Scribe Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Wolfsbane also brings forth an interesting question. Why did,nt the greatest psyker of them all together with Malcador deal with the emergence of psykers in the Legions earlier? Long before Magnus was found. Russ was found long before Magnus and could have been instrumental in molding the emergent psykers using his own rune priests as an example. The Emperor had larger issues to deal with, such as the webway, and trusted (oops!) that his seconds, crafted with the intent of managing their legions, would be able to keep things in check. Just put it on the pile of mistakes He made over the course of the heresy, its not like its a unique occurrence. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5083578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fang_Guard23 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Council of Nikkea - Russ is like "Well my Rune Priests use this special pixie dust so it is totally okay for them." Other Primarchs rolleyes hard .Russ had valid reasons for his views though he is still a hypocrite and could have worked with the other primarchs like Jagathai to guide the librarium in the right direction Whose to say he had valid reasons? At least we can all agree he is a hypocrite. Russ goes further, in private company, that he is a hypocrite. Russ spoke to Kva that the legion needs to rethink their connection with the warp sometime down the road Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5083717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Pretty much all the primarchs were hypocrites. As Russ said, if he is doing something the Emperor disapproves of, let the Emperor come stop him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5083723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 ...Russ says, knowing full well the Emperor is down in his lab, and is almost literally uncontactable, having placed all responsibilities onto Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5083766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Wolfsbane also brings forth an interesting question. Why did,nt the greatest psyker of them all together with Malcador deal with the emergence of psykers in the Legions earlier? Long before Magnus was found. Russ was found long before Magnus and could have been instrumental in molding the emergent psykers using his own rune priests as an example. puts the "recognise my error" mantra from PB in a new light Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5083795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Pretty much all the primarchs were hypocrites. As Russ said, if he is doing something the Emperor disapproves of, let the Emperor come stop him. pretty much all people are hypocrites Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5083798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Russ goes further, in private company, that he is a hypocrite. Russ spoke to Kva that the legion needs to rethink their connection with the warp sometime down the road Ah now that, is delicious. I mean I may just buy the book to read that section alone. My favourite part of the Heresy is when loyalists do some navel gazing, and find themselves wanting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5083811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Lord Caerolion: the Big E apparently keeps an eye on the goings of the Palace, as he intervened between Dorn and Corax in Deliverance Lost and then again between the RG librarian in the Maze. As Malcador told Dorn, Russ has his own path and has to follow it. @mc warhammer: very true. It takes a unique cause of tunnel vision to deny this @scribe: then you’ll love Dark Imperium. Guilliman looks at how the Codex has impacted the last 10k years and starts tearing out parts Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Triszin Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 question for those who have read the book What is the Erkling? Where is the Erklings lair? What is the Erklings lair? My book hasn't shipped yet and I am very eager to know. Anything written about Fenris, the planet? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Honestly, I’m pretty free with spoilers but I really think you should wait on that one Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Triszin Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Honestly, I’m pretty free with spoilers but I really think you should wait on that one funnily enough, book just showed up. XD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagashnee Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 On reflection 3 things irk me in this book, which is a pretty solid if in my view unnecessary and plot muddling tale. First, the fact that Russ beat Horus, full deamon i am now ascended, chaos is king horus head on, and spared him because of hesitation. This is a huge issue for 2 reasons, 1 and to be blunt, WORSE EXECUTIONER EVER, his only mission was to kill horus, BL and the author said SURE lets make him able to do it, and them Russ hesitates? Space wolf books and fans go on and on about the executioner role, but feth me after this book i cant see them bringing it up again. Secondly It cheapens the entire heresy, Leman Russ SOLOED him, mano a mano and won. Heck one wonders why the Emperor ever bothered to leave the dungeon, give Dorn, Sang and the Khan a spear each and let them carve him a new one. This is post molech horus mind you. So what ? Was this not his final form? Is the HH going full on DBZ? Both Horus and Russ confirmed Russ could have done it and dint, this isnt some eye of the beholder stuff. 2 Belisarius Cawl is the most OP techpriest i have ever met, his entire character seems to be 'i am better then you'. He overruns every security protocol meant to stop him doing that specific thing multiple times, invents whatever he likes on his off time, doubles are mechanicum undercover secret backstory agent, and of course his only weakness is that he is too good of a person to let innocents die. Yawn. Lastly since when are the ultramarines 'mostly intact'? Their chief recruiting world is dead, the majority of their fleet is dead, at best 1/3 of the legion is dead, Emperors knows how many worlds the shadow crusade gutted. This is not a centuries old conflict, the ashes are still hot, no one is rebuilding ships or planets in this timeframe, the ruinstorm was braved, but the 500 worlds ( whats left of them) are not spawning backup and throwing them into the storm. % they are worse off then the BA and maybe even the fists. I feel like they wanted to say numerous but went with intact instead and it just caused me to snap out of the book and go 'huh'. It was a well written book, but the plot, its place in the overall narrative, the inclusion of Cawl ( tho i loved the Mechanicum parts) leave me sure i will never read it again. And i maintain the position that they were far far far better ways to get Russ off Terra, (tho will all the warpstorms he never needed to go back). What it did do great was the wolves themselves, nice to see Leman Russ take a moment and really look at his past actions and go, 'hey, maybe we dropped the ball on some stuff'. Which is immediately balanced out by the total lack of viewpoints into the SOH, other then BAH DEAMONS! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Wow that is amazing he spared him - what a huge mistake... might be why he eventually went off on his lonesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 First, the fact that Russ beat Horus, full deamon i am now ascended, chaos is king horus head on, and spared him because of hesitation. This is a huge issue for 2 reasons, 1 and to be blunt, WORSE EXECUTIONER EVER, his only mission was to kill horus, BL and the author said SURE lets make him able to do it, and them Russ hesitates? Space wolf books and fans go on and on about the executioner role, but feth me after this book i cant see them bringing it up again. Secondly It cheapens the entire heresy, Leman Russ SOLOED him, mano a mano and won. Heck one wonders why the Emperor ever bothered to leave the dungeon, give Dorn, Sang and the Khan a spear each and let them carve him a new one. This is post molech horus mind you. So what ? Was this not his final form? Is the HH going full on DBZ? Both Horus and Russ confirmed Russ could have done it and dint, this isnt some eye of the beholder stuff. Can I get some quotes on this? I'm pretty sure this book isnt worth my money. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I don't understand why everyone has a problem with Russ not actually wanting to kill Horus. Technically he and his Legion are the Emperor's sanction within the Astartes, but nobody actually gave him orders to go and take on the Warmaster mano-a-mano. More to the point, everyone tells him he can't. I wouldn't say that Russ bested Horus, he stuck a well time blow that caused some damage to him. The equivalent of knocking off a wound in a game of 30k. The physical damage has already recovered before the end of the novel, those effects weren't that long lasting or impactful to the fight himself. If it weren't for the special powers of the spear itself I'm sure Horus would have shrugged off the impact of that attack as nothing and carried on. This is really the only impactful wound that Russ was able to land on the Warmaster, but Horus carved a great chunk of damage to Russ to the point that the rest of the Rout had to intervene to stop him getting killed and carry an unconscious Russ away from the fight. I'd hardly say that Russ was anywhere winning that fight. As for why he hesitated, because he saw a way that Horus could be saved, a way in that he didn't have to kill his brother. Pre-Davin Horus was pretty well liked / loved amongst the majority of the Primarchs, which is why his betrayal resonated amongst those Primarchs that remained loyal to the Emperor. I can't say for certain how the Russ / Horus relationship was in the run-up to Horus becoming Warmaster, but it's clear that there's a lot of respect between the two Primarchs due to their similarities. The effect of the spear gives Russ an answer that he want's to see, that it's not really Horus Lupercal that's become the arch-traitor and that he's somewhere in there and can be saved. He wouldn't have to kill Horus in order to stop the war, in fact he could redeem him and bring back his brother from before all this had started. But is he presses on after the spear has done it's work he not killing Horus the Warmaster, he's killing his brother Horus Lupercal. Given everything we've seen in Wolfsbane and in previous BL novels (Prospero Burns being a prime example) the role of the Emperor's Sanction is one that weighs heavy on Russ, and isn't one he particularly enjoys implementing. As much as I dislike Russ for being goaded into killing Magnus by the Warmaster, you are able to see that he want's to give Magnus every chance to surrender and avoid that fate (even if the conduit he thinks leads to Magnus does nothing of the sort). I'm sure some Primarchs would be easier to censure, such as Angron and Kurze, but the remainder are the closest thing to family that these individuals have. You may not agree with them 100% of the time, other times you quarrel and fall out with each other, but ultimately they're blood - and nothing tops that. The last thing I would want to do is kill family, especially when other options are there, and I imagine it would be the same for Russ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 That's an interesting way of looking at it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 You may not agree with them 100% of the time, other times you quarrel and fall out with each other, but ultimately they're blood - and nothing tops that. The last thing I would want to do is kill family, especially when other options are there, and I imagine it would be the same for Russ. Even if your 'blood' has set half the universe against itself, burned much of it to ruin, and destroyed billions of lives while shattering the dream of a united Human empire? K. Russ is soft. If he had the chance, and didnt take it, he's soft. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedor Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Maybe he would have been quicker to try for a deathblow had things not already gone the way they did with the Thousand Sons? It could be none of the Primarchs were really suited to be a repeated cold hearted executioner of brothers. A lot of the executioner thing in PB seemed to be the Wolves creating their own mythology and a bit of a self-aware fearful reputation for themselves, rather than something we knew for sure they had carried out repeatedly or were singularly suited for. BL seem to be have been going for a more multi-faceted portrayal of Russ. Looking at the end of Praetorian of Dorn, maybe it was actually the Stone Man that was best suited to be an executioner. THAT was coldly done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 The Russ/Horus fight reminds me of the Saul/Lucius fight on Istvaan 3. The 'good guy' is pretty outclassed and is doing everything he can to just survive. Then he does something unorthodox that instantly gives him the upper hand. Then something happens and the fight ends before either can finish it. It seems like a pretty common way to have the good guy still 'win' while losing and not effect the status quo. It's a little bit comic book-y for my taste, but at the end of the day Horus needs to get stabbed by the spear somehow. Or else whats the point of the entire novel? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagashnee Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 'Bjorn! Russ murmured. I could have killed him. I could have killed him.....Russ grabed at Bjorns armour with a weak hand. His eyes were wild. 'i Hesitated'. From Russ. 'So you were good enought after all, brother. You could have killed me. You should not have hesitated. This weakness is what will cost our father victory, You so nearly won.' From Horus. Russ spends the ENTIRE BOOK talking about killing horus, about how he is the Emperors executioner and he must do his duty or die trying, how he cant play defence if their is a 1% he can take out horus. He wet noodled it. Mucking up his entire HH purpose of being ( the executioner thing did not exist before the book series to my knowledge), the reason he threw away the remains of his legion, the legion he left terra. It did not need to be in the book, i cant figure out what it adds to the story, i know what it costs the overall narrative ( The Emperor should wipe the floor with Horus), unless he reveals his true final form in some latter book ( yawn). Kinda makes allot of things pointless really ( looking at you Molech). They could have fought, he could have lost but wounded Horus, done! For people saying he could not kill his brother, he did in Magnus for far far far less. Istvaan, ferus, prospero, the deamons, the atrocities Horus has committed at this point, the thousands of dead space wolves ( forget everything else). Ut was to me, the low point of the novel. And up there with the Nikea retcon for most changes to heresy lore. Or else whats the point of the entire novel? Money mostly. Oh and some vague line about getting Russ off terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I have lost any respect I had left for Russ . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 'Bjorn! Russ murmured. I could have killed him. I could have killed him.....Russ grabed at Bjorns armour with a weak hand. His eyes were wild. 'i Hesitated'. From Russ. 'So you were good enought after all, brother. You could have killed me. You should not have hesitated. This weakness is what will cost our father victory, You so nearly won.' From Horus. Russ spends the ENTIRE BOOK talking about killing horus, about how he is the Emperors executioner and he must do his duty or die trying, how he cant play defence if their is a 1% he can take out horus. He wet noodled it. Mucking up his entire HH purpose of being ( the executioner thing did not exist before the book series to my knowledge), the reason he threw away the remains of his legion, the legion he left terra. It did not need to be in the book, i cant figure out what it adds to the story, i know what it costs the overall narrative ( The Emperor should wipe the floor with Horus), unless he reveals his true final form in some latter book ( yawn). Kinda makes allot of things pointless really ( looking at you Molech). They could have fought, he could have lost but wounded Horus, done! For people saying he could not kill his brother, he did in Magnus for far far far less. Istvaan, ferus, prospero, the deamons, the atrocities Horus has committed at this point, the thousands of dead space wolves ( forget everything else). Ut was to me, the low point of the novel. And up there with the Nikea retcon for most changes to heresy lore. Or else whats the point of the entire novel? Money mostly. Oh and some vague line about getting Russ off terra. Yikes. Well yeah, wake me next time ADB, Wraight, or French have something come out for HH. I dont trust anyone else. Yeah yeah, the plots are all peer driven, group meetings, and all that jazz, but the premise for this book was bad, the 'executioner' plot line is bad, and if Russ cant even execute his stated goal for soft reasons, then get out of here. As you said, whats the point of the book? Getting russ off terra. Well why was he even there? That alone was a retcon and didnt need to happen. The whole arc of the wolves has been suspect, from the unmitigated disaster that is Prospero Burns, allllllllllll the way to this. There is literally not a single thing about the wolves I have liked OTHER than Night of the Wolf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I fail to see how Prospero Burns is a disaster in any way save for not being Know No Fear on Prospero. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I fail to see how Prospero Burns is a disaster in any way save for not being Know No Fear on Prospero. Old topic, if you care, you can PM me, but I've been over it a million times and nobody has even come close to convincing me its a good book since it was released. EDIT: And I dont rate Know no Fear either. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Then, to quote Russ, you are truly lost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/page/10/#findComment-5084566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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