juice on this!

 

I'm excited though. It's around the corner. I do think it will look goofy as heck if I had my MK7's running around leading a bunch of Primaris.

 

 

[Boyadventurer]

I can get it becoming Primawatch (of course the best equipped group of marines out there should be getting fully loaded on the new super marines -- who already have been operating in multi-chapter units -- it's a good fit), but if they are going to be taking over, they need to get the full compliment of DW goodies -- SIA, riding in Corvus, Primaris Watchmaster, etc.

 

If they're going to ram it down everyone's throats, it should at least be fully integrated.

 

Edit: OHH!! On the topic of new models, this *does* seem like a logical time to release that "looks like a corvus but for primaris" flyer that was mentioned in DI

[Skaorn]

That's fair, but kind of strange to talk about that considering essentially just about anything can be done. It's always about whether it should be done. This has been discussed several times on this board, but now I understand you never saw those.

Fluff wise, sure. Gameplay why, it would be an absolute mess.

Well maybe I'm justed used to playing with more complicated game systems. I don't see where it would be more of a mess than keeping track of what marks, veteran skills, and/or daemonic gifts your units had access to in CSM 3.5. Even a system of changing faction traits for each squad each round wouldn't be a real problem to keep track of. Now if it was faction traits based per model in the squad, as suggested earlier in the thread, then yes, that would be too much of a pain.