BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 The Ultramarines managed to get completely caught unawares and then proceeded to retake their lost territory and then make their way back to Terra. They are awesome. Space Wolves ... not so much. (according to the authors/editors etc) This such much plus Ultramarines never cheat to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 You mean the galaxy spanning civil war that rips the Imperium apart doesn't have enough bright spots? If I have to choose between a good written story and a dark one, give me good written one any day. There isn't really anything dark or tragic about something like Armatura. Ultramarines posses advantage in military forces, in tactics, and they are fighting on the fortified home ground. Their advantages are massive. They lose anyway, and by a margin so huge that Lorgar can immediately divide his forces into several smaller ones, assault multiple other worlds, and win on every single one. The same song and tale every single time. It doesn't matter if we need to turn characters into idiots, employ diabolous ex machinas, or just outright ignore the most basic principles of warfare and governance. Grimdark always triumphs. Because the theme matters more than writing a good story. That is quintessence of everything I consider to be wrong with Black Library handling of 40k writing. The ends trump over means. The story needs to be dark, therefore everything else is secondary. Characterisation, plot, good writing, basic logic... all is secondary to the principle goal: The story needs to be dark. Pah. Just print three hundred pages of "Chaos will win!" in every book, at least it will be more honest. This is only partially in jest. BL evidently attempts to write Heresy as fifty plus book long tragedy with no catharsis. That is a fools errand. There is no writer in this world that can successfully pull that off. None. Existential Nihilism that stems from everything being entirely pointless is a fine theme for a book, not a universe. Meaningful conflict is a soul of drama. There is nothing meaningful about watching a drawn out torture of terminally ill man, and that is precisely the feeling BL invokes in me lately. The Blood Angels also walked into a trap that was meant to crush the entire legion. According to Sanguinius at the end of FtT (or UE) he still has most of his legion in Imperium Secundus. Though you wouldn't know it based on the disappearing act the legion managed to pull throughout all of Pharos and every other UE tied story. Ah, yes. The Fear to Tread. The only non-pyrrhic Imperial victory in the entire Heresy. Back when I thought that the series might actually balance the never-ending stream of Grimdarkness. Alas. On the other hand, Russ may have weakened Horus in a way that proves critical, through a gambit no one else would have dared. We must wait and see And? That's another thing people don't seem to get: Under current presentation of Warhammer 40000 universe, preserving the Imperium is, undeniably, an evil act. Under deontological interpretation of morality, where we look at acts in and of themselves, it is an evil act, because Imperium itself is an oppressive regime, and thus evil under any decent deontological theorem. Under consequentialist interpretation of morality, where we look at acts in light of their consequences, it is an evil act, because every second of its existence millions new souls are brought into a short existence that will inevitably end in eternity of hell, when their souls are claimed and tortured for fun by four malevolent god-like beings that cannot possibly be defeated. So yes. Even assuming that Russ indeed managed to weaken Horus, all that achieves is that Imperium will survive for few thousand years more. Quintillions of people will live short lives under oppression of the worst, most oppressive regime imaginable, lied to that they may achieve something, where, as a matter of fact, the best they can hope for is that their children will live another day, only to one day end up playthings for the neverborn, a fate from which there is no escape and against which there is no protection. And that is the essence of Grimdarkness: A story with meaning sacrificed on the altar of telling a story of the most miserable, pointless struggle imaginable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 TLDR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 @TheRealMcCagh Thramas wasn't unsustainable, it was simply a wild goose chase until the DA acquired the means to, essentially, teleport their fleet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Alright let's get back to the discussion of the novel Wolfsbane. Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 . So yes. Even assuming that Russ indeed managed to weaken Horus, all that achieves is that Imperium will survive for few thousand years more. Quintillions of people will live short lives under oppression of the worst, most oppressive regime imaginable, lied to that they may achieve something, where, as a matter of fact, the best they can hope for is that their children will live another day, only to one day end up playthings for the neverborn, a fate from which there is no escape and against which there is no protection. And that is the essence of Grimdarkness: A story with meaning sacrificed on the altar of telling a story of the most miserable, pointless struggle imaginable. The struggle is the point. I'm glad you're accepting what 40K is though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 So yes. Even assuming that Russ indeed managed to weaken Horus, all that achieves is that Imperium will survive for few thousand years more. Quintillions of people will live short lives under oppression of the worst, most oppressive regime imaginable, lied to that they may achieve something, where, as a matter of fact, the best they can hope for is that their children will live another day, only to one day end up playthings for the neverborn, a fate from which there is no escape and against which there is no protection. And that is the essence of Grimdarkness: A story with meaning sacrificed on the altar of telling a story of the most miserable, pointless struggle imaginable. Ten Thousand Years and counting. Not bad, considering that is five times as long as we've had now A.D., and a quarter of what the setting up to that point has gotten through A.D. Nevermind that the Golden Age of the Imperium lasted a couple centuries at best, and they managed to maintain the status quo for ~1.5 thousand years to the point where its society and government could grow so complacent as to almost get wiped out by the first credible, large-scale threat in ages (aka the Waaagh of the Beast), just shy of the 2nd Black Crusade. WE may be fairly certain that, at some point, Chaos will win and devour all. But every day it does not, is a victory for not just mankind but the galaxy at large. We all know that we are going to die before long, but every day we live longer until then is one we can enjoy. If the inevitability of death and eternal torment was so oppressive, we might as well drown babies right at birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Ignore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 What do you mean by "trope" in this context, DarKnight?They way I mean is that the idea Russ is pretending to be an uncivilized barbarian while actually intelligent is not something that is used as a starting point to further explore his character, but is just jammed down our throats as hamfisted characterization. It's just lazy IMO Right, I get you. I was just unsure because I haven't seen people use "trope" to mean "cliche" or "bad idea" very much. Sounds like the trope TV Tropes lists as Informed Attribute, I guess? (Tropes Are Tools) i saw someone reinvent the word “mcguffin” on these boards the other week. and who knows what “mary sue” actually means these days “trope” may as well become a dirty word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfburk Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 So yes. Even assuming that Russ indeed managed to weaken Horus, all that achieves is that Imperium will survive for few thousand years more. Quintillions of people will live short lives under oppression of the worst, most oppressive regime imaginable, lied to that they may achieve something, where, as a matter of fact, the best they can hope for is that their children will live another day, only to one day end up playthings for the neverborn, a fate from which there is no escape and against which there is no protection. And that is the essence of Grimdarkness: A story with meaning sacrificed on the altar of telling a story of the most miserable, pointless struggle imaginable. Ten Thousand Years and counting. Not bad, considering that is five times as long as we've had now A.D., and a quarter of what the setting up to that point has gotten through A.D. Nevermind that the Golden Age of the Imperium lasted a couple centuries at best, and they managed to maintain the status quo for ~1.5 thousand years to the point where its society and government could grow so complacent as to almost get wiped out by the first credible, large-scale threat in ages (aka the Waaagh of the Beast), just shy of the 2nd Black Crusade. WE may be fairly certain that, at some point, Chaos will win and devour all. But every day it does not, is a victory for not just mankind but the galaxy at large. We all know that we are going to die before long, but every day we live longer until then is one we can enjoy. If the inevitability of death and eternal torment was so oppressive, we might as well drown babies right at birth. Agreed, its basically what the Emperor says on Outcast Dead, his last move, not a winning move, but one that assures a stalemate for millennia. Many complained about that book, but for me the representation of the Emperor in there was perfect, and MILES better than say in Master of Mankind, where the Emperor basically is clueless on what he is doing, like a normal mortal commander that got his frontline brokenthrough and is completely lost. In fact, the Emperor in Master of Mankind reminds me of Napoleon III in the battle of Sedan 1870. Which is a damn shame. And sorry for the off topic. On Wolfsbane i very much enjoyed the book, though the primarch battle was very underwhelming. Just a poor choice to have Russ get Horus down and then... hesitate. The duel was a great lost opportunity, and it also did not do well to what our image of this overpowered Horus was, in my opinion And on the battle in fear to tread being the only non pyrric victory for the loyalists in the heresy.... Woudnt the battle for pluto [praetorian of dorn] be added to that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 So yes. Even assuming that Russ indeed managed to weaken Horus, all that achieves is that Imperium will survive for few thousand years more. Quintillions of people will live short lives under oppression of the worst, most oppressive regime imaginable, lied to that they may achieve something, where, as a matter of fact, the best they can hope for is that their children will live another day, only to one day end up playthings for the neverborn, a fate from which there is no escape and against which there is no protection. And that is the essence of Grimdarkness: A story with meaning sacrificed on the altar of telling a story of the most miserable, pointless struggle imaginable. Ten Thousand Years and counting. Not bad, considering that is five times as long as we've had now A.D., and a quarter of what the setting up to that point has gotten through A.D. Nevermind that the Golden Age of the Imperium lasted a couple centuries at best, and they managed to maintain the status quo for ~1.5 thousand years to the point where its society and government could grow so complacent as to almost get wiped out by the first credible, large-scale threat in ages (aka the Waaagh of the Beast), just shy of the 2nd Black Crusade. WE may be fairly certain that, at some point, Chaos will win and devour all. But every day it does not, is a victory for not just mankind but the galaxy at large. We all know that we are going to die before long, but every day we live longer until then is one we can enjoy. If the inevitability of death and eternal torment was so oppressive, we might as well drown babies right at birth. We are not fairly certain. We are absolutely certain, because we have out of universe and in universe confirmations that yes, that is precisely what is going to happen. Even if some other faction wins, be it Tyranids, or Necrons, or Orks, the souls of the dead still end up with Chaos Gods, because that is how metaphysics of the universe works. Every day Chaos does not win is a victory for Chaos, because every day brings new souls into existence, that will end up theirs. There is no other fate for them. A few decades of below average life in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable does not balance out eternity of suffering. And making parallels to our lives is silly, as the two are not equivalent. Will we die? Yes. What happens after death? None of the major religions throughout the ages argue that only hell exist. And if you believe that there is no afterlife, then the only thing that matters is here and now, and there are still people that find the life in here and now unbearable. If you don't, it is probably because life granted you opportunities. Or you just have the unusual degree of optimism. Or fatalism. 40k is different. 40k has empirically proven Hell in which all human souls will end up. Laurie Goulding compared Chaos to entropy, but that comparison does not hold up, because heat death of the universe is impartial, and finite. Chaos Gods are malevolent and infinite. Same goes for often touted comparison between 40k and 300. People seem to forget that the point of 300 is that the sacrifice was not meaningless. Battle of Thermopylae helped Greece win that war. And won they did. And that's why that battle is remembered, rather than, say, Battle of Corinth. And that point about pointlessness becomes more and more pronounced every year as I read 40k books, especially Heresy. Or to put it another way: Why would I find continuous survival of humanity to be a good thing, if it only leads infinite increase in suffering that cannot be in any way averted until it reaches the tipping point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 honest question- do all the dead end up chilling with the chaos gods? is ferrus being tortured for eternity besides sigismund, malcador and tupac? and what if you serve chaos? do you get punished after you die in their service no matter what? i know Khârn and lucius have had eternal resurrection written into their contracts but how does it work in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Species survival at all costs was one of The Emperors main political points on the campaign trail. Ultimately fuelling the Chaos Gods through galactic warfare was an unfortunate by product of The Imperial Truth. Even if He has won dominance of the galaxy with hugs it would have fed she who thirsts so He really had no hope at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 honest question- do all the dead end up chilling with the chaos gods? is ferrus being tortured for eternity besides sigismund, malcador and tupac? The answer to the first is that the most positive interpretation we can possibly have is that the Emperor is protecting the faithful. It is supported by things like Celestine existing, acts of faith actually having tangible effects and the like. However, that is only true as long as he exists. Which he will eventually stop, because Imperium must lose. Here's a thing: What is done here is a comparison between temporary thing, and an infinite thing. The infinite, by default, trumps temporary. And we know souls can be reclaimed, because that is the entire principal upon which Ynnead is made. And thus, we come back whole circle to the Wolfsbane. Entire emotional crux of the novel rests upon actions of Russ possibly achieving something. Anything. And yet, because of the approach of the Black Library that favours author's interpretation, we have yet another example of the same: A novel that is pretty good in a vacuum, but becomes much less so when taken in context. It's a bizarre approach to storytelling that relies on contradictory things being true within a single series for emotional impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 honest question- do all the dead end up chilling with the chaos gods? is ferrus being tortured for eternity besides sigismund, malcador and tupac? The answer to the first is that the most positive interpretation we can possibly have is that the Emperor is protecting the faithful. It is supported by things like Celestine existing, acts of faith actually having tangible effects and the like. However, that is only true as long as he exists. Which he will eventually stop, because Imperium must lose. Here's a thing: What is done here is a comparison between temporary thing, and an infinite thing. The infinite, by default, trumps temporary. And we know souls can be reclaimed, because that is the entire principal upon which Ynnead is made. And thus, we come back whole circle to the Wolfsbane. Entire emotional crux of the novel rests upon actions of Russ possibly achieving something. Anything. And yet, because of the approach of the Black Library that favours author's interpretation, we have yet another example of the same: A novel that is pretty good in a vacuum, but becomes much less so when taken in context. It's a bizarre approach to storytelling that relies on contradictory things being true within a single series for emotional impact. Except this is true of most multi-authored or multi-screenwrit settings that take place across years, I think - from things of a comparable scale like Star Wars and Star Trek and Magic The Gathering and the big comics companies, with their own licensed property panoplies of various authors from across the globe across decades to smaller things like single-run, multi-season/issue tv shows or comics or similar. Ultimately, I think you cannot escape authorial interpretation - or even editorial interp, as editors change over the years - or changes in showrunners too with televised properties - or even just the impact of aging on a consistent group of showrunners/chief editors/the same authors. I agree with your point, but also think it's too perfectionist - these things will always have so much difference within them, and while frustrating for different persons for different reasons, are a fundamental trope of any multi-author (with author here used loosely to mean all creatives involved) setting. With Wolfsbane I was excited by how different it was from some of the setting - how it did express more of a personal interp - how it used elements of parts of it also (it shows its debts to Prospero Burns, which makes me happy - especially as it continued Abnett's interest in myth, discrepency and wider narratology expressed in that older volume - which is what made PB rankle with [far too?] many people). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 <snip> Or to put it another way: Why would I find continuous survival of humanity to be a good thing, if it only leads infinite increase in suffering that cannot be in any way averted until it reaches the tipping point? Because, once, we were here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 honest question- do all the dead end up chilling with the chaos gods? is ferrus being tortured for eternity besides sigismund, malcador and tupac? and what if you serve chaos? do you get punished after you die in their service no matter what? i know Khârn and lucius have had eternal resurrection written into their contracts but how does it work in general? No, the concept of eternal punishment is grossly underselling the metaphysics (depending on Your Personal Truth in regards to the setting) of the Warp, which is what the Gods are (again, depending on Your Personal Truth). Most souls are too weak to do anything but flare out, be consumed or dissolve into the rest of the Great Ocean or literally become one with a Chaos God, to then be split off into a Daemon. Again, depending on what your personal canon is. I prefer Liber Chaotica. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 seems like most of 40k then, up to your particular sources and interpretations thanks to both you and mrdarth for the answers though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allart01 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Honestly, MrDarth, it just sounds like you dislike Warhammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Back on topic: Approx how many Space Wolves are left after the events of this novel? I don't know if we have hard #'s, but proportions could be useful. i.e. 20% was lost at Prospero, another x % at Alaxxes, and now z % remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Back on topic: Approx how many Space Wolves are left after the events of this novel? I don't know if we have hard #'s, but proportions could be useful. i.e. 20% was lost at Prospero, another x % at Alaxxes, and now z % remains. Plus there were the two (?) successful engagements in the Sol System that the Wolves fought in during the events of Praetorian of Dorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 It states as they go to confront Horus that there are 40,000 of them left after the casualties sustained in the above mentioned engagements. They lose many thousands in the attack on Horus, and them thousands more at Yarant afterwards before they are rescued by the Raven Guard. Truly a shattered legion after Yarant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Honestly, MrDarth, it just sounds like you dislike Warhammer I dislike the version of the Warhammer this board likes. The universe is internally inconsistent, vague, and just downright contradictory at times. It doesn't take much for a guy like me to headcanon the annoying stuff away. Actually, it takes no effort at all. I can also, imagine that, have an opinion that certain developments are detrimental to overall story structure and quality of the narrative, while still liking the universe. I don't dislike 40k. I am disappointed by it, at times, but I never actively disliked it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 seems like most of 40k then, up to your particular sources and interpretations thanks to both you and mrdarth for the answers though. Pretty much. There are threads that have never (to date) been cut, but it doesn't mean they won't be. I've had other forums flat out tell me the Liber Chaotica stuff is 'wrong about chaos' which is nice, as then I know I can safely ignore them forever and miss nothing of relevance. At this point any time I make for the setting is just what I find worthwhile, I'm not going to debate things when the state of canon makes it pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 yeah, i’ll never understand that attitude. it’s like “everyone wins” is somehow unacceptable for them my own personal take is pretty much “the after is unknown”...we may have actual accounts for some but there’s still some blind spots in our knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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