Wolfsbane HH49

[Scribe]

Then, to quote Russ, you are truly lost.

 

If thats what it means when one finds the work in those books lacking...call me lost.

[Marshal Loss]

Wow that is amazing he spared him - what a huge mistake... might be why he eventually went off on his lonesome.

 

Nope. That is because

 

To gain the knowledge of what the spear will do to Horus, he has to be stabbed with the spear, which gives him the full crushing realisation of what he and all the Primarchs are.

 

 

 

‘What are we?’ he said, though he knew full well, and his soul shrivelled in the fires of revelation. ‘How could our father have brought us into this world? How could He have made us?’

‘As your brother Magnus found, knowledge always has a price,’ said the false Russ with a sneer. ‘You wished to know, and now you do. The price for the spear’s awakening is your own. This know­ledge will forever torment you, and eventually it will chase you from your home.'

 

 

I don't understand why everyone has a problem with Russ not actually wanting to kill Horus. 

 

Technically he and his Legion are the Emperor's sanction within the Astartes, but nobody actually gave him orders to go and take on the Warmaster mano-a-mano. More to the point, everyone tells him he can't. 

I wouldn't say that Russ bested Horus, he stuck a well time blow that caused some damage to him. The equivalent of knocking off a wound in a game of 30k. The physical damage has already recovered before the end of the novel, those effects weren't that long lasting or impactful to the fight himself. If it weren't for the special powers of the spear itself I'm sure Horus would have shrugged off the impact of that attack as nothing and carried on. This is really the only impactful wound that Russ was able to land on the Warmaster, but Horus carved a great chunk of damage to Russ to the point that the rest of the Rout had to intervene to stop him getting killed and carry an unconscious Russ away from the fight. I'd hardly say that Russ was anywhere winning that fight.

 

Because the entire novel (not to mention the leadup) is built around the premise that Russ cannot beat Horus. It simply cannot be done. This is repeated to him over and over, by everybody from the Primarchs to Malcador, and he remarks upon it himself the moment he sees him. Yet after a brief duel, a little hubris from the Warmaster gives Russ all the chance he needs to kill Horus. And Russ, the Executioner, does not take it. Sure, he couldn't have done it without the spear, but that doesn't cheapen the achievement.

 

And saying that Russ was not anywhere near winning that fight is simply not true. He could have ended Horus right then and there; Horus admits as much, and Russ says as much.

 

At the end of the day, I thought the conversation between the two of them while Horus is playing the role of a golden kebab is possibly the best part of the book. But I don't think Russ should actually have been in a position to kill him. This same Russ says earlier in the book that he's still proud of beating Magnus; Horus and Russ were never close, so I'm not sure I'm really convinced by the hesitation. It's very poetic, brother meets brother and all that, but even the passage afterwards seems a little odd, contextually:

 

 

 

Russ shook his head, barely awake. ‘Not with the traitor. Not with him. I spoke…’ He took a shuddering, rattling breath. Before he slipped away he whispered, ‘I spoke with my brother.’

 

...I mean, he spoke with Horus without his powers, and Horus was still determined to do what he was doing. That he was doing what must be done. This statement doesn't quite ring true, and speaks to the problems with the way their duel was constructed.

[Scribe]

Tasty spoiler there. :D

[Fedor]

Yeah, the Spear arc would have worked just as well with Horus still fighting and defending himself from Russ while we get the info he still feels he's doing the right thing usurping the emperor.

 

Maybe they are building up to another retcon where he tries to confide in a rampaging, grief filled scouring-era Dorn he had the chance to kill Horus...and gets slaughtered right then and there for it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

So basically, it's a poorly thought out novel desperately trying to solve a problem that was only caused by poorly thought out retcons? Gotcha.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have been playing for over 20 years - never liked Russ. This is the ONE time he could have redeemed himself in my eyes but he blows it. To me he has always been a feth-off if you know what I mean.

 

@ Major Loss - you can try to downplay it all you want but at the end of the day he pulled another Russ .

[Marshal Loss]

I have been playing for over 20 years - never liked Russ. This is the ONE time he could have redeemed himself in my eyes but he blows it. To me he has always been a feth-off if you know what I mean.

 

@ Major Loss - you can try to downplay it all you want but at the end of the day he pulled another Russ .

 

Downplay...what? Major? How am I downplaying anything, Mr hasn't read the book?

[Guest Triszin]

so just finished that chapter

 

the spear

The spear is Gungir, the swaying one, the truth seeker

...

Wait, the spear is named Gungir? so that points towards Russ's real name being Woden?

 

that whole scene was fantastic, so Russ came to realize that he primarchs are Materium Great deamons and the space marines are materium Deamons?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Triszin: I know right?! 

 

It's almost like reading the book yourself can reveal stuff not discussed in forums.

 

Though I would say the original owner of the spear is Woden, especially when you compare the trials Russ endured to certain Norse myths.

[Lord_Caerolion]

so just finished that chapter

 

the spear

The spear is Gungir, the swaying one, the truth seeker

...

Wait, the spear is named Gungir? so that points towards Russ's real name being Woden?

 

that whole scene was fantastic, so Russ came to realize that he primarchs are Materium Great deamons and the space marines are materium Deamons?

 

I think Marines would be more daemonhosts, in that sense? Mortals empowered by the essence of a greater daemon?

 

@Black Orange

 

What exactly did our good Marshal downplay? I literally have no idea what you're talking about in that post.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s no way I would spend my money to buy this novel or use my time t read it but I’ve as much right as anyone else to discuss it here. Saying it’s no big deal that Russ did not kill Horus when he had the chance is well just crazy.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

There’s no way I would spend my money to buy this novel or use my time t read it but I’ve as much right as anyone else to discuss it here. Saying it’s no big deal that Russ did not kill Horus when he had the chance is well just crazy.

 

Didnt say it or even imply that Russ not killing Horus when he had the chance isnt crazy or try and deny anybody the right to discuss a novel.

 

All I did say is that reading the book will actually give better view of a novel than various posts of a forum alone.

 

Oh yea, and I think the Emperor is Woden as Russ' trials mirrors those of Thor

[Lord_Caerolion]

...That's not what Marshall Loss said though, Black Orange? Fair enough to not have read the book but still discuss it, I haven't read it either, but your bias against Russ is really showing if you're reading a post stating that it makes no sense that Russ didn't kill Horus, as saying that people are agreeing that it's no big deal.

 

There's a difference between commenting on a book you haven't read, and coming in and disregarding everything that's actually being discussed and happening to just say "well I think Russ is stupid".

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That was directed at Loss in regards to Russ

[b1soul]

@ nagashnee

 

"First, the fact that Russ beat Horus, full deamon i am now ascended, chaos is king horus head on"

 

Russ stabs Horus in the stomach with his special spear...this weakens Chaos' grip on Horus and causes Horus to doubt his path for a moment.

 

I didn't read anything about Russ simply besting Horus.

 

I do think the idea of Russ deciding to spare Horus does nothing to expand or deepen Russ' character. It's really stupid and only undermines his character IMO

[Marshal Loss]

There’s no way I would spend my money to buy this novel or use my time t read it but I’ve as much right as anyone else to discuss it here. Saying it’s no big deal that Russ did not kill Horus when he had the chance is well just crazy.

 

I never said that it was 'no big deal' that Russ did not kill Horus when he had the chance. I literally said the opposite.

 

 

But I don't think Russ should actually have been in a position to kill him.

 

Accusing somebody of downplaying something is rather rich when you 1) have not read the book, and 2) you haven't even read their post properly.

 

That was directed at Loss in regards to Russ

 

Pray, point out where I said such a thing

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@ nagashnee

 

"First, the fact that Russ beat Horus, full deamon i am now ascended, chaos is king horus head on"

 

Russ stabs Horus in the stomach with his special spear...this weakens Chaos' grip on Horus and causes Horus to doubt his path for a moment.

 

I didn't read anything about Russ simply besting Horus.

 

I do think the idea of Russ deciding to spare Horus does nothing to expand or deepen Russ' character. It's really stupid and only undermines his character IMO

 

Agreed on both.

 

I will say as a person with a large family and sometimes dysfunctional family, I do understand how a moment of doubt can creep us like it did on Russ. 

 

I have to remember the Primarchs are a special type of family. They are all that there are or ever will be. There wont be any more and Russ was somehow involved in removing atleast one of them. 

Russ, who can be the most human of the Primarchs (or atleast show it) loves Horus in a way I doubt he loved his brothers. Horus was the first he met, first he put himself against. It was also the first time Russ learned he truly wasnt ALONE. He wasnt some god amongst mortals, but one of a brotherhood. An equal to measure himself against. It was a special bond that clearly impacted Russ and how he developed himself and his legion.

 

To have some doubt, a possible chance at salvation, cause Russ to stay his attacks even momentarily isnt just human, to me it's entirely understandable.

[Guest Triszin]

 

There’s no way I would spend my money to buy this novel or use my time t read it but I’ve as much right as anyone else to discuss it here. Saying it’s no big deal that Russ did not kill Horus when he had the chance is well just crazy.

 

Didnt say it or even imply that Russ not killing Horus when he had the chance isnt crazy or try and deny anybody the right to discuss a novel.

 

All I did say is that reading the book will actually give better view of a novel than various posts of a forum alone.

 

Oh yea, and I think the Emperor is Woden as Russ' trials mirrors those of Thor

 

on that

I think Russ to be a algamantion of Thor and Woden-odin. I did a long post a while ago, and with the new information about the spear, I stand by my old theory on russ, I'll try to find it.

 

But some of it invoves Russ Stabing the emperor on the golden throne with the spear, killing the emperors body allowing him to ascend, and now with the knowledge of the spear, it would make the emperor remember that he was once a man, as he ascends, so he doesnt end up as a chaos deity

 

found my old post

 

Russ:

Russ's disappearance seems to be loosely based on Odin/Thor lore, in addition to having some similarities to the Marvel Asgardian lore.

It's also of note that the Odin/Thor characters seem to alternate between Russ and the Emperor.

 

Going into the eye of terror and the warp to locate the fruit from the tree of life to bring back the emperor.

 

In this instance lets look at it this way, Odin hung from the tree of life for 9 days and nights and was pierced by a spear.

 

If we look at the tree of life in 40k as the Astronomicon and the Golden throne it kind of makes sense, the spear that pierces him could either be Horus's Talon, but more likely he hasn't been pierced by the spear. Yet. I believe that spear to be the Lion's sword is is required for the rebirth of the emperor and his ascension. In addition the 9 days and nights could be yet another reference to 9000~ years.

 

"He also pawned one of his eyes for a drink of the Spring of Mimir. Through this offering, Odin received supreme wisdom."

In this part I believe this to actually be Russ, in the Warp. He'll find the Tree of life/Fountain of youth, my guess is he finds the Warp Deity for Life in the 40k universe, and theres a cost to bring back some of the Warp infused waters to "revive/ascend" the emperor. for that russ pays an Eye.

 

Also symbolic because he is now a cyclops, the same as magnus (in that regard), this will also be a next step in change of perspective for russ.

 

"

Odin is said to have reached the world beyond the realms of death through his spiritual hanging. By this means he gained knowledge of the runes and learned to master their magic. This power allows him to bring the dead back. Odin preserved the head of Mimir (slain by the Vanir) with herbs to continue consulting him. Odin also has a reputaion for using deceitful magic. In art he is frequently portrayed with a missing eye as he undergoes the torment of hanging. Believers in Odin offered human sacrifices to this god.

Odin is married to Frigg. Odin will die a physical death in the jaws of the Fenrir wolf during the last great battle of Ragnarok."

 

this last passage of Odin's ascension is also important.

It talks of his reaching the warp, and coming to terms with being a god, and with it its powers and knowledge.

The head of Mimir is actually the head of a primarch, Ferrus. At his ascension, when the battle is on and in the imperial palace, a unknown vetcor will finally reveal his loyalties, Omegon. He is and has been loyal to the emperor, and one thing he's actively been working towards is getting the real skull of ferrus, he will return it to his father and the emperor will use the skull to bring back Ferrus, either as a warp deity or in physicality.

 

But before this occurs Odin's physical body must die, at the jaws of fenrir. Russ. Russ with the "knowledge or warp infused water" will understand that inorder to save the emperor and the imperium his physical body must die. Russ is and will always be loyal. Russ will end the emperors body on the golden throne, and RG and others will turn on him, Omegon, Cypher coming to russ's aid. The last battle ragnarok is the wolftime, and the battle for the fate of the emperor, if russ kills him he ascends, if chaos kills him they feast on his corpse in the warp.

 

but the story of russ before these events follow the path of Thor later in life, in lore and marvel lore. Rune Lord Thor is a thing, and that is what I suspect Russ to become. Magnus has hinted that Russ is the same as he, a powerful psyker. Now with russ being a cyclops he will also have mastered the Runes, and also pluck the threads of fate. Russ will be a mixture of Odin and Thor when he is revealed. Wise, a powerful pysker/seer, and monstrous in appearance he will be wulfen touched.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But this isn't the end of the 40k its really the beginning, for when the emperor ascends it stops galactic travel, the entire warp across the galaxy become turbulent and storm like, in this time, the chaos gods will get real footholds within the galaxy and the story goes on.

 

I might rewrite it with the new lore from wolfsbane

[mc warhammer]

i'm in the minority, but it sounds interesting to me. if a "soft" russ means we get complex relationships, motivations and choices then i'll take soft.

[Marshal Loss]

Complex relationships, motivations and choices would be good if they were done well. The end result is, to me, rather jarring given the premise of the novel. I don't think the prologue provides anywhere near enough context on the relationship between the two Primarchs to justify Russ' indecision.

 

If this was conveyed in the book:

 

 

Russ, who can be the most human of the Primarchs (or atleast show it) loves Horus in a way I doubt he loved his brothers. Horus was the first he met, first he put himself against. It was also the first time Russ learned he truly wasnt ALONE. He wasnt some god amongst mortals, but one of a brotherhood. An equal to measure himself against. It was a special bond that clearly impacted Russ and how he developed himself and his legion.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it wasn't. It is far more of a story of wyrd, of fate, than it is of Russ struggling to make a decision as to what he's going to do with Horus.

 

To me, the book does a brilliant job of covering Russ, but a terrible job of factoring in Horus to the equation, if that makes sense. It's like the whole goal of killing Horus is just tacked on to a pre-existing arc.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i'm in the minority, but it sounds interesting to me. if a "soft" russ means we get complex relationships, motivations and choices then i'll take soft.

 

To me the fight was among the weaker points of the novel.

 

The brief discussion among the Primarchs, Malcador's insights to Russ, and Russ' return to Fenris were all worth the admission alone.

 

@Triszin: That would be pretty awesome, excellent what if!

 

@Marshal Loss: I take Wolfsbane to be a chapter of a larger story, starting in Prospero Burns, continuing in the Wolf King and concluding in Weregeld.

 

On it's own it brings problems to the party, but when arced together it stands pretty tall. 

[Marshal Loss]

@Marshal Loss: I take Wolfsbane to be a chapter of a larger story, starting in Prospero Burns, continuing in the Wolf King and concluding in Weregeld.

 

On it's own it brings problems to the party, but when arced together it stands pretty tall. 

 

 

Not disputing that, but:

 

To me, the book does a brilliant job of covering Russ, but a terrible job of factoring in Horus to the equation, if that makes sense. It's like the whole goal of killing Horus is just tacked on to a pre-existing arc.

 

For a book named 'Wolfsbane,' featuring Lupercal and the Wolf King facing up against each other, the first two discovered, two of the best fighters/commanders/most prominent Primarchs, I think the 'wolf versus wolf' angle, and their relationship, was not given near enough focus.

 

I would have liked to see more flashbacks appearing throughout the novel, in a similar fashion to how John French inserted the Dorn and Alpharius flashbacks to flesh out their relationship prior to the conclusion of Praetorian of Dorn. Now that is how you should handle something like this.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

@Marshal Loss: I take Wolfsbane to be a chapter of a larger story, starting in Prospero Burns, continuing in the Wolf King and concluding in Weregeld.

 

On it's own it brings problems to the party, but when arced together it stands pretty tall. 

 

 

Not disputing that, but:

 

To me, the book does a brilliant job of covering Russ, but a terrible job of factoring in Horus to the equation, if that makes sense. It's like the whole goal of killing Horus is just tacked on to a pre-existing arc.

 

For a book named 'Wolfsbane,' featuring Lupercal and the Wolf King facing up against each other, the first two discovered, two of the best fighters/commanders/most prominent Primarchs, I think the 'wolf versus wolf' angle, and their relationship, was not given near enough focus.

 

 

Isnt this the samer series with a book called Prospero Burns (but not until the last chapter or so)?

 

I do agree that there should have been more about just them, but if my wishes were novels (or atleast chapters) then the HH series would never end

[Marshal Loss]

Unfortunately I keep editing posts while you're typing. In the spirit of being constructive, I think this would have been a good idea:

 

 

I would have liked to see more flashbacks appearing throughout the novel, in a similar fashion to how John French inserted the Dorn and Alpharius flashbacks to flesh out their relationship prior to the conclusion of Praetorian of Dorn. Now that is how you should handle something like this

 

Point taken though: a large part of this is undoubtedly my own desire to see their relationship fleshed out, which was what I was looking forward too. Oh well!

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Unfortunately I keep editing posts while you're typing. In the spirit of being constructive, I think this would have been a good idea:

 

 

I would have liked to see more flashbacks appearing throughout the novel, in a similar fashion to how John French inserted the Dorn and Alpharius flashbacks to flesh out their relationship prior to the conclusion of Praetorian of Dorn. Now that is how you should handle something like this

 

Point taken though: a large part of this is undoubtedly my own desire to see their relationship fleshed out, which was what I was looking forward too. Oh well!

 

i'd pay good money to just see the Primarchs hang out and play chess or something. Just to see how the Primarchs interact with each other, the clash of personalities, a brotherhood being forged...only to later crush it all. 

 

I've never been too fond of Guy Haley's writing. He certainly isnt equal to French (yet)