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Wolfsbane HH49

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Marshal Loss Honoured Frater

Marshal Loss

Posted
Posted
  On 5/17/2018 at 4:26 PM, Black Orange said:

Wow that is amazing he spared him - what a huge mistake... might be why he eventually went off on his lonesome.

 

Nope. That is because

 

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  On 5/17/2018 at 5:53 PM, m_r_parker said:

I don't understand why everyone has a problem with Russ not actually wanting to kill Horus. 

 

Technically he and his Legion are the Emperor's sanction within the Astartes, but nobody actually gave him orders to go and take on the Warmaster mano-a-mano. More to the point, everyone tells him he can't. 

I wouldn't say that Russ bested Horus, he stuck a well time blow that caused some damage to him. The equivalent of knocking off a wound in a game of 30k. The physical damage has already recovered before the end of the novel, those effects weren't that long lasting or impactful to the fight himself. If it weren't for the special powers of the spear itself I'm sure Horus would have shrugged off the impact of that attack as nothing and carried on. This is really the only impactful wound that Russ was able to land on the Warmaster, but Horus carved a great chunk of damage to Russ to the point that the rest of the Rout had to intervene to stop him getting killed and carry an unconscious Russ away from the fight. I'd hardly say that Russ was anywhere winning that fight.

 

Because the entire novel (not to mention the leadup) is built around the premise that Russ cannot beat Horus. It simply cannot be done. This is repeated to him over and over, by everybody from the Primarchs to Malcador, and he remarks upon it himself the moment he sees him. Yet after a brief duel, a little hubris from the Warmaster gives Russ all the chance he needs to kill Horus. And Russ, the Executioner, does not take it. Sure, he couldn't have done it without the spear, but that doesn't cheapen the achievement.

 

And saying that Russ was not anywhere near winning that fight is simply not true. He could have ended Horus right then and there; Horus admits as much, and Russ says as much.

 

At the end of the day, I thought the conversation between the two of them while Horus is playing the role of a golden kebab is possibly the best part of the book. But I don't think Russ should actually have been in a position to kill him. This same Russ says earlier in the book that he's still proud of beating Magnus; Horus and Russ were never close, so I'm not sure I'm really convinced by the hesitation. It's very poetic, brother meets brother and all that, but even the passage afterwards seems a little odd, contextually:

 

 

 

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Russ shook his head, barely awake. ‘Not with the traitor. Not with him. I spoke…’ He took a shuddering, rattling breath. Before he slipped away he whispered, ‘I spoke with my brother.’

 

...I mean, he spoke with Horus without his powers, and Horus was still determined to do what he was doing. That he was doing what must be done. This statement doesn't quite ring true, and speaks to the problems with the way their duel was constructed.

Fedor Battle-Brother

Fedor

Posted
Posted

Yeah, the Spear arc would have worked just as well with Horus still fighting and defending himself from Russ while we get the info he still feels he's doing the right thing usurping the emperor.

 

Maybe they are building up to another retcon where he tries to confide in a rampaging, grief filled scouring-era Dorn he had the chance to kill Horus...and gets slaughtered right then and there for it.:biggrin.:

BLACK BLΠFLY

BLACK BLΠFLY

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I have been playing for over 20 years - never liked Russ. This is the ONE time he could have redeemed himself in my eyes but he blows it. To me he has always been a feth-off if you know what I mean.

 

@ Major Loss - you can try to downplay it all you want but at the end of the day he pulled another Russ .

Marshal Loss Honoured Frater

Marshal Loss

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  On 5/17/2018 at 11:23 PM, Black Orange said:

I have been playing for over 20 years - never liked Russ. This is the ONE time he could have redeemed himself in my eyes but he blows it. To me he has always been a feth-off if you know what I mean.

 

@ Major Loss - you can try to downplay it all you want but at the end of the day he pulled another Russ .

 

Downplay...what? Major? How am I downplaying anything, Mr hasn't read the book?

Guest Triszin

Guest Triszin

Posted
Posted

so just finished that chapter

 

the spear

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Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Honoured Frater

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

Posted
Posted

Triszin: I know right?! 

 

It's almost like reading the book yourself can reveal stuff not discussed in forums.

 

Though I would say the original owner of the spear is Woden, especially when you compare the trials Russ endured to certain Norse myths.

Lord_Caerolion Honoured Frater

Lord_Caerolion

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  On 5/17/2018 at 11:34 PM, Triszin said:

so just finished that chapter

 

the spear

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@Black Orange

 

What exactly did our good Marshal downplay? I literally have no idea what you're talking about in that post.

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Honoured Frater

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

Posted
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  On 5/18/2018 at 12:08 AM, Black Orange said:

There’s no way I would spend my money to buy this novel or use my time t read it but I’ve as much right as anyone else to discuss it here. Saying it’s no big deal that Russ did not kill Horus when he had the chance is well just crazy.

 

Didnt say it or even imply that Russ not killing Horus when he had the chance isnt crazy or try and deny anybody the right to discuss a novel.

 

All I did say is that reading the book will actually give better view of a novel than various posts of a forum alone.

 

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Lord_Caerolion Honoured Frater

Lord_Caerolion

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...That's not what Marshall Loss said though, Black Orange? Fair enough to not have read the book but still discuss it, I haven't read it either, but your bias against Russ is really showing if you're reading a post stating that it makes no sense that Russ didn't kill Horus, as saying that people are agreeing that it's no big deal.

 

There's a difference between commenting on a book you haven't read, and coming in and disregarding everything that's actually being discussed and happening to just say "well I think Russ is stupid".

b1soul Honoured Frater

b1soul

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Posted

@ nagashnee

 

"First, the fact that Russ beat Horus, full deamon i am now ascended, chaos is king horus head on"

 

Russ stabs Horus in the stomach with his special spear...this weakens Chaos' grip on Horus and causes Horus to doubt his path for a moment.

 

I didn't read anything about Russ simply besting Horus.

 

I do think the idea of Russ deciding to spare Horus does nothing to expand or deepen Russ' character. It's really stupid and only undermines his character IMO

Marshal Loss Honoured Frater

Marshal Loss

Posted
Posted
  On 5/18/2018 at 12:08 AM, Black Orange said:

There’s no way I would spend my money to buy this novel or use my time t read it but I’ve as much right as anyone else to discuss it here. Saying it’s no big deal that Russ did not kill Horus when he had the chance is well just crazy.

 

I never said that it was 'no big deal' that Russ did not kill Horus when he had the chance. I literally said the opposite.

 

 

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But I don't think Russ should actually have been in a position to kill him.

 

Accusing somebody of downplaying something is rather rich when you 1) have not read the book, and 2) you haven't even read their post properly.

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 12:22 AM, Black Orange said:

That was directed at Loss in regards to Russ

 

Pray, point out where I said such a thing

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Honoured Frater

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

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  On 5/18/2018 at 12:22 AM, b1soul said:

@ nagashnee

 

"First, the fact that Russ beat Horus, full deamon i am now ascended, chaos is king horus head on"

 

Russ stabs Horus in the stomach with his special spear...this weakens Chaos' grip on Horus and causes Horus to doubt his path for a moment.

 

I didn't read anything about Russ simply besting Horus.

 

I do think the idea of Russ deciding to spare Horus does nothing to expand or deepen Russ' character. It's really stupid and only undermines his character IMO

 

Agreed on both.

 

I will say as a person with a large family and sometimes dysfunctional family, I do understand how a moment of doubt can creep us like it did on Russ. 

 

I have to remember the Primarchs are a special type of family. They are all that there are or ever will be. There wont be any more and Russ was somehow involved in removing atleast one of them. 

Russ, who can be the most human of the Primarchs (or atleast show it) loves Horus in a way I doubt he loved his brothers. Horus was the first he met, first he put himself against. It was also the first time Russ learned he truly wasnt ALONE. He wasnt some god amongst mortals, but one of a brotherhood. An equal to measure himself against. It was a special bond that clearly impacted Russ and how he developed himself and his legion.

 

To have some doubt, a possible chance at salvation, cause Russ to stay his attacks even momentarily isnt just human, to me it's entirely understandable.

Guest Triszin

Guest Triszin

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  On 5/18/2018 at 12:16 AM, Jarl Kjaran Coldheart said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 12:08 AM, Black Orange said:

There’s no way I would spend my money to buy this novel or use my time t read it but I’ve as much right as anyone else to discuss it here. Saying it’s no big deal that Russ did not kill Horus when he had the chance is well just crazy.

 

Didnt say it or even imply that Russ not killing Horus when he had the chance isnt crazy or try and deny anybody the right to discuss a novel.

 

All I did say is that reading the book will actually give better view of a novel than various posts of a forum alone.

 

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on that

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found my old post

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I might rewrite it with the new lore from wolfsbane

Marshal Loss Honoured Frater

Marshal Loss

Posted
Posted

Complex relationships, motivations and choices would be good if they were done well. The end result is, to me, rather jarring given the premise of the novel. I don't think the prologue provides anywhere near enough context on the relationship between the two Primarchs to justify Russ' indecision.

 

If this was conveyed in the book:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 12:28 AM, Jarl Kjaran Coldheart said:

 

Russ, who can be the most human of the Primarchs (or atleast show it) loves Horus in a way I doubt he loved his brothers. Horus was the first he met, first he put himself against. It was also the first time Russ learned he truly wasnt ALONE. He wasnt some god amongst mortals, but one of a brotherhood. An equal to measure himself against. It was a special bond that clearly impacted Russ and how he developed himself and his legion.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it wasn't. It is far more of a story of wyrd, of fate, than it is of Russ struggling to make a decision as to what he's going to do with Horus.

 

To me, the book does a brilliant job of covering Russ, but a terrible job of factoring in Horus to the equation, if that makes sense. It's like the whole goal of killing Horus is just tacked on to a pre-existing arc.

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Honoured Frater

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

Posted
Posted
  On 5/18/2018 at 1:39 AM, mc warhammer said:

i'm in the minority, but it sounds interesting to me. if a "soft" russ means we get complex relationships, motivations and choices then i'll take soft.

 

To me the fight was among the weaker points of the novel.

 

The brief discussion among the Primarchs, Malcador's insights to Russ, and Russ' return to Fenris were all worth the admission alone.

 

@Triszin: That would be pretty awesome, excellent what if!

 

@Marshal Loss: I take Wolfsbane to be a chapter of a larger story, starting in Prospero Burns, continuing in the Wolf King and concluding in Weregeld.

 

On it's own it brings problems to the party, but when arced together it stands pretty tall. 

Marshal Loss Honoured Frater

Marshal Loss

Posted
Posted
  On 5/18/2018 at 1:44 AM, Jarl Kjaran Coldheart said:

@Marshal Loss: I take Wolfsbane to be a chapter of a larger story, starting in Prospero Burns, continuing in the Wolf King and concluding in Weregeld.

 

On it's own it brings problems to the party, but when arced together it stands pretty tall. 

 

 

Not disputing that, but:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 1:42 AM, Marshal Loss said:
To me, the book does a brilliant job of covering Russ, but a terrible job of factoring in Horus to the equation, if that makes sense. It's like the whole goal of killing Horus is just tacked on to a pre-existing arc.

 

For a book named 'Wolfsbane,' featuring Lupercal and the Wolf King facing up against each other, the first two discovered, two of the best fighters/commanders/most prominent Primarchs, I think the 'wolf versus wolf' angle, and their relationship, was not given near enough focus.

 

I would have liked to see more flashbacks appearing throughout the novel, in a similar fashion to how John French inserted the Dorn and Alpharius flashbacks to flesh out their relationship prior to the conclusion of Praetorian of Dorn. Now that is how you should handle something like this.

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Honoured Frater

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

Posted
Posted
  On 5/18/2018 at 1:49 AM, Marshal Loss said:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 1:44 AM, Jarl Kjaran Coldheart said:

@Marshal Loss: I take Wolfsbane to be a chapter of a larger story, starting in Prospero Burns, continuing in the Wolf King and concluding in Weregeld.

 

On it's own it brings problems to the party, but when arced together it stands pretty tall. 

 

 

Not disputing that, but:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 1:42 AM, Marshal Loss said:
To me, the book does a brilliant job of covering Russ, but a terrible job of factoring in Horus to the equation, if that makes sense. It's like the whole goal of killing Horus is just tacked on to a pre-existing arc.

 

For a book named 'Wolfsbane,' featuring Lupercal and the Wolf King facing up against each other, the first two discovered, two of the best fighters/commanders/most prominent Primarchs, I think the 'wolf versus wolf' angle, and their relationship, was not given near enough focus.

 

 

Isnt this the samer series with a book called Prospero Burns (but not until the last chapter or so)?

 

I do agree that there should have been more about just them, but if my wishes were novels (or atleast chapters) then the HH series would never end

Marshal Loss Honoured Frater

Marshal Loss

Posted
Posted

Unfortunately I keep editing posts while you're typing. In the spirit of being constructive, I think this would have been a good idea:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 1:49 AM, Marshal Loss said:

 

I would have liked to see more flashbacks appearing throughout the novel, in a similar fashion to how John French inserted the Dorn and Alpharius flashbacks to flesh out their relationship prior to the conclusion of Praetorian of Dorn. Now that is how you should handle something like this

 

Point taken though: a large part of this is undoubtedly my own desire to see their relationship fleshed out, which was what I was looking forward too. Oh well!

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Honoured Frater

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

Posted
Posted
  On 5/18/2018 at 1:55 AM, Marshal Loss said:

Unfortunately I keep editing posts while you're typing. In the spirit of being constructive, I think this would have been a good idea:

 

  On 5/18/2018 at 1:49 AM, Marshal Loss said:

 

I would have liked to see more flashbacks appearing throughout the novel, in a similar fashion to how John French inserted the Dorn and Alpharius flashbacks to flesh out their relationship prior to the conclusion of Praetorian of Dorn. Now that is how you should handle something like this

 

Point taken though: a large part of this is undoubtedly my own desire to see their relationship fleshed out, which was what I was looking forward too. Oh well!

 

i'd pay good money to just see the Primarchs hang out and play chess or something. Just to see how the Primarchs interact with each other, the clash of personalities, a brotherhood being forged...only to later crush it all. 

 

I've never been too fond of Guy Haley's writing. He certainly isnt equal to French (yet)

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