Wolfsbane HH49

[Indefragable]

<snip>

 

Interesting. I wonder if Wolfsbane rectifies with the established lore that the impending arrival of the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines fleets is what forced Horus' hand into the epic final confrontation.

 

Based on the SPOILERS in here so far...

...one has to wonder if Horus considered the SW out of the fight or if the events of Wolfbane somehow show that even in diminshed capacity, the SW are such a force multiplier that their return as a hammer to the anvil of Terra itself (especially combined with DA + UM as well) are what make him drop the shields.

 

Or maybe the fancy spear ties into it somehow?

[TheRealMcCagh]

There is a fan theory that it's Horus Aximand who lowers the shields, resulting in the Vengeful Spirit show down, not the Warmaster. Which would make lowering the shields more about vindication than desperation. Not a huge amount of evidence to support the theory though

[Fedor]

 

I never got the impression from the old lore that the idea of Sanguinius opening a weak spot in the armour was all that important to the key emotional beats of his confrontation with Horus anyway. It was more a bit of additional speculation/Blood Angels mythology was it not?

 

I'm not sure i really want to see a big fight between Sang and Horus tbh, i think a cold blooded murder by OP Horus on a worn down from the siege Sanguinius after some brief words between the two will have much more impact.

 

I love when a noob comes in and insults one of the best Primarchs ever. /rolleyes

 

 

 

I'm a noob to the board, but not the setting. I've been around it since the early 90s, though to be fair i've not read the Blood Angels codex since 3rd edition so maybe they retconned things to be more of an even, epic duel and i'm just hopelessly out of date in this area. By the mid 00's i'd become more of a painter\BL only guy, but i kept up with much of the codex lore through reading fluff discussion on forums.

 

I wasn't meaning to insult Sanguinius anyway, i've just never read  any of the older lore on his confrontation with Horus as being meant to show a "two great warriors face off, both at their best and on equal footing" kind of situation. The vibe i always got from the short pieces written on their confrontation was a bleak one where we are shown one battle weary brother knowingly heading to his death-all the while sticking to his ideals and that of their father-and facing off against one who had become a monster bloated with power that could rival the emperor. A former equal and friend he likely knows he has little chance of defeating anymore.

 

It shows us how far Horus has fallen, rather than being a setup for an epic battle, the actual fight was usually secondary to the character work and described as brief without any hint Sanguinius could win. The most positive one i can remember( think it was in a blood angels codex or their index astartes WD entry) is one that speculates Horus used a lot of psychic trickery because he wouldn't have been able to win cleanly in single combat, but i'm sure that was from a purely in universe Blood Angels perspective.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We don't know what will happen but I would bet they won't stray far from the the original version... Sanguinius is slain but rends Horus' armor so that the Emperor can slay him with a super psy kill shot.

[MarineRaider]

There is a fan theory that it's Horus Aximand who lowers the shields, resulting in the Vengeful Spirit show down, not the Warmaster. Which would make lowering the shields more about vindication than desperation. Not a huge amount of evidence to support the theory though

That would be fascinating. Does he say it is out of guilt for killing his friend or something he sees in Horus?

[Roomsky]

We don't know what will happen but I would bet they won't stray far from the the original version... Sanguinius is slain but rends Horus' armor so that the Emperor can slay him with a super psy kill shot.

 

>implying Sanguinius damaging Horus` armor is the original version

 

I'm quite excited for this one, my niggles with Haley aside. My favorite work of his has always been Twisted, and good lord we need more Horus in this series with his name on it. Can't say I'm sure why it's being released now though, to my mind all the oblique references to it in Weregeld did the short no favors.

[Manchu warlord]

There is a fan theory that it's Horus Aximand who lowers the shields, resulting in the Vengeful Spirit show down, not the Warmaster. Which would make lowering the shields more about vindication than desperation. Not a huge amount of evidence to support the theory though

And then he faces Garviel Loken once more, but this time he gladly bares his throat and allows Loken to take his life...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Okay gang, let's get back on topic, discussing the contents of the novel Wolfsbane

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

Moderator of the B&C 
 

[m_r_parker]

I've been thinking about something for the past couple of days regarding this novel and the actions of Russ, and need somewhere to jot down my thoughts. It's not massively spoilerific, if you're down this far in the thread then you've probably read more spoiler-focussed items already. 

My thoughts are on the actions of Russ towards the beginning of the novel, and his motivations for them.

 

Ultimately, for a larger narrative arc for the series, Russ needs to be moved off of Terra to maintain some of the longer standing elements of the Heresy - particularly that the latter acts of the Siege had to be accelerated on Horus' side because of the threat of the returning Wolf, Lion and Guilliman (and their associated Legions) swinging the tide of the battle towards the loyalists. I'm also guessing that also from a larger narrative arc that the interaction between Horus and Russ needs to be completed, and will have consequences for Horus during the final siege. 

 

However, for this particular novel the intentions of Russ' departure isn't straightforward, and somewhat can be seen as counter-productive to the larger defensive actions. It's already been noted in this thread that this is a more 'optimistic' viewpoint on the Heresy, in that whilst everyone on Terra seems resigned to the fact that the Siege is inevitable, Russ still thinks he can prevent the Traitor fleet from reaching the Sol System by taking Horus out of action. It's an interesting idea that is both a combination of Horus' own preferred tactics ("Cut off the head, and let the body die", a tactic preferred by the XVIth Legion), and the remit given to Russ by the Emperor as his Enforcer / Executioner  within the Legions. When looking at it logically, it's a seriously flawed plan that has no guarantee of success.

• Removing Horus may make a dent in the actions of the traitors moving into Sol, but there are other candidates for taking command - Mortarion, Lorgar (now that he's in his role as arch-zealot of Chaos), even Perturabo. Abaddon probably couldn't take up the mantle immediately, but would be very useful in keeping the remaining XVIth Legion on task and in line. The currently daemonic Primarchs aren't really going to be good for heading up the traitor forces.
• The Wolves are going in massively understrength and outnumbered. From the number of legionnaires that Russ is able to muster through to the number of warships still flying his flag, the heart of the Traitor fleet will have them outgunned in every way possible. You can see this by the end of the novel, the Wolves lose a number of small and mid size ships and have huge losses in terms of dead legionnaires - the Legion has been neutralised to a certain degree. Not to mention that Russ is unconscious at the end of the novel, and the direction of the Legion is left to the Jarls. 
• Russ is told from multiple sources that he is not capable of taking out Horus post-Molech and in his prime. From the debriefing by Loken, who has seen Horus most recently and tells Russ straight-up that Horus is now too powerful, all the way to Malcador who tells Russ that both he and the Emperor can't see the results of what will happen should he face Horus alone. He (Russ) even admits to Malcador that he knows he cannot win, he cannot kill Horus outright, so he needs to return to Fenris to consult with his Gothi around a way of beating Horus outside of traditional martial techniques. So Russ knows he can't win in a straightforward fight and needs to look to the warp for assistance to a win, but both the Emperor and Malcador (2 of the strongest psykers and smartest 'men' in the Imperium) can't see how he can win or whether he will survive this venture. There's an argument that Malcador could be withholding information from Russ, and perhaps he knows the the Spear is the key and how it should be used against Horus, but Russ is still leaving Terra with no idea how to win this conflict he's heading into.

There is a much more logical choice for Russ if he's dead set on leaving Terra. It is in fact Dorn's primary plan, holding off the traitor fleet at Beta-Garmon and wearing the traitors down through attrition before they can even enter the Sol System. Russ and his Wolves supporting this effort has many mutually beneficial aspects for both his Legion and the overall Loyalist force:

• The fleet bound from Terra to Beta-Garmon is huge, and made up of both Legion and regular Imperial Navy ships. The inclusion of a few small to mid-sized Legion ships would be greatly appreciated, but the inclusion of a Gloriana class flagship would be a massive boon to the Loyalist fleet. We're literally talking about one of a handful of ships in the entire Imperium that can go toe-to-toe with the Venegeful Spirit, and would be able to neutralise a number of smaller Legion ships on it's own.
• I'm not sure who's heading up the Loyalist fleet at Beta-Garmon, but having a Primarch (or an additional Primarch) would be a great asset tactically. 
• Having an extra 40,000 Astartes in the fleet is useful for boarding Traitor ships, and also defending against Traitor boarding actions.
• For such a critical battle, the Venegeful Spirit will be guaranteed to be there to help sway the odds in the Traitors favour, with Horus no doubt on board heading up the battle. Russ doesn't need the sigils inscribed on the Venegeful Spirit to track it if there's a decent chance of it being in the heart of the action (or can track it if it isn't), but also then has the rest of the Loyalist fleet distracting the guns of the Traitor fleet when they launch they're inevitable boarding actions. Plus you have a chance that the Vengeful Spirit has been launching it's own boarding parties, so there's less to fight through on the flagship to get to Horus. 

Beta-Garmon just seems the strategically superior place to launch the killing blow than going on a near suicide run. Even with Russ heading off to Fenris to formulate a plan that enables him to 'win' there's no reason why he couldn't re-join the rest of the Loyalist fleet instead of running off towards the Vengeful Spirit directly. 

 

So I still have to ask the question, what were Russ' motivations for running off and doing this solo when a much more logical option is available?

 

I can't think it's purely for the glory of single-handedly ending the Traitor threat to the Imperium, even without Horus heading them up there are still other Primarchs that have turned traitor and have their own agendas and it would be foolish for Russ (or anyone else in the Imperium) not to think that. I could see it as getting some measure of revenge for Horus 'tricking' Russ into killing Magnus, but again there isn't any reason to go it solo.

The only reason I can think of (outside of a writing messed up) is that Russ is feeling guilt over Magnus and is seeking some degree of atonement for his actions. Before I go any further, these are purely my own musings and are not remotely mentioned within the novel itself, so don't take this as some sort of spoiler and then get annoyed at the author or Black Library - this is all me.

It wouldn't be stretching things to say that Russ and Magnus had a volatile relationship before the events of Prospero, in many ways you could say that Russ was looking for a reason to censor his brother and Horus took full advantage of that. Finding out that he had been played by Horus, and effectively killing his brother in the process (i'm not sure if he's aware that technically Magnus is still "alive" and in the warp), will have him second guessing a lot of his actions. Especially when this comes to his Legion, after all he'd incurred heavy losses during the fight on Prospero itself, followed up by subsequent attacks by the Alpha Legion at Alaxxes, amongst other conflicts that have bled his Legion. Had he done what the Emperor had asked, and not listened to Horus, how much stronger would his own Legion be? Would the Thousand Sons even remain on the Loyalists side, giving the Emperor not only another Legion and Primarch but also a strong weapon against the forces of Chaos? Questions like that can eat away at someone, and make them reconsider whether they've been in the right and actually consider that they've been in the wrong. Maybe by going and facing Horus solo Russ isn't concerned about an outcome where he doesn't make it, and maybe he's looking for a fight where he can gain some level of resolution against Horus for putting him in that situation whilst taking on some punishment for being allowed to be manipulated to such an extent. 

Maybe I'm just rambling, but my points much further up still stand - I can't see why Russ would run off and do his own thing when the better decision would be to support the fleet at Beta-Garmon. Just my take on it.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

In my eyes, there is no logical reason for Russ to go after Horus alone.

 

The story simply had to get him off of Terra.

Now going to Beta-Garmon makes sense, and if Russ wanted Horus, that’s where smart money says he’d be before Terra.

 

The story needed to remove Russ from the story until late Siege, so the events of Wolfsbane were written.

 

Sense, as often the case with BL, is not in the equation

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

To me it shows how Russ puts his desires first and is unsuccessful but those who remain can get the job done without him.

[TheRealMcCagh]

Russ, as a character, was put in a tight spot. We know he is on Terra post-Prospero, but not at Terra for the Siege. We also know him returning to Terra hastens Horus' plans. There are a bunch of smarter things Russ could have done, but they don't reconcile all of that. It's like a reverse deus ex machina that had to get Russ temporarily out of the picture without causing a huge uproar. Going to take on Horus solo, however bleak the odds, is within Russ' character. It may be a bad decision, but it's a believable one from a reader perspective. Whether it was some kind of punishment/vindication for his part in Prospero, his need to be the Emperor's Executioner, or simply the fact that he truely thought he could do it, it's a realistic choice to make through the lens of his mentality.

[mc warhammer]

i appreciate BL trying to do something else with the non-seige loyalist legions other than "running late, sorry". it isn't perfect, but i appreciate it

[Huggtand]

I agree that it's both an attempt to get Russ of Terra so it fits the narrative, and also that it actually fits Russ character to gun for Horus alone in a sudden attack,berkutra,The hunter’s cut. 

 

In that context, I would say that it's makes more sense for him to do it alone instead of joining the loyalist fleet at Beta-Garmon. At Beta-Garmon Horus fleet will be prepared for boarding actions and also have a large support of the total traitor fleet. Even if Horus knows Russ is gunning for him he don't know where or when, and he have a smaller fleet on the route to the muster at Beta-Garmon. So the chance for success of an sudden ambush seems to be higher in the chosen strategy Russ takes.

 

 This of course is just my speculation based on the spoilers. Can't wait to read the actual book  

[Karthak]

So was there any reason for this book to exist other than "dangit, we need to slaughter most of the Wolves so them having only one successor makes sense." 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Per post http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346015-wolfsbane-hh49/?p=5053554, every post not discussing Wolfsbane or it's characters has been removed.

[Moonreaper666]

So was there any reason for this book to exist other than "dangit, we need to slaughter most of the Wolves so them having only one successor makes sense."

The Wolves got slaughtered several times in the Heresy

 

-Alpha Legion Ambush (Without Luther's Dark Angels the SW Legion would have been exterminated)

 

-Iron Warriors (Turns out attacking them head on is a VERY bad idea, SW got one of their Strike Cruisers stolen)

 

-Wolfsbane (Suicide mission)

 

-Yarant

 

 

Don't forget the Great Scouring!

[Huggtand]

And don't forget the new battles on Anaheim and Daverant, mentioned in the book.

 

I see it as two-fold. Yes, they need to bring down the wolves from 100.000 just before Prosbero to about 5.000 after the Scouring so it fits the existing narrative. I pick 5.000 since the wolves is said to be larger than a standard chapter and also be able to split of a successor. That must be one of the largest decimations in the HH.

 

The other reason is that many actually want to read what Russ and the wolves do in the HH  so the must give him something to do to pass the time. Since BL apparently don't want to add more legions on Terra during the siege, a decapitating strike fits Russ character better than a "normal" battle.

 

So for me personally, I think it fits both the chosen narrative and Russ character and hopefully makes for a good story 

[nagashnee]

So now based on the novel wolfsbane we can discuss if Leman Russ did his by charging off all alone on a mission that had 0% of working. Tho we cant really blame the character for the way he is written.  But based on every book written so far including wolfsbane the case can be made that the space wolves decision to not stay on terra was the wrong one, their destination made it doubly so. And based on their losses it looks like they are setting up the Dark Angels and Ultramarines as the real relief forces for the siege, rather then the pretty much decimated space wolfs ( not to mention Yarant). 

 

If the sole issue was to get off terra, then trying to find the Dark Angels or Ultras, betta gammon, or any number of made up scenarios would have been better then a mission which could never work, and will ultimately either muck up other existing story lines (chink in armor)  or serve no real purpose.  

 

Heck why not just send him to the Fang to get reinforcements and then have him hook up with the dark angels, make it part of the older background by having him joining up with the Lion be on purpose and with a goal ( bring back more legions). 

 

[Huggtand]

If I could wich I would rather have seen a narrative where Russ after Terra musters his legion and hook them up with the dark angels as the old story. That would also keep them as a real threat to Horus. Now when they get so decimated before the siege they feel a bit useless.

 

If BL wanted to get the number down before the second founding they could easily have done that in the Great Scouring. 'Russ and the wolves is devastated because he arrived to late and pursue the traitors without any regard for their losses. Their only goal is to bring down so many traitors as possible. At the end there is just enough remaining of the legion to transform them to two chapters.'

 

But now we have this story and before I read it I can't say if it was a zero percent chance for success or not (from in universe perspective) We can't really argue the decisions in universe  from the perspective as readers, as we have know from the beginning that nothing is going to stop Horus reaching Terra.

[DarkChaplain]

Just going by Leman Russ: The Great Wolf, Russ was devastated by being late, just like the Lion was, albeit in different ways. Russ is likely fully aware that he made the wrong call and it might have cost them an Emperor. It's not like him being late didn't have any impact on his character, neither now nor before.

 

Russ *still* goes and meets up with the Lion. They still return to Terra together. He just experiences his own failure even harder by messing up his attempt to go for the throat, then gets beaten into a coma and his Legion turns nearly suicidal until Corax swoops in to deny them and save Russ. Him and Corax basically do the same afterwards as the Lion and Guilliman would - wreak havoc behind enemy lines but be late for the Siege.

 

It is fully within character for the boisterous Russ to make the attempt out of principle, pride and a sense of duty. His pride was severely wounded at Prospero, at Alaxxes, and he cannot sit idle for YEARS waiting for Horus to strike. He makes an attempt, despite advice to the contrary, and it flops, or at least doesn't work out as well as hoped. It delays his return in multiple ways. As a result, Russ has to live with knowing that he goofed and might have been better off staying on Terra. His mood after the Siege shifted dramatically even.

[bluntblade]

I do think that Black Orange phrased that rather tactlessly. Let's not try and wind up fellow board members.

 

There does seem to be a certain amount of a character being made to act a certain way to serve the plot, rather than driving it. Thinking about it, this could have made it a smarter choice to tie Russ' arc to what was meant to be The Iron Tenth than Old Earth, with Russ linking up with Meduson and co to take on Horus. Ah well.

 

To those who have read it, how well are the Sons of Horus portrayed? Does Haley get more into the Legion culture than McNeill? For all the effort he seems to have made, it never felt more than surface-level to me.

[Moonreaper666]

It is necessary for the SW to lose so many Marines

 

By the end of the Great Scouring, the Wolves are down to the few thousand Marines that we know in the current millenium

 

They only had one Successor Chapter until Guilliman's Ressurection

[bluntblade]

The Great Companies were at least meant to be Chapter-strength, though obviously that fell by the wayside over the millennia. I don't think there's a particular number the Wolves have to be reduced to.

 

It's just that with the whole of the Scouring to play with, when Russ utterly wracked with guilt, the process could be handled more elegantly than it seems to have been here.

[m_r_parker]

 

To those who have read it, how well are the Sons of Horus portrayed? Does Haley get more into the Legion culture than McNeill? For all the effort he seems to have made, it never felt more than surface-level to me.

 

TBH there's barely any SoH presence within the book, which is surprising considering that the focus of the novel is around Russ squaring off against Horus. The most we see is during the assault on the Vengeful Spirit, but the focus of those scenes is from the perspective of the Space Wolves leading the assault and between the two Primarchs. The Lupercal are more prevalent on the flagship, and the Venegeful Spirit in particular has become more 'chaotic' in nature now. 

 

One part I did appreciate was Abaddon during that fight.

One Space Wolf squad that got separated during the assault decides to sell their lives and take out some of the Venegeful Spirits critical systems before they get taken out. They find themselves entering a large atmosphere recycler and decide that this is probably their best shot, and start to evaluate how to dismantle it. A light appears on a gangway above them and Abaddon and a squad of Justaerian appear out of nowhere. The Wolf squad leader challenges Abaddon to single combat, in which Abaddon turns down. Abaddon knows that Russ is being evacuated off the ship, and has no desire to fight in single combat whilst he escapes, so he orders his Justaerian to open fire and eradicate the Wolves immediately. The last member of the squad notes that the last thing he sees is the smile on Abaddons face.