MarineRaider Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 I just finished this book. I must say it's the best HH novel I have read in a bit...I've read them all. They are really moving the story towards conclusion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchu warlord Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 I have not read it yet, and have no idea when I will... Can you please spoil it for me? How does it end? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5050383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 There's already a thread on this, including some spoiler discussion. I should know, I was the one who was providing a lot of the spoilers... http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5050478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 would anyone that has read Wolfsbane mind telling me if there is any direct mention of Prospero in the Russ/Horus confrontation? I have seen there is a little self reflective moment from Russ early on, but I was wondering if it's ever voiced between the two Primarchs when it's all come to light. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5050605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 No, Russ and Horus never mention the actions of Prospero. Russ is busy trying to get Horus to see how everything has become corrupted by Chaos, and Horus flits between anger and trying to recruit Russ to his cause. Somehow it feels like something that should have come up somewhere... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5050756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 There's already a thread on this, including some spoiler discussion. I should know, I was the one who was providing a lot of the spoilers... http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/ Re-read your (excellent as always) SPOILERED summary. Few quick questions (can PM answers if you don't want to share here): -is there any indication of the timetables between Sanguinius' arrival on Terra and A. when Russ attacks the Vengeful Spirit B. by extrapolation of A, when Horus is expected to arrive in the Sol System? -interactions between Sanguinius and Russ. Really curious if they even speak to each other, let alone how they regard each other -does there appear to be a singular commander of the defence of the Sol System? I imagine it's Dorn, but really curious to see how Russ, Sangy, Dorn, and Khan all interact with each other...especially if it's like "me casa su casa" or if there's jockeying about for position -does this take away the thunder of the final showdown between Sanguinius and Horus (based on the known lore from the past few decades) or does it potentially enhance it? Subjective, of course. Maybe I'm getting old, but I've gotten to the point where I'd rather know what happens in BL books ahead of time to decide if I should embark and enjoy the journey rather than waiting in suspense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5051543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarineRaider Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 Sorry that I did not know there was another thread....I went back 4 pages! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5051548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Last I checked it got locked because of silly circular arguments or off topic stuff, I believe. So no worries, a new thread was best anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5051751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchu warlord Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Maybe I'm getting old[er], but I've gotten to the point where I'd rather know what happens in BL books ahead of time to decide if I should embark [,pay some money] and enjoy the journey rather than waiting in suspense. My friend. We are in agreement there. For those that have read the book, what did you though of Belisarius Cawl? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5051766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fang_Guard23 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Maybe I'm getting old[er], but I've gotten to the point where I'd rather know what happens in BL books ahead of time to decide if I should embark [,pay some money] and enjoy the journey rather than waiting in suspense. My friend. We are in agreement there. For those that have read the book, what did you though of Belisarius Cawl? First off, I've been hoping that someone was going to re-open the old thread but I've been wanting to share about this when I finally got my hands on the book. I got my hands on the book a few weeks ago and was able to finish it in 3 days time. Cawl's story felt a little intrusive, and the reason that it did was because GW had to establish a HH connection for Cawl. Gungnir was an interesting revelation for the book, and i'm hoping that we hear more about Syrtyr's Door in the 42nd Millennium Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5051800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarineRaider Posted April 10, 2018 Author Share Posted April 10, 2018 Maybe I'm getting old[er], but I've gotten to the point where I'd rather know what happens in BL books ahead of time to decide if I should embark [,pay some money] and enjoy the journey rather than waiting in suspense. My friend. We are in agreement there. For those that have read the book, what did you though of Belisarius Cawl? I actually liked the Cawl portions. I also liked that it was an " optimistic" HH novel for the loyalist from my perspective. The Loyal Primarchs spoke of winning for a change. After 10 years and reading all these books it becomes rather depressing watching guys you start to like get killed off with no end in sight. I did not take away that this story diminishes the Angel in the least. I believe his victory is a spiritual one involving the warp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5051812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 For me, I really disliked the Cawl inclusion in this book, his character didn't really add anything to the narrative. It may be that this is the starter of a longer Cawl arc that has him end up in the Ultramar system and meeting up Guilliman, but from a a standalone perspective there's no requirement for Cawl that a regular tech-adept couldn't fill. There's a little discussion with one of his "friends" at the beginning of the book where they're discussing the standard Mechanicum practice of replacing human / bionic elements with mechanical systems, and Cawl goes against the grain and suggests that the mechanism in which Astartes are produced (e.g. genetic manipulation through gene-seed) was arguably the better / superior option. It's a refreshing view, until you see his 40k model... And the less said about Cawl being forced to kneel at the Warmasters feet the better, that was bad writing. @Indefragable - I'll answer your questions in spoiler tags, it'll be out soon enough now. Previously with it being such a long time to it's release I didn't want to put too much of it out there. In terms of timeline there isn't much time passed between Sanguinius returning to Terra and Russ leaving, literally a couple of days. The book starts with Russ on Terra being debriefed by the team that attacked the Venegeful Spirit and placed the various tracer / direction markers, Loken being the last of them. Sanguinius' arrival pretty much directly follows, with Malcador and the Primarchs taking council to hear what's been happening in Ultramar. Russ declares at that meeting that he's off to kill Horus, and leaves to make preparations to take his Legion away from Terra. In terms of when Horus is expected to arrive and begin the siege, Dorn is expecting it any day - it's literally minutes to midnight in his eyes. Hence why the remaining Primarchs and Malcador disagree with the removal of strategic forces away from the defence. There's not a lot of discussion between the Primarchs. There's a single chapter (If I recall correctly) where they are all together before Russ moves on and story follows. Russ is written really well, so its a bit of a let down when the other Primarchs aren't given the same level fo treatment as most of them come across flat. If you're looking for some insightful looks into the Angel, you're not going to get it from this novel. Dorn is focussed on defence (he's the defacto commander of the solar defence), and the Khan is there. Finally, yeah there was a lot of speculation around whether the ending of this novel steals the limelight from the Angel at his final fight aboard the Venegeful Spirit. At the time it was a bit of an awkward discussion, as only a couple of us had read the book on this forum, and I in particular don't want to give away too much too soon. There's still a large section of the book on Fenris which I still haven't touched upon for a number of reasons - mainly because it's really quite cool, but also because it doesn't massively factor into the grand scheme of the HH plot line. It's not a massive physical wound for a Primarch to take, most would come back after a little time healing up. Horus has already healed by the time the novel ends, and his armour is going to be quickly repaired especially given that they've just taken over a Forge World on the way to their final staging ground. The only real effect that Horus will have going forward will be that (I imagine) every now and again he'll come-to like he's waking up from a dream and be the pre-Davin Horus for a short time before the tendrils of Chaos tighten their grip again. Honestly, I don't see it affecting the Angel's plot line one iota: Sanguinius will still go with Emperor in the boarding action to the Vengeful Spirit, knowing that it will lead to his separation and death. Horus will still try to tempt the Angel to his side, and Sanguinius will refuse (side note, I hope we don't have the same level of 'tempting' that we had for Russ in this novel. It was cringe-worthy at best, and I could hear Horus twiddling an invisible moustache and laughing maniacally whilst delivering his lines. Actually, 70% cliched moustache-twirling bad guy, 30% Zoidberg) During their fight Sanguinius will still pierce Horus' armour, leaving a small opportunity for the Emperor later. The sight of Sanguinius' dead body will finally resolve the Emperor that there is nothing left of Horus to redeem, and he needs to be destroyed. I also hope that during Lupercal's lucid moment that he see's the body of his brother, realises that he killed him, and it breaks him. So, no I don't see it as Sanguinius' role in the final battle being replaced, I see this as one of the first actions of physically setting up that battle in the novel series. Yes, I suppose it was a bit of a more optimistic tone to the novel - although it did leave the majority of the Space Wolves dead, their Primarch badly injured and unconscious, and the remainder were somewhat out of place for a final defence of Terra. But at the beginning of the novel, during the council fo the Primarchs, it was Russ that only spoke of trying to stop the Heresy in it's tracks before it even reached the Sol system. The others were firmly in the position that there was no stopping Horus before he could reach the outer reaches of Sol, and that a final battle above Terra was inevitable. Technically speaking, they were right - but there had to be a reason to get Russ and the Wolves off of Terra before the main Siege begins, the arrival of Russ and the Lion to the end of the Siege is pretty iconic and not something they could brush under the carpet and hope people ignore. Equally they couldn't just give Russ a storyline that got him of Terra for no reason other than to get stomped on by a vastly superior force (Leaving Fenris I think the majority of the Wolves were on their way to the Vengeful Spirit, number around 40,000 after various defeats from Prospero and afterwards. The fleet with the Venegeful Spirit at the start of the attack had elements from the Night Lords and Word Bearers alongside the Warmasters' own, so the Wolves were going in massively outnumbered) - there needed to be a point, and there needed to be a win for Russ no matter how small it seemed at the time. 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Indefragable Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Thanks for indulging me once again, m_r_parker. You've convinced me that it could be worth picking up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5052245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedor Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 I never got the impression from the old lore that the idea of Sanguinius opening a weak spot in the armour was all that important to the key emotional beats of his confrontation with Horus anyway. It was more a bit of additional speculation/Blood Angels mythology was it not? I'm not sure i really want to see a big fight between Sang and Horus tbh, i think a cold blooded murder by OP Horus on a worn down from the siege Sanguinius after some brief words between the two will have much more impact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5052360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 I never got the impression from the old lore that the idea of Sanguinius opening a weak spot in the armour was all that important to the key emotional beats of his confrontation with Horus anyway. It was more a bit of additional speculation/Blood Angels mythology was it not? I'm not sure i really want to see a big fight between Sang and Horus tbh, i think a cold blooded murder by OP Horus on a worn down from the siege Sanguinius after some brief words between the two will have much more impact. Aside about Sangy vs Horus: Hidden Content I think the reason for a BIG showdown between Sanguinius and Horus is in part because we have not really seen Sanguinius do that much throughout the series. Going all the way back to the oldest of lore, Russ was always known for beating Magnus...so there's less narrative intrigue (arguably speaking) for Russ and Horus to duke it out. In comparison, there are tons tidbits about how Horus "feared Sanguinius most of all." Or how Horus felt "Sanguinius should have been chosen Warmaster." Things like that...but we're mostly told it rather than shown why Horus feels that way. So in literary/narrative sense, it makes sense to first show Sanguinius going beast-mode at the Siege to better get a sense of his capabilities--even compared to his brothers--and then show just how utterly useless those impressive capabilities are against upgraded Horus. If the primarch who is the "best of us" can not but manage a single chink in the armor of the deamonic Horus...what hope is there for the rest of the Imperium? It helps show both just how far Horus has fallen as well as just how powerful he is so that its credible that he can manhandle the Emperor himself. From a character standpoint too, it makes sense for Sanguinius to be the symbol of everlasting hope fearlessly taking the fight to the heart of the enemy. We get to see so many of the Primarchs at their unique peaks: Dorn, he who is the epitome of the unmovable fortress, planning and running the defence of Terra itself Khan, the lightning bolt who never stays still, ranging about with all of Terra as his battleground to harry, harrass, and confound the traitor forces Russ, the aloof one who has always been headstrong and willful, striking out on his own in a seemingly suicidal attempt to cut off the head of the enemy Perturabo, the unstoppable force to Dorn's immovable object, leading the siege efforts that will break the greatest walls ever constructed in human history etc... ...so it make sense to see Sangy as "hope eternally raging against the long night" in his final moments. Or...you know...it could just be like Horus: "hey bro, want to join me? Chaos is pretty kewl." Sanguinius: "nah, bro. I'm good." <zap>. Horus: "hey Dad, remember that time I wanted to play catch..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5052398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarineRaider Posted April 10, 2018 Author Share Posted April 10, 2018 No, Russ and Horus never mention the actions of Prospero. Russ is busy trying to get Horus to see how everything has become corrupted by Chaos, and Horus flits between anger and trying to recruit Russ to his cause. Somehow it feels like something that should have come up somewhere... Actually, they do...it is a quick line but Horus gloats. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5052435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchu warlord Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Maybe I'm getting old[er], but I've gotten to the point where I'd rather know what happens in BL books ahead of time to decide if I should embark [,pay some money] and enjoy the journey rather than waiting in suspense. My friend. We are in agreement there. For those that have read the book, what did you though of Belisarius Cawl? I actually liked the Cawl portions. I also liked that it was an " optimistic" HH novel for the loyalist from my perspective. The Loyal Primarchs spoke of winning for a change. After 10 years and reading all these books it becomes rather depressing watching guys you start to like get killed off with no end in sight. I did not take away that this story diminishes the Angel in the least. I believe his victory is a spiritual one involving the warp. That is good to hear. WH40k is a grim dark place, and if one does not appreciate its terrible beauty, then WH40k is not a Sci-fi setting for them to indulge in. However... you can only read too many grim dark stuff with a despaired environment. But as you say, some hopeful moments are a nice change. ... - although it did leave the majority of the Space Wolves dead, their Primarch badly injured and unconscious, and the remainder were somewhat out of place for a final defence of Terra. ..Since I first read A Thousand Sons, I've been waiting for this moment for a very very long time . Thank you for making my day Mr. m_r_parker. A question to those who have read it. Is Belisarius Cawl, in anyway, like a good version of Fabius Bile? (Considering that Cawl is sort of a clone-master himself) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5052537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 I never got the impression from the old lore that the idea of Sanguinius opening a weak spot in the armour was all that important to the key emotional beats of his confrontation with Horus anyway. It was more a bit of additional speculation/Blood Angels mythology was it not? I'm not sure i really want to see a big fight between Sang and Horus tbh, i think a cold blooded murder by OP Horus on a worn down from the siege Sanguinius after some brief words between the two will have much more impact. I love when a noob comes in and insults one of the best Primarchs ever. /rolleyes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5052627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 I never got the impression from the old lore that the idea of Sanguinius opening a weak spot in the armour was all that important to the key emotional beats of his confrontation with Horus anyway. It was more a bit of additional speculation/Blood Angels mythology was it not? I'm not sure i really want to see a big fight between Sang and Horus tbh, i think a cold blooded murder by OP Horus on a worn down from the siege Sanguinius after some brief words between the two will have much more impact. I love when a noob comes in and insults one of the best Primarchs ever. /rolleyes Everybody was a noob once, only perhaps treated better by older crowd. I like the idea of a battered,tired, worn down Angel getting utterly curbstomped by Horus. The Angel is The DUDE defending the Gates. He breaks the Chaos waves again and again, cast down the greatest of daemons, knowing the whole time that his fate is sealed at the hands of his beloved traitorous brother. When the haggard Angel faces the Chaos infused Horus, who offers him an escape to the doom that has dogged him so long and relentlessly, knowing that defiance means his death and the cursing of his progeny... and the Angel still says no. That's damn awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5052648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarineRaider Posted April 11, 2018 Author Share Posted April 11, 2018 I never got the impression from the old lore that the idea of Sanguinius opening a weak spot in the armour was all that important to the key emotional beats of his confrontation with Horus anyway. It was more a bit of additional speculation/Blood Angels mythology was it not? I'm not sure i really want to see a big fight between Sang and Horus tbh, i think a cold blooded murder by OP Horus on a worn down from the siege Sanguinius after some brief words between the two will have much more impact. I love when a noob comes in and insults one of the best Primarchs ever. /rolleyes Everybody was a noob once, only perhaps treated better by older crowd. I like the idea of a battered,tired, worn down Angel getting utterly curbstomped by Horus. The Angel is The DUDE defending the Gates. He breaks the Chaos waves again and again, cast down the greatest of daemons, knowing the whole time that his fate is sealed at the hands of his beloved traitorous brother. When the haggard Angel faces the Chaos infused Horus, who offers him an escape to the doom that has dogged him so long and relentlessly, knowing that defiance means his death and the cursing of his progeny... and the Angel still says no. That's damn awesome. Totally agree. Depending on who gets to write that book, my guess is DA , he will still have the Angel going out swinging to the last. I wonder if whoever writes that final book will ditch ADB style of the Big E and we will get his feelings on entering the chamber and seeing the Angel dead. Back to HH49, interesting also the amount of reinforcements arriving to the Throne world daily, even Horus admits it is going to be a struggle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5052667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchu warlord Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Depending on who gets to write that book, my guess is DA DA better be the one to write that book. He started this wonderful series ... I was there... the day Horus slew the Emperor... And he ought to be the one to end it ... I was there... the day the Emperor slew Horus... Yes, anyway, back to HH49 (even though I haven't read it yet). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5052677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 <snip> Everybody was a noob once, only perhaps treated better by older crowd. I like the idea of a battered,tired, worn down Angel getting utterly curbstomped by Horus. The Angel is The DUDE defending the Gates. He breaks the Chaos waves again and again, cast down the greatest of daemons, knowing the whole time that his fate is sealed at the hands of his beloved traitorous brother. When the haggard Angel faces the Chaos infused Horus, who offers him an escape to the doom that has dogged him so long and relentlessly, knowing that defiance means his death and the cursing of his progeny... and the Angel still says no. That's damn awesome. Emphasis added. Everybody here has to start somewhere, and it's not like the 40k setting is an easily accessible single narrative with a map and compass of where to begin...let alone starting to understand the feelings and assumed sentiments of the lifelong fanbase.... ********** More on Sangy vs Horus Hidden Content My mental template for the Sangy v Horus fight is kinda sorta the end fist fight of the original Predator. You have this incredible BAMF who can barely land a blow on the big bad guy and gets absolutely mauled in return, yet keeps his wits about him and never ever ever gives up until the very end. Also, now that I've typed that I have a mental image of Sanguinius being played by Arnold Schwarzenegger. <read the following in your best/worst Ahnold voice: > "Won too see me flex ma weengs?" "Kah-bahnda! Kom heeah! I weel brake yoo!" "Gooo! Gett too da thundah-hok now!" <Horus and Sanguinuis clasp hands, arm-wrestling in the air> "Wott's da madda, Horus? Adminstratum gott yoo pooshing too menny pensils?" Any other gems that would convince someone on the fence to pick up Wolfsbane? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5053004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggtand Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Question to the people who had read the book: Is there any mention of any muster on Terra for the space wolves? In Inferno there is mentioned that 20 - 25.000 marines was scattered on other assignments that didn't take part in the burning of Prospero. Are they gathered on Terra, or is it just what is left of the censure host that take part in the outing against Horus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5053091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 I got my copy of the book out to make sure I wasn't misremembering, and that I hadn't glossed over something. Here's a direct quote from the book, the final paragraphs of chapter 7, where the defences of Terra are being mustered and massive fleets were being prepared for the conflict at Beta Garmon: Astropathic messages radiated out from the Throneworld by the thousand. Broadcast spires made silent by the Rainstorm sang again. So many went uncertainly, flung out to worlds that may not exist anymore. No messages came for Leman Russ as he withdrew his Legion. Forty Thousand Space Wolves left the Solar System, all that were left in all the Imperium. Prospero had been the grave of many. Alaxxes took thousands to the grasp of Morkai's jaws. More had bled into the unforgiving earth of Anaheim, or floated frozen in their battle suits amid the ovoidal wreckage zones of Daverant. The VIth were a diminished force in every way. Even so, they remained potent enough to turn the tide of any battle. Dorn had made no secret that he would prefer that battle to be at Beta-Garmon. The Praetorian's last orders to the Wolf had turned to pleas. All were unanswered. Bypassing the Martian blockade, the fleet of the Rout flew with all engines burning to the edge of the Solar System, and to the jump point there. I think there's a little wiggle room in there, but ultimately this is the last of the Legion that isn't guarding Fenris itself. There's no sizeable contingent remaining at Terra, or anywhere else in Imperial space. At most it's indicating that remnants would be squad size, anything larger would've heeded the call of the Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5053117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggtand Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Thank you very much m_r_parker Now I just want to read about what happens on Anaheim and Daverant If the censure host went from 50.000 after Prospero to 15.000 on Terra (15k plus c. 25k reinforcement makes 40k leaving in Wolfsbane) it must have been epic battles I hope they will feature in future FW black books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/#findComment-5053136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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