Wolfsbane HH49

[Scribe]

So that spoiler really interested me. Are the spear sections essentially Word of God? Is there room for Russ to be wrong about his revelation?

[mc warhammer]

Complex relationships, motivations and choices would be good if they were done well. The end result is, to me, rather jarring given the premise of the novel. I don't think the prologue provides anywhere near enough context on the relationship between the two Primarchs to justify Russ' indecision.

 

If this was conveyed in the book:

 

 

Russ, who can be the most human of the Primarchs (or atleast show it) loves Horus in a way I doubt he loved his brothers. Horus was the first he met, first he put himself against. It was also the first time Russ learned he truly wasnt ALONE. He wasnt some god amongst mortals, but one of a brotherhood. An equal to measure himself against. It was a special bond that clearly impacted Russ and how he developed himself and his legion.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it wasn't. It is far more of a story of wyrd, of fate, than it is of Russ struggling to make a decision as to what he's going to do with Horus.

 

To me, the book does a brilliant job of covering Russ, but a terrible job of factoring in Horus to the equation, if that makes sense. It's like the whole goal of killing Horus is just tacked on to a pre-existing arc.

 

 

well, yeah...i did write "if". i'm still optimistic

 

for my money, i haven't read a particularly good set up of primarch love/bonds yet. i've been filling in the gaps myself since day one, so i'm used to it

[Triszin]

So that spoiler really interested me. Are the spear sections essentially Word of God? Is there room for Russ to be wrong about his revelation?

I just got to the end of a chapter, and will read more tomorrow

 

i'll talk more tomorrow

[Scribe]

If its essentially confirming what many of us had speculated on previously, thats quite a revelation.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Maybe I will read it now.

[nagashnee]

If its essentially confirming what many of us had speculated on previously, thats quite a revelation.

Its not, its specifically written in the vague manner which may or may not confirm anything but can be used to  mean anything further down the road.  

 

It is very likely confirming community theories ( several in fact) but could be used in a future book just as likely to prove just about anything else. 

 

Not that i begrudge them that, i am a firm believer that some questions should not be answered. 

 

@ nagashnee

 

"First, the fact that Russ beat Horus, full deamon i am now ascended, chaos is king horus head on"

 

Russ stabs Horus in the stomach with his special spear...this weakens Chaos' grip on Horus and causes Horus to doubt his path for a moment.

 

I didn't read anything about Russ simply besting Horus.

 

Two combatants meet in battle, one using his skills proves his superiority and is able to at will land a killing blow. That is the definition of besting. The fact that Leman drops the ball doesnt change that.

 

They each had 1 goal, the novel states it allot, kill or be killed, one of them got there first, he bested his opponent.  Skill, trickery, magic, plot armor, it doesnt matter how, the fact is he did it. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

Wow. I was expecting bad things from this book, but that Russ-Horus duel is possibly the worst piece of Heresy fluff I've yet come across. Sure I knew Russ wouldn't win, and end up in a coma, that's fine (if frustrating). Losing to super Chaos-buffed Horus? Fair enough, no shame in losing when you're trying to punch above your weight class. But to win, and then fail because of hesitation is just a low move by the author. Russ's entire character and arc in the HH has been built around duty and the 'executioner' persona. Yet this seems to just throw that out to further humiliate Russ and the Wolves. So it's now Russ's fault that the Heresy continued, and both the Titandeath and Siege of Terra happened in the first place? Really?

 

I can remember when I read the First Heretic, and Lorgar only survives because Corax hesitated, giving Curze enough time to intervene. I thought that was really cool, and fitted really well with Corax's character as one of the 'nice Primarchs. Yet at the same time thinking 'Lorgar was lucky it was Corax, one of the more ruthless Primarchs like Ferrus, Khan or Russ, wouldn't have hesitated'. Having Russ hesitate, especially after what he did to Magnus, while fighting the guy who both personally deceived and manipulated him, and plunged the entire Imperium into the apocalypse, just doesn't fit with how Russ has been portrayed (to the best of my knowledge, at any rate).

 

As an aside from this. My biggest overall concern with the ongoing VI Legion arc is that the constant massacres they suffer will completely undermine their supposed role as the cavalry (alongside the DAs) at the Siege. Does this book present the Wolves as still a potential threat after the SoH are done spitting them out, or just another Shattered Legion which should be combat irrelevant from that point?

[DarkChaplain]

Man, this circlejerk is really quite something, especially as spearheaded by people who haven't read the novel...

[nagashnee]

Man, this circlejerk is really quite something, especially as spearheaded by people who haven't read the novel...

Then maybe you should stop jerking them? Or not, to each their own, i dont judge.

 

Tho i HAVE read the novel . 

 

 

 

As an aside from this. My biggest overall concern with the ongoing VI Legion arc is that the constant massacres they suffer will completely undermine their supposed role as the cavalry (alongside the DAs) at the Siege. Does this book present the Wolves as still a potential threat after the SoH are done spitting them out, or just another Shattered Legion which should be combat irrelevant from that point?

 

After this and Yarant (sp?) i would not call them a legion.  Which is nothing to their fleet issues, corpse ships is what they are left with, and the book states most of their ships were not in a good condition even before this. 

 

[TheRealMcCagh]

They aren't quite a shattered legion, but by all rights they should be.

It seems like the die by the thousands for the entire battle, of the entire contingent that goes with Russ only like 3 survive. It's kind of a surprise at the end that their are any left on the ship, because every place you get a POV has the Wolves getting completely wiped out. Horus himself kills hundreds of the Russ' personal guard just trying to get to the injured Russ. But towards the end whats left of the leadership is meeting and deciding what to do. They can either A) split up and save whats left of the legion, but be too insignificant to do anything else for the war (IH style post Old Earth), or B) consolidate what is left and make a last stand somewhere. This would effectively be a death sentence for the legion, but it allows them to stay a viable threat necessitating the Warmasters attention. They opt for B and pick Yarant because it's location will force Horus to deal with them or risk having an enemy at his back when he moves to Beta-Garmon. They all sort of acknowledge this the only way they can be a factor in whats left of the war.

 

I would certainly recommend reading the novel before forming strong opinions about it. There is a lot of context missing from some of these posts.

[Triszin]

They aren't quite a shattered legion, but by all rights they should be.

It seems like the die by the thousands for the entire battle, of the entire contingent that goes with Russ only like 3 survive. It's kind of a surprise at the end that their are any left on the ship, because every place you get a POV has the Wolves getting completely wiped out. Horus himself kills hundreds of the Russ' personal guard just trying to get to the injured Russ. But towards the end whats left of the leadership is meeting and deciding what to do. They can either A) split up and save whats left of the legion, but be too insignificant to do anything else for the war (IH style post Old Earth), or consolidate what is left and make a last stand somewhere. This would effectively be a death sentence for the legion, but it allows them to stay a viable threat necessitating the Warmasters attention. They opt for B and pick Yarant because it's location will force Horus to deal with them or risk having an enemy at his back when he moves to Beta-Garmon. They all sort of acknowledge this the only way they can be a factor in whats left of the war.

 

I would certainly recommend reading the novel before forming strong opinions about it. There is a lot of context missing from some of these posts.

on the boarding action

was well written imho.

and onsaulght of CQC ship battles launching all boarding options while bombarding the ship, some of the routes transports getting taken out from friendly fire, others the shields, others still horus's ships anti boarding systems.

 

I kinda of imagined that scene from enders game, where they just overwhelm the systems defenses through casualities and ships.

 

How they boarded horus's flag ship and as many ships around it as possible. attempting to scuttle or force ships to worry about themselves.

 

The terminator first wave disembark I imagine it was just a wall of plasma and shells hitting them, killy them but allowing the ships defences and fireteams to take out the anti boarding interior batteries.

 

On Russ and Horus fight

Horus had the upper hand for the entirety of the fight. The only moment russ saw he could hit horus, was when horus essentially had russ in a death grip.

Horus talon's were shredding and embedded into Russ's armor, and russ decided to spin into the claw as Horus raised his maul to kill russ.

in doing so, horus's talon's sheered off a pauldren, and lacerated russ's arm, but then it allowed russ to stab the spear at a side plate.

 

When the spear hit russ, it is as described as turning into light, vibrating and shaking everything, tiring russ to use it and to force it deeper through the armor to hit horus. The light spear, basically caused an "Awe" moment, when all of the legionairs were stunned at what just happened.

Upon making contact with Horus flesh, horus personae calmed down, but never shifted.

 

Russ wanted to know he was talking to lupercal, and horus said he was, he always was. that this was the only way horus saw for humantiy to live. Russ asked once for horus to come back to terra, to call a cease fire, and the calm broke.

Horus then poroceded to beat the living hell out of russ.

 

- it appears that the spears affects only lasted briefly, maybe 3-5 seconds*

- it is important to note, the Lupercal did try to get RUss to join him and chaos, and it seemed as though both Horus and russ didn't really want to kill each other, they were brothers first, and longest of all the primarchs, so they both failed.

- horus set the trap to allow the wolves in, to kill as many as possible

- russ knew the trap was set, and used it to use the spear on horus

 

Space wolves threw themselves at horus, and used their bodies as sheilds as russ was dragged away by his jarls and wolf guard.

after this fight

 

- most of the legion is reduced to 1/5 its size, they mentioned they had 30-40k wolves? at the start, so lets say they have 7k left after this after this assault on the fleet. meaning, Yarant will only be a few thousand wolves

 

on the spear

It seems to have a piece of the emperors soul embedded within the spear. I think, it might share knowledge from the emperor to those are peirced with it.

- what the emperor inteded for his children

- horus after the fight, felt distraught for a moment, and saw a differnet future in which lupercal was fighting endless waves of deamons and holding ground for humanity, before shaking the feeling, and orders the fleet ready itself for beta garman.

- What the emperor made his children from

- Russ felt disgusted when realized, what he and his brothers were, and distraughtly asked why the emperor would make such things( it isn't stated what exactly they are)

- false russ, said that he doesnt think it was a mistake that the primarchs were scatered, that it may have been part of the emperors plan. (its not a coincidence you land on fenris, that fenrisians have the same genotype you have)

- it may impart knowledge that the emperor has, such as tech, magics, realities

- but the "truth" is different for each person stabbed, and may be different based on the wielders of the weapons.

- Russ was stabbed by false russ, and was shown what the primarchs are

- Russ stabbed horus, and wanted him to remember who he was, and horus was who he was already, but was shown a vision of who he couldve been

 

On fenris, the planet

The emperor knew of fenris by the way he spoke of it on discovery

 

" an expirement of old, before the long night. based on..... ideas"

myth given form

a place that makes monsters that make the rest of the universe look tame.

Fenris might of been an expirement by the emperor many thousands of year ago

[TheRealMcCagh]

I also thought it was interesting what Haley made of Fenris

 

Both that the Emperor claimed Fenris was originally a DAoT 'Jurassic Park,' and that the Space Wolves kept it crap conditions despite being able to change it. It's similar to what Haley said in Devestation of Baal, that death world recruitment is by design and the population would probably be pretty pissed if they found out the governing chapters/legions withheld all this technology in the interest of pre-screening recruits.I guess it isn't too shocking of a revelation, but the idea that the Imperium could easily 'fix' Fenris and Baal but choose not to is a stark reminder of the draconian nature of the IoM.

[Triszin]

I also thought it was interesting what Haley made of Fenris

 

Both that the Emperor claimed Fenris was originally a DAoT 'Jurassic Park,' and that the Space Wolves kept it crap conditions despite being able to change it. It's similar to what Haley said in Devestation of Baal, that death world recruitment is by design and the population would probably be pretty pissed if they found out the governing chapters/legions withheld all this technology in the interest of pre-screening recruits.I guess it isn't too shocking of a revelation, but the idea that the Imperium could easily 'fix' Fenris and Baal but choose not to is a stark reminder of the draconian nature of the IoM.

yep, I like to think that Fenris might of been an expirment for the emperor to see if he can create societies based on myths of ancient earth

[DarkChaplain]

I mean, they "fixed" Caliban around the same time, industrializing it while removing the forests. They also terraformed Ullanor after the campaign for the triumph, where they moved mountains. The Imperium's had the capabilities for this stuff for ages. Heck, Terra herself was being restored until the Heresy broke out and priorities changed.

[TheRealMcCagh]

I just like the idea of a middle school field trip going to Fenris in the DAoT. 'Alright children, put on your Terminator armor, we're going to go see the spooky Kraken next.' It would be like if Jurassic Park employees got cut off from the world and said 'well :cuss, guess we'll just start a new civilization here. Back to the bronze age for us...'

[Marshal Loss]

 

most of the legion is reduced to 1/5 its size, they mentioned they had 30-40k wolves? at the start, so lets say they have 7k left after this after this assault on the fleet. meaning, Yarant will only be a few thousand wolves

 

That is not quite accurate. Only two company commanders state that they were down to 1/5 strength; we don't have figures for the rest of the Legion so we're not in a position to make an accurate guess. The casualties were indisputably massive though, obviously.

 

it is important to note, the Lupercal did try to get RUss to join him and chaos, and it seemed as though both Horus and russ didn't really want to kill each other, they were brothers first, and longest of all the primarchs, so they both failed.

 

Russ did hesitate when he should have killed Horus, but Horus was in no way "not wanting to kill his brother". He didn't hold back. The generic "join me or die" offer doesn't mean he didn't want to kill him.

[Karthak]

 

 

most of the legion is reduced to 1/5 its size, they mentioned they had 30-40k wolves? at the start, so lets say they have 7k left after this after this assault on the fleet. meaning, Yarant will only be a few thousand wolves

 

That is not quite accurate. Only two company commanders state that they were down to 1/5 strength; we don't have figures for the rest of the Legion so we're not in a position to make an accurate guess. The casualties were indisputably massive though, obviously.

 

Blergh. The Wolves really haven't had a good performance history in the Heresy. Tricked into destroying a loyal Legion at Prospero (and they had to be bailed out by the Custodes and Sisters of Silence). Smashed by the Alpha Legion at Alaxxes, and had to be bailed out by the Dark Angels, of all people. Absolutely crushed by the Sons of Horus at Yarant, and had to be bailed out by the Raven Guard. 

[Scribe]

Considering the point of the betrayal/change of orders was to 'destroy' both the wolves and the sons, I'm surprised it took this many losses to break them.

 

Like these Shattered legions, getting book after book, after book...

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

 

most of the legion is reduced to 1/5 its size, they mentioned they had 30-40k wolves? at the start, so lets say they have 7k left after this after this assault on the fleet. meaning, Yarant will only be a few thousand wolves

 

That is not quite accurate. Only two company commanders state that they were down to 1/5 strength; we don't have figures for the rest of the Legion so we're not in a position to make an accurate guess. The casualties were indisputably massive though, obviously.

 

Blergh. The Wolves really haven't had a good performance history in the Heresy. Tricked into destroying a loyal Legion at Prospero (and they had to be bailed out by the Custodes and Sisters of Silence). Smashed by the Alpha Legion at Alaxxes, and had to be bailed out by the Dark Angels, of all people. Absolutely crushed by the Sons of Horus at Yarant, and had to be bailed out by the Raven Guard. 

 

 

If it's any consolation, and it may not be, the Space Wolves are incredible badasses in this novel. They steamroll their way through the Sons of Horus to get to Horus himself, and their assault is heavily outnumbered from the beginning (+Horus gets reinforcements impossibly fast due to warp trickery, which is a big part of why they suffer so much on the retreat). That being said, they kick some serious ass. I'd still recommend picking it up. I do think Haley did the Legion justice, but others may disagree.

[TheRealMcCagh]

We are told after that Horus allowed them to push that far in, so as to over expose themselves. During the retreat they face much fiercer opposition trying to isolate the packs from each other for a thorough extermination. For the most part they are just killing cultists until they get to their assigned targets.

 

We are also told that Russ had expected this from the beginning and his plan for the trap was to spring the trap, then just outfight the ambushes.

[Marshal Loss]

For the most part they are just killing cultists until they get to their assigned targets.

 

That is true for the teams going deep into the ship, such as Bror's; not so for the main force under Russ. They fight Legionary opposition right from the beginning, sporadically after the initial boarding (including Alpha Legion & Word Bearers) before a massive fight prior to the throne room. The Wolves still do significant damage to the ship, however, although Bjorn notes that Horus has the resources to repair it in a matter of months (despite it being noted earlier in the book that the Vengeful Spirit wasn't in great shape anyway due to the war). That's not to dispute Horus wanting them to come deeper/Russ' plan being to slaughter the SoH until Horus himself was forced to come out though.

[b1soul]

SW either crush or get crushes...there's little middle ground with that lot

[nagashnee]

Considering the point of the betrayal/change of orders was to 'destroy' both the wolves and the sons, I'm surprised it took this many losses to break them.

 

Like these Shattered legions, getting book after book, after book...

 

Well what do you expect them to do, cover all legions equally? CRAZY TALK. Next you will want a Imperial Army or Dark Mechanicum book. 

 

You wait till the Space wolf book on the campaigns mentioned in this book, Vanaheim and one other if i remember correctly (?). 

[Orwell84]

 

Considering the point of the betrayal/change of orders was to 'destroy' both the wolves and the sons, I'm surprised it took this many losses to break them.

 

Like these Shattered legions, getting book after book, after book...

 

Well what do you expect them to do, cover all legions equally? CRAZY TALK. Next you will want a Imperial Army or Dark Mechanicum book. 

 

You wait till the Space wolf book on the campaigns mentioned in this book, Vanaheim and one other if i remember correctly (?). 

 

 

Not equally in the literal sense of the word, but maybe give more screen time to the legions playing a bigger role in the war, like, say, the titular character of this series and his legion who are spearheading the traitor war effort. At least this novel helped, and Slaves to Darkness seems likely to be a really good 'behind the scenes' look at the SoH and the traitor high command.

[bluntblade]

Yeah, Horus and company's showings are patchy as hell. French will hopefully fix that: his FW work on them with Alan Bligh makes them appropriately fearsome.