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That actually brings up an interesting point: localized superiority.

 

Russ' plan is actually not as crazy as it sounds when you consider the scope of the entire war.

 

The Sons of Horus, as are most Legions and forces, are split up operating in multiple theaters all over the place. Sure, there are main bodies for each group, but they tend to be the plurality of a force rather than the majority (i.e. the largest single contingent of a given force is 25% of the total rather than 51%). So, for that reason, if the purpose of Loken's recon team was to be able to track the Vengeful Spirit until it took a bathroom break (so to speak) so the Space Wolves could then pounce while it was relatively isolated, then it's actually not a terrible idea. An entire* Legion vs the command group of another actually favors the side with the entire* Legion.

 

Even in the microcosm of the battle itself, if such an idea were executed properly, then the SW should outnumber the SoH onboard the Vengeful Spirit itself. The outer void battle would be a lost cause for the SW fleet, but the sheer number of SW being dumped onto their single objective would increase the likelihood of success.

 

It's not a terrible idea in-and-of-itself....but from what has been told of this book so far, it's never explained or positioned that way in the story itself. So, I'll stop there before I give too much credit to BL :)

 

Where things could go wrong was underestimating the size of the command group escorting Horus (he is the "emperor of chaos" at this moment in time, after all), underestimating the size of forces the SW could muster, choosing the wrong time and place of attack, the

, or just the fog and chaos (lowercase "c") of battle.

 

*what's left of it

 

 

Trying to think of real world examples as comparison...

Hidden Content

Battle of Mogadishu, aka Black Hawk Down: even though the 140 American personnel were grossly outnumbered (something like 3000 to 140) in the city of Mogadishu itself, they vastly outnumbered the ~20 or so guards at the meeting they assaulted. So even though in the big picture (Spoiler alert...) they were outnumbered and outgunned, in the localized confines of the compound they attacked, their plan was sure to succeed based on #'s alone, let alone training, equipment, surprise, etc...

 

Operation Just Cause, aka the Invasion of Panama 1989. US Navy SEALS were tasked with disabling means of President Noriega from escaping: a boat and an airfield. Though, again, in the big picture they were vastly outnumbered (noticing a theme here?) they had localized superiority when assaulting those two objectives.

 

NOTE: I'm decent with military history, but not an expert so please correct anything I may be wrong about

 

 

 

TL; DR: Russ taking his Legion and attempting to solo Horus is not as crazy an idea as it might sound

The problem was that it wasn't just the Sons of Horus

 

The Wolves were outnumbered 5-6 to 1 in that battle

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That actually brings up an interesting point: localized superiority.

 

Russ' plan is actually not as crazy as it sounds when you consider the scope of the entire war.

 

The Sons of Horus, as are most Legions and forces, are split up operating in multiple theaters all over the place. Sure, there are main bodies for each group, but they tend to be the plurality of a force rather than the majority (i.e. the largest single contingent of a given force is 25% of the total rather than 51%). So, for that reason, if the purpose of Loken's recon team was to be able to track the Vengeful Spirit until it took a bathroom break (so to speak) so the Space Wolves could then pounce while it was relatively isolated, then it's actually not a terrible idea. An entire* Legion vs the command group of another actually favors the side with the entire* Legion.

 

Even in the microcosm of the battle itself, if such an idea were executed properly, then the SW should outnumber the SoH onboard the Vengeful Spirit itself. The outer void battle would be a lost cause for the SW fleet, but the sheer number of SW being dumped onto their single objective would increase the likelihood of success.

 

It's not a terrible idea in-and-of-itself....but from what has been told of this book so far, it's never explained or positioned that way in the story itself. So, I'll stop there before I give too much credit to BL :smile.:

 

Where things could go wrong was underestimating the size of the command group escorting Horus (he is the "emperor of chaos" at this moment in time, after all), underestimating the size of forces the SW could muster, choosing the wrong time and place of attack, the

, or just the fog and chaos (lowercase "c") of battle.

 

*what's left of it

 

 

Trying to think of real world examples as comparison...

Hidden Content

Battle of Mogadishu, aka Black Hawk Down: even though the 140 American personnel were grossly outnumbered (something like 3000 to 140) in the city of Mogadishu itself, they vastly outnumbered the ~20 or so guards at the meeting they assaulted. So even though in the big picture (Spoiler alert...) they were outnumbered and outgunned, in the localized confines of the compound they attacked, their plan was sure to succeed based on #'s alone, let alone training, equipment, surprise, etc...

 

Operation Just Cause, aka the Invasion of Panama 1989. US Navy SEALS were tasked with disabling means of President Noriega from escaping: a boat and an airfield. Though, again, in the big picture they were vastly outnumbered (noticing a theme here?) they had localized superiority when assaulting those two objectives.

 

NOTE: I'm decent with military history, but not an expert so please correct anything I may be wrong about

 

 

 

TL; DR: Russ taking his Legion and attempting to solo Horus is not as crazy an idea as it might sound

The problem was that it wasn't just the Sons of Horus

 

The Wolves were outnumbered 5-6 to 1 in that battle

 

That is NOT in the book. The book says in fleet numbers it is 2:1 very clearly. It also says the fleet is dispersed around the system but because they are in bed with Chaos they muster up quickly. However, they never mention how many Chaos Marines are in the VS...never. they mention different Legions participating but they never say XXXX of Sons Horus are waiting for the Space Wolves. In fact the SW are growing frustrated as they slay a bunch of human troops being thrown at them. Perhaps Horus was caught focusing on other things, they were also on the station as well.

 

The book plainly says Russ took a gambit plus he used a risky naval maneuver to gain the element of surprise ( as much as one can get with 5 hours notice) He used the markings left by the pathfinders and kept a blocking force to maintain an exit. When you read the book pay careful attention to his final discussion and board game with Malcador...( M & E know exactly what Russ is going to do and M lays the foundation for the attack and exit) I have read the book twice, I still like it a lot! I recommend it.

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Also when you read the last few books leading up to this one...and then this one I came away that in this book Russ forces Horus to act prematurely in finally ordering the advance on Terra. I do not think he was ready but Russ's attack and wounding of him plus the veil of the warp falling is unnerving him. The tenor has changed across all the recent BL HH short stories as well. The board game between Malcador & E, the Imperial Fists book and short stories and now Russ wounding Horus. After a decade the loyalists are mustering and striking back. I love it. 

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@MarineRaider that's another good point. How Russ' attack could have ulitmately goaded Horus into acting a bit sooner.

 

...although that does seem like more of an after-effect than the kind of thing a (wise) general would count on in a battle <dramatic voice> for the Galaxy

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What i don't quite understand from plot points i've read about this so far, is Russ wounding Horus, but then trying to reason with him instead of pressing home the advantage. That seems a really bad moment to have second thoughts about the whole ruthless "executioner" persona and what we see of him when fighting Magnus. I'm guessing Horus just isn't badly hurt enough?.

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What i don't quite understand from plot points i've read about this so far, is Russ wounding Horus, but then trying to reason with him instead of pressing home the advantage. That seems a really bad moment to have second thoughts about the whole ruthless "executioner" persona and what we see of him when fighting Magnus. I'm guessing Horus just isn't badly hurt enough?.

 

 

I didnt get the impression that Russ was trying to reason with Horus, more like Russ was trying to understand what happened with Horus. If Horus was still Horus or tainted beyond redemption

 

Horus tried to convert Russ for like 3 seconds.

 

Then they threw down.

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Russ could not beat Horse.

 

Have you read the novel?

 

Loken told Russ he couldnt defeat Horus

Malcador told Russ he couldnt defeat Horus (without crossing the very same lines Horus had crossed)

Russ knew he couldnt defeat Post-Molech Horus. (pre-Molech Horus, Im open to either defeating the other)

 

Russ brought a very specific weapon to fight Horus for a very specific reason.

 

Forge World rules aside, Post-Molech Horus would wipe the floor with Russ 99 times out of a 100. 

Russ is banking on that 100th time for a very specific reason discussed in the novel.

 

JKC

 

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To be fair, post-Molech Horus (either close to or equal to the Emp) would probably wipe the floor with Russ 9,999 times out of 10,000

 

I personally feel the Wolfsbane arc was really unnecessary and doesn't strengthen the quality of the overall story

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To be fair, post-Molech Horus (either close to or equal to the Emp) would probably wipe the floor with Russ 9,999 times out of 10,000

 

I personally feel the Wolfsbane arc was really unnecessary and doesn't strengthen the quality of the overall story

 

Fully agree.

 

Post Molech Horus is basically an Emperor level threat. Russ was under no delusion in that fight, and after departing Terra actively changed his mission from executing Horus to wounding Horus with his mcguffin.

 

Wolfsbane serves 1 real purpose, as far as I can tell: it removes Russ from Terra and sidelines him from the rest of the Heresy. 

 

Why the BL put and removed so many loyal Primarchs on Terra is beyond me, but whatevs. It's their universe, im just a visitor. 

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To be fair, post-Molech Horus (either close to or equal to the Emp) would probably wipe the floor with Russ 9,999 times out of 10,000

I personally feel the Wolfsbane arc was really unnecessary and doesn't strengthen the quality of the overall story

 

 

Fully agree.

 

Post Molech Horus is basically an Emperor level threat. Russ was under no delusion in that fight, and after departing Terra actively changed his mission from executing Horus to wounding Horus with his mcguffin.

 

Wolfsbane serves 1 real purpose, as far as I can tell: it removes Russ from Terra and sidelines him from the rest of the Heresy. 

 

Why the BL put and removed so many loyal Primarchs on Terra is beyond me, but whatevs. It's their universe, im just a visitor.

Actually that is one of my pet peavs about the HH. Generally it has been good stuff but it does feel at times like BL have painted themselves into a corner by letting an author "run with a cool idea" only to find it has caused problems further down the (time)line.

 

Back in the days of the Collected Visions (where admittedly the whole timeline was almost impossible to follow anyway) there seemed some "easy"excuses for why Primarch XXX wasn't present at Terra (warp shenanigans, or simply too far away to get there, or involved in an intractable conflict).

 

As it is we seem to have Primarchs (and don't get me started on the Knights Errant) simply whizzing to and fro across the galaxy, doing the okey cokey landing on and leaving Terra.

 

The reason I personally don't like that (especially the Knights Errant storyline) is for me it doesn't reflect the difficult/damn near impossible nature of warp flight in the setting. It is supposed to be hard to travel between the stars. It is supposed to be highly dangerous. There are supposed to be time dilations meaning ships disappear for centuries. And yet suddenly in the HH era it is possible to pop up in the exact spot where Horus is expected to be. It actually feels a bit Star Wars.

 

Personal taste I know but I would have preferred it if the whole Age of Darkness actually reflected the fact that the Imperium was blind to what Horus was up to and where he would strike next. That the nature of the warp made it impossible to "track" him and his forces and as such the whole Imperium would be living in fear.

 

Then again in my head cannon there wouldn't be Astropaths in the HH era as only the advent of the Astronomicon enabled the creation of Astropaths (meaning the God Emperor's sacrifice created a means to both navigate ships better and astropathically navigate communications).

 

I am rambling now!

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To be fair, post-Molech Horus (either close to or equal to the Emp) would probably wipe the floor with Russ 9,999 times out of 10,000

I personally feel the Wolfsbane arc was really unnecessary and doesn't strengthen the quality of the overall story

 

Fully agree.

 

Post Molech Horus is basically an Emperor level threat. Russ was under no delusion in that fight, and after departing Terra actively changed his mission from executing Horus to wounding Horus with his mcguffin.

 

Wolfsbane serves 1 real purpose, as far as I can tell: it removes Russ from Terra and sidelines him from the rest of the Heresy. 

 

Why the BL put and removed so many loyal Primarchs on Terra is beyond me, but whatevs. It's their universe, im just a visitor.

Actually that is one of my pet peavs about the HH. Generally it has been good stuff but it does feel at times like BL have painted themselves into a corner by letting an author "run with a cool idea" only to find it has caused problems further down the (time)line.

 

Back in the days of the Collected Visions (where admittedly the whole timeline was almost impossible to follow anyway) there seemed some "easy"excuses for why Primarch XXX wasn't present at Terra (warp shenanigans, or simply too far away to get there, or involved in an intractable conflict).

 

As it is we seem to have Primarchs (and don't get me started on the Knights Errant) simply whizzing to and fro across the galaxy, doing the okey cokey landing on and leaving Terra.

 

The reason I personally don't like that (especially the Knights Errant storyline) is for me it doesn't reflect the difficult/damn near impossible nature of warp flight in the setting. It is supposed to be hard to travel between the stars. It is supposed to be highly dangerous. There are supposed to be time dilations meaning ships disappear for centuries. And yet suddenly in the HH era it is possible to pop up in the exact spot where Horus is expected to be. It actually feels a bit Star Wars.

 

Personal taste I know but I would have preferred it if the whole Age of Darkness actually reflected the fact that the Imperium was blind to what Horus was up to and where he would strike next. That the nature of the warp made it impossible to "track" him and his forces and as such the whole Imperium would be living in fear.

 

Then again in my head cannon there wouldn't be Astropaths in the HH era as only the advent of the Astronomicon enabled the creation of Astropaths (meaning the God Emperor's sacrifice created a means to both navigate ships better and astropathically navigate communications).

 

I am rambling now!

 

 

Back during collected visions GW really wasn't focus on creating a fully coherent storyline. Now that they're more into the story, they're changing things to make a little more sense, even if it resulted in breaking some plot points.

 

 

The story of Wolfsbane isn't just a story of Horus beating Russ in a fight. We know that is what was likely going to happen. Russ has always been the most human of the primarchs. Malcador knows that Russ secretly regrets breaking the Thousand Sons, more embarrassed by being manipulated into destroying a brother legion. 

 

The spear was the better part of the book along with Russ himself, a possible glimpse into the future of the space wolves.

 

Russ felt that he was special to Horus, thinking that since he was the Primarch to disturb his solitude, the connection would be more meaningful.

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@Fang_guard yeah I get that. As I said the timeline in CV made no sense and BL have tried (along with Forgeworld) to make a coherent story. Doesn't change the fact that I don't like some of the choices and in particular the ease with which folks (Primarchs and Knights Errant) just zip all over the Galaxy. FOR ME that is not consistent with the setting.

 

There is also a lot of tooing and froing to Terra.

 

It would have made more sense TO ME for there to be other reasons (as stated above) for why Russ, Guilliman and The Lion were not present at Terra.

 

Anyhow that is an opinion (mine) and irrelevant in the scheme of things as that is not what BL/FW have decided to do.

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Russ could not beat Horse.

 

 

Have you read the novel?

Loken told Russ he couldnt defeat Horus

Malcador told Russ he couldnt defeat Horus (without crossing the very same lines Horus had crossed)

Russ knew he couldnt defeat Post-Molech Horus. (pre-Molech Horus, Im open to either defeating the other)

 

Russ brought a very specific weapon to fight Horus for a very specific reason.

 

Forge World rules aside, Post-Molech Horus would wipe the floor with Russ 99 times out of a 100. 

Russ is banking on that 100th time for a very specific reason discussed in the novel.

 

JKC

I read a detailed synopsis on reddit but I’d never buy this book.

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Russ could not beat Horse.

 

Have you read the novel?

Loken told Russ he couldnt defeat Horus

Malcador told Russ he couldnt defeat Horus (without crossing the very same lines Horus had crossed)

Russ knew he couldnt defeat Post-Molech Horus. (pre-Molech Horus, Im open to either defeating the other)

 

Russ brought a very specific weapon to fight Horus for a very specific reason.

 

Forge World rules aside, Post-Molech Horus would wipe the floor with Russ 99 times out of a 100. 

Russ is banking on that 100th time for a very specific reason discussed in the novel.

 

JKC

I read a detailed synopsis on reddit but I’d never buy this book.

 

 

A detailed synopsis?

 

Hahahahahaha, okay. 

 

Kinda hard to discuss the events of a novel you havent read.

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I got the gist of the story and it did nothing to make me like Russ. I approve of Sanguinius and Dorn calling him out as a hypocrite.

 

The closet Sanguinius comes to disagreeing with Russ, and that is on Russ' idea to engage Horus, not the use of psykers (which the Angel is also employing)
 
'He has grown powerful, my brother,' said the Khan. 
'If Jaghatai cautions you, then you should listen,' said Sanguinius. 'Of all of us, he is most akin to you in mind.'
 
However, he agrees with Russ 2 seconds later when discussing how the Emperor's silence on the Warp and it's denizens havent worked out for the best:
 
'Similar traditions were outlawed by our father on every world,' said Dorn hotly. 
'We have seen where His close-mouthedness on the matter of the warp has got us,' Russ scoffed. 
Sanguinius made a silent gesture of agreement.
 
Then Sanguinius restrains Dorn when Dorn moves to follow a departing Russ:
 
Sanguinius grabbed him by the arm. The charms on his wings rattled as his feathers shifted and settled. 'Let him be. There are many ways to serve our lord in this war,' said Sanguinius. 
 
Malcador stood, sighing at the cracking in his joints. 'Listen to Sanguinius, Dorn. Let Russ tread his own path,' said Malcador. He looked through the door Russ had left by. 'It is different to yours.'
 
Nowhere does the word "hypocrite" leaves the mouth of the Angel.
In fact, when Russ points out to Dorn that the Khan is still employing psykers, Dorn says nothing to the Khan. Dorn only calls Russ a hypocrite when Russ chooses not to follow Dorn's orders.
 
Maybe, just maybe, your synopsis isnt as accurate as you may believe. Try reading the material yourself before forming an opinion.
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But Russ IS the single greatest hypocrite on psyckers, i mean his whole arc with Magnus/psyckers/Nikea is a Russ=hypocrite .

 

Considering what happened the last time Russ was allowed to follow his gut ( Prospero) Dorn/Sanguinius/Jaghatai should have strapped him to a chair and beat some sense into him. 

 

Nothing i have read about Wolfsbane makes me understand Russ wasting the remains of the already wasted space wolf legion, other then he trusted his gut....his same gut that told him to trust Horus over Magnus. 

 

For me wolfsbane should have been about the wolves actually achieving something in the HH, something positive for their side. Something that makes it so its not just one mistake/defeat after another from prospero to the scouring.  

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I think that a lot of people rushing to call Russ a hypocrite over Nikaea need to revisit Prospero Burns. Russ wanted Magnus censured because the Thousand Sons seemed to be employing powers that could twist an Astartes into a monster. Also they seemed to have placed a psychic spy among the Wolves, and at Nikaea they met with what appeared to be shenanigans byba senior officer of the Thousand Sons.

 

In that book, Russ outright talks about moderation when it comes to the Warp. I think there's also the possibility that when he talks about Magnus using impure powers he's singling him out rather than saying that all psykers apart from his are bad. With all this subsequent stuff about the soul of Fenris, there may be some truth to the former bit.

 

The one who actually tries to bring down the entire structure of the Librarius is Mortarion. His beef is with all psykers, merely seeing Magnus as the worst of them.

 

Finally, Prospero was not his gut. Prospero was the Emperor telling him to capture and then the infallible Warmaster telling him to slay a Primarch who had a ) seemingly allowed use of the Warp to the extreme extent of his sons becoming corrupted b) apparently had a spy placed among the Wolves and c) had his equerry, as far as anyone could tell, attack Wolves and Custodians while the Council was ongoing. Russ then tried to communicate with Magnus, getting no reply, and only then did he follow through with trying to annihilate the Legion.

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I think that a lot of people rushing to call Russ a hypocrite over Nikaea need to revisit Prospero Burns. 

 

Sure, the book where russ gets manipulated by chaos in the form of the spy, is present at Nikea then immediately refuses to follow the actual edict making him just as guilty as magnus but justifies with 'the planet made us do it so its cool',  gets manipulated by Horus, then arrives at Prospero to find 0 resistance,  but goes full bull in a china shop anyhow? 

 

You sure you want us to go back to the book CALLED Prospero Burns? Where the illegal space wolf psyckers go to punish the illegal 1k sons psyckers because THEY broke the rules?

 

Russ is a good meaning and loyal son, this is beyond question. But even he admits in latter works that he dropped the ball with Prospero so hard its still messing with the Imperium 10k years latter.

 

If anything this all ties into Wolfsbane, as Russ guilt and need to repent are the only things that go part way to explain his course of actions.   

 

As to the librarians i still think they messed up when they retconned Nikea to have the librarius shut down. Such a pointless messy retcon, which is what made Leman into such a hypocrite on the whole psycker issue. 

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I think that a lot of people rushing to call Russ a hypocrite over Nikaea need to revisit Prospero Burns. 

 

Sure, the book where russ gets manipulated by chaos in the form of the spy, is present at Nikea then immediately refuses to follow the actual edict making him just as guilty as magnus but justifies with 'the planet made us do it so its cool',  gets manipulated by Horus, then arrives at Prospero to find 0 resistance,  but goes full bull in a china shop anyhow? 

 

You sure you want us to go back to the book CALLED Prospero Burns? Where the illegal space wolf psyckers go to punish the illegal 1k sons psyckers because THEY broke the rules?

 

Russ is a good meaning and loyal son, this is beyond question. But even he admits in latter works that he dropped the ball with Prospero so hard its still messing with the Imperium 10k years latter.

 

If anything this all ties into Wolfsbane, as Russ guilt and need to repent are the only things that go part way to explain his course of actions.   

 

As to the librarians i still think they messed up when they retconned Nikea to have the librarius shut down. Such a pointless messy retcon, which is what made Leman into such a hypocrite on the whole psycker issue. 

 

Well, Russ does admit that he and the legion need to rethink their connection to the warp. Also Malcador said that Russ was given exceptions to the rules when it came to things like that. Russ does admit that he is a bit of a hypocrite, but he also has his reasons on why.

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Russ' time on fenris was basically one of the greatest highlights of the book.

 

The awakening of the speak and of himself was one of the greatest moments. I wondered if Russ' true name is Odin.

This truth drove Russ away from fenris.

The time with the Erlking was....revolutionary. Basically it makes me wonder what will Russ be able to do when he comes back
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I think that a lot of people rushing to call Russ a hypocrite over Nikaea need to revisit Prospero Burns. Russ wanted Magnus censured because the Thousand Sons seemed to be employing powers that could twist an Astartes into a monster. Also they seemed to have placed a psychic spy among the Wolves, and at Nikaea they met with what appeared to be shenanigans byba senior officer of the Thousand Sons.

 

In that book, Russ outright talks about moderation when it comes to the Warp. I think there's also the possibility that when he talks about Magnus using impure powers he's singling him out rather than saying that all psykers apart from his are bad. With all this subsequent stuff about the soul of Fenris, there may be some truth to the former bit.

 

The one who actually tries to bring down the entire structure of the Librarius is Mortarion. His beef is with all psykers, merely seeing Magnus as the worst of them.

 

Finally, Prospero was not his gut. Prospero was the Emperor telling him to capture and then the infallible Warmaster telling him to slay a Primarch who had a ) seemingly allowed use of the Warp to the extreme extent of his sons becoming corrupted :cool.: apparently had a spy placed among the Wolves and c) had his equerry, as far as anyone could tell, attack Wolves and Custodians while the Council was ongoing. Russ then tried to communicate with Magnus, getting no reply, and only then did he follow through with trying to annihilate the Legion.

 

People don't call Russ a hypocrite for going after Magnus at Nikaea, they call him a hypocrite for his actions on Prospero. The Emperor gave a blanket ban on psykers, but Russ kept using them because "ours are pure", ignoring that it's the same logic that Magnus himself uses. Sure, Russ believed in moderation for psykers, but it doesn't change the fact that he kept using them himself, because reasons. Sure, he was commanded to go by the Emperor, but he still agreed with the course as the consequence of breaking the Edict, something he himself is doing.

 

And all this because the Collected Visions decided to ruin the previous version, where "sorcery" was banned, but the Librarian Program accepted as a safe method of training psykers, of which the Rune Priests were included in, to being the Emperor, the most powerful psyker in the galaxy, saying "nu-uh, psykers are bad and should be not trained whatsoever, despite the fact that the Black Ships exist to remove the danger of untrained psykers and put them to good use. I am a smart genius."

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