Wolfsbane HH49

[karden00]

 

 

I think that a lot of people rushing to call Russ a hypocrite over Nikaea need to revisit Prospero Burns. Russ wanted Magnus censured because the Thousand Sons seemed to be employing powers that could twist an Astartes into a monster. Also they seemed to have placed a psychic spy among the Wolves, and at Nikaea they met with what appeared to be shenanigans byba senior officer of the Thousand Sons.

 

In that book, Russ outright talks about moderation when it comes to the Warp. I think there's also the possibility that when he talks about Magnus using impure powers he's singling him out rather than saying that all psykers apart from his are bad. With all this subsequent stuff about the soul of Fenris, there may be some truth to the former bit.

 

The one who actually tries to bring down the entire structure of the Librarius is Mortarion. His beef is with all psykers, merely seeing Magnus as the worst of them.

 

Finally, Prospero was not his gut. Prospero was the Emperor telling him to capture and then the infallible Warmaster telling him to slay a Primarch who had a ) seemingly allowed use of the Warp to the extreme extent of his sons becoming corrupted apparently had a spy placed among the Wolves and c) had his equerry, as far as anyone could tell, attack Wolves and Custodians while the Council was ongoing. Russ then tried to communicate with Magnus, getting no reply, and only then did he follow through with trying to annihilate the Legion.

People don't call Russ a hypocrite for going after Magnus at Nikaea, they call him a hypocrite for his actions on Prospero. The Emperor gave a blanket ban on psykers, but Russ kept using them because "ours are pure", ignoring that it's the same logic that Magnus himself uses. Sure, Russ believed in moderation for psykers, but it doesn't change the fact that he kept using them himself, because reasons. Sure, he was commanded to go by the Emperor, but he still agreed with the course as the consequence of breaking the Edict, something he himself is doing.

 

And all this because the Collected Visions decided to ruin the previous version, where "sorcery" was banned, but the Librarian Program accepted as a safe method of training psykers, of which the Rune Priests were included in, to being the Emperor, the most powerful psyker in the galaxy, saying "nu-uh, psykers are bad and should be not trained whatsoever, despite the fact that the Black Ships exist to remove the danger of untrained psykers and put them to good use. I am a smart genius."

I can’t believe I had forgotten that tidbit about sorcery!!!!

I’ve tended to be more sympathetic to the Thousand Sons, at least their more modern incarnation, than I ever aided with the furries, but man, it would be cool to see some sort of angle to the TS that really tipped their warp usage into ‘sorcerous’ territory, rather than being really good at being psychers instead.

I suppose the old lore is still correct, from a certain point of view. We the readers may see it as just finely honed psychic manipulation, but to the furries, and everyone else, it really did seem like something altogether different.

[bluntblade]

Magnus did use people as fuel for his attempt to reach the Emperor. Inferno also suggests that there was a rather sinister aspect to their powers. I suspect that McNeill may have given us a story told so much from inside their corner (with the exception of Lemuel's later views) that people just take the jealous brothers thing at face value.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, they do have the Tutelaries, which are essentially daemonic familiars, just under a different name and not recognised for what they really are. From memory, they vanish in the initial invasion of Prospero, and the Thousand Sons lose a lot of their psychic strength. Later on they return, and flood the Sons with power, and the Flesh Change runs rampant.

 

The issue I have is that previously the lore had the Emperor allow the Librarius as a safe, controlled way of training psychic Astartes, only censuring the Thousand Sons for going too far and dabbling in forbidden lore. Now though, after the setting repeatedly tells us that there's nothing more dangerous than untrained psykers, due to the risks of possession etc, the Emperor decides in his infinite wisdom to not have any psychic Astartes trained at all.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m getting a vibe Sanguinius May have been secretly glad to see him go.

[bluntblade]

Maybe in that Russ can be difficult to have around, but I don't think anyone slept more easily for knowing the Wolves weren't on Terra.

[TheRealMcCagh]

At that point, Sanguinius is all about fate and things being preordained. He probably realized Russ is not in any of his visions, and is resigned to him leaving Terra. He knows that no matter what, Horus will be above Terra. So Russ can pick which ever battle ground he wants, in the end it won't make much of a difference. Kind of like how Lorgar feels about Horus' and Erebus' plans at Signus Prime.

[bluntblade]

Side note. I see the Khan glowering when Sanguinius tells Russ to heed him because the Khan is most alike to him

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Basically Sanguinius knew that Russ would not matter in the final outcome so he just went with it being who he is.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I’m getting a vibe Sanguinius May have been secretly glad to see him go.

 

 

Basically Sanguinius knew that Russ would not matter in the final outcome so he just went with it being who he is.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cec8va-bZiU

 

 

Especially as the final outcome is directly influenced by the imminent arrival of the Dark Angels, Ultramarines and Wolves.

 

What makes this even funnier is that Sanguinius, who id debatedly locked into his fate, made moves to alter the Night Haunter's fate with his idea of punishment.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Sanguinius reflecting on Russ:

 

The Angel and the Wolf are more similar than they appear, thought Sanguinius. I am refined on the surface and savage within, Russ is the opposite.

 

 

But Russ IS the single greatest hypocrite on psyckers, i mean his whole arc with Magnus/psyckers/Nikea is a Russ=hypocrite .

 

Considering what happened the last time Russ was allowed to follow his gut ( Prospero) Dorn/Sanguinius/Jaghatai should have strapped him to a chair and beat some sense into him. 

 

Nothing i have read about Wolfsbane makes me understand Russ wasting the remains of the already wasted space wolf legion, other then he trusted his gut....his same gut that told him to trust Horus over Magnus. 

 

For me wolfsbane should have been about the wolves actually achieving something in the HH, something positive for their side. Something that makes it so its not just one mistake/defeat after another from prospero to the scouring.  

 

Actually, Russ following his gut is trying to reach out to his brother, twice. 
Russ following the orders (altered or not) resulted in the razing of Prospero.

 

And all this because the Collected Visions decided to ruin the previous version, where "sorcery" was banned, but the Librarian Program accepted as a safe method of training psykers, of which the Rune Priests were included in, to being the Emperor, the most powerful psyker in the galaxy, saying "nu-uh, psykers are bad and should be not trained whatsoever, despite the fact that the Black Ships exist to remove the danger of untrained psykers and put them to good use. I am a smart genius."

 

 

This change was the worst blunder for the BL HH series, in my mind. 

The Librarian vs Sorcerer made Prospero cut and dry, less up to...ambiguous elements of the story.

 

and because Nikea keeps coming up, here is 4 Primarchs discussing it:

 

 

 

Dorn: 'I think you are reckless. I think you are in danger of treading the same road as Magnus, or Lorgar, cavorting with priests. Where has your conviction gone? Where is the wolf who spoke at Nikaea?' 

 

This stung Russ, and his smile dropped. 'Nikaea was another trick. Another manipulation. Why do you think our enemies duped us into abandoning the Librarius? Why do you think I was tricked into killing Magnus?' 

 

You express regret for that now?' said Dorn. 'Last I heard you I were crowing about it.' 

 

'I have crowed. I do crow. I am proud of what I did. When attacked, Magnus resorted to powers he should never have unleashed, and he deserved what he got for that alone. But things could have been different. Horus lied to me because they fear the power of the warp. He feared Magnus' sorcery. It is what the enemy are. It is what will beat them.' 

 

Dorn sighed sadly, and looked down at his slate of plans. 'And that is Magnus talking.' 

 

Sanguinius roused himself from his miserable introspection. 'Do you believe you were wrong at Nikaea, Leman?' 'Perhaps,' said Russ honestly. 'But I was not wrong to call for Magnus' sanction, nor was I wrong to call for the suppression of the Librarius as it was. Who knows where Magnus' path would have led had he been let alone? He might have won the war, but would we then have had another Horus to contend with, or maybe two? The Librarius could have proven as poisonous as the thrice-damned lodges.' 

 

'The great proponent of the Nikaean edict, who kept his own sorcerers. You have many qualities, my brother,' said Dorn. 'I never thought to say hypocrisy was one.' 

 

'Is it? The priests of my Legion and the Stormseers of Jaghatai's are different to the Librarians that were. Our warriors draw on an older tradition. A limited tradition. Magnus did not believe in limits. That was his error.'  

 

'Similar traditions were outlawed by our father on every world,' said Dorn hotly. 

'We have seen where His close-mouthedness on the matter of the warp has got us,' Russ scoffed. Sanguinius made a silent gesture of agreement. 

 

'Leman is right,' said the Khan. 'Our seers do not draw directly on the warp. Their gifts are mediated. We know what limits are.' 

 

'Limits on power?' said Dorn. 'Power has no limits. Every morsel of power engenders more hunger. It is never satisfied. A man's soul needs to be a fortress.' 

 

'Not limits of power, Rogal,' said Jaghatai. 'Our limits are those of human wisdom. You look for enlightenment in the wrong place. Wisdom is the limit that must be observed.' 

 

'So now humility can tame the powers of the warp,' said Dorn. 'This is ridiculous.' 

'Humility is one of the ways,' said Jaghatai. 'Our father is a psyker, so is Sanguinius, and Malcador.' 

 

'The enemy fears the warp as much as they plunge themselves into it,' said Leman Russ. 'We must use it,' he held up his hands, 'safely, to help us win this war.' 

 

'I still name you hypocrite. How can you stand it, Jaghatai? He opposed you at Nikaea.'

 

'That was then, this is now Dwelling on the past will solve nothing,' said the Khan. 'We must stand united.'

 

 

at this point I'll stop quoting the book directly, if only to save something for future readers. Regardless of the books quality, it is quite revealing at time.

 

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

[Plaguecaster]

That really makes me like Dorn a lot more for that discussion between the four Primarchs, I'm not a huge fan of Russ or the wolves as even with that I still side with Magnus and his legion on the Nikaea edict but reading about the interaction between Primarchs and their forces seems pretty interesting plus I need some 30k novel to read so I can try forgetting the abomination that was the Ferrus manus Primarchs novel, this actually sounds like a good read even if it is about the Wolves

 

I am a bit curious on what vision the Angel had would of been if Russ stayed on Terra as whilst I do know the wolves return alongside the dark angels and Ultramarines was pivotal to ending the battle of Terra it still makes you wonder how the Wolves could of contributed to the siege as a forth legion defending it especially if Russ took part in the boarding of the Vengeful sprirt alongside the Emperor but of course it didn't happen like that so who knows

[Lord_Caerolion]

Ok, that's a good way to go towards handling the fallout of the change. They basically acknowledge the wrongness of the decision at Nikaea, that Magnus was still wrong, and make Russ look a lot better about it all rather than just a blatant hypocrite over the whole issue. Now he's accepted that he's doing hypocritical things based on his previous stance, but acknowledges that circumstances have changed since then.

 

Also, I love Dorn being absolutely pig-headed and arguing that "power corrupts" while unquestioningly following the Emperor, the most powerful psyker and architect of the biggest human empire in history.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Plaguecaster: I highly advise that you go out of your way to read the books about the legions that you do not like. For instance, if anybody told me that I would have sympathy for Khârn or fsadness at what happened to the word bearers prior to the black library series I would’ve laughed in their face. I genuinely like the 30k Ultramarines, Imperial Fists.

I see how Perturabo was doomed, not just the postman going apocalyptic on a galactic scale.

 

@Lord Caerolion: yea, I laughed when I first came across that.

The guy was ordering armies, heck entire planets, trillions of trillions of people to their doom based on his view of defense but still had the nerve, the pigheadedness, to call somebody else a hypocrite.

It’s actually a reassuring human action

[Lord_Caerolion]

Plus also hilarious that he has Astropaths amongst his closest advisors while preparing for the Siege. The Crusade, hell, the entire Imperium, depends on Astropaths and Navigators in order for it to function effectively, but he refuses to admit that there can be any way the Legions could utilise those powers as safely? Pot, meet kettle. :p

[karden00]

Side note. I see the Khan glowering when Sanguinius tells Russ to heed him because the Khan is most alike to him

 

Aye, I see it too, but it's just so juicy and fitting.

Of course he glowers, because even Sanguinius is susceptible to the same shallow reading of the Scars that everyone else is. 

[bluntblade]

Haley seems to write the Khan well. That's good to know.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Russ and Sanguinius are basically polar opposites as far as I’m concerned and Sanguinius never did anything he was later ashamed of having done.

[nagashnee]

 

 

 

But Russ IS the single greatest hypocrite on psyckers, i mean his whole arc with Magnus/psyckers/Nikea is a Russ=hypocrite .

 

Considering what happened the last time Russ was allowed to follow his gut ( Prospero) Dorn/Sanguinius/Jaghatai should have strapped him to a chair and beat some sense into him. 

 

Nothing i have read about Wolfsbane makes me understand Russ wasting the remains of the already wasted space wolf legion, other then he trusted his gut....his same gut that told him to trust Horus over Magnus. 

 

For me wolfsbane should have been about the wolves actually achieving something in the HH, something positive for their side. Something that makes it so its not just one mistake/defeat after another from prospero to the scouring.  

 

Actually, Russ following his gut is trying to reach out to his brother, twice. 

Russ following the orders (altered or not) resulted in the razing of Prospero.

 

 

Considering FW was kind enough to print out the edict the Emperor charged Russ with carrying out, no. We know Russ was given charge to do pretty much anything he sought fit, but his mission by the hand of the Emperor himself was black and white, bring back Magnus to Terra to stand trial and account for his actions.

 

Horus may have tricked him, but not even he had the authority to counter order Russ against the Emperor.

 

The bombing, combat drop, full scale planetary invasion and the rest is on Russ, hence the 'horus tricked me' part, he did not HAVE to do it, those weren't his orders, he was never fired upon, never threatened, heck he never even made contact ( or tried very hard to do so).  So yeah, i was ordered is simply not true, he could have walked into Magnus tower and slap the cuffs on, based on Magnus state at the time in every book i have read he would have been first in line on the repentance train, never mind resist. Magnus knew how much he screwed up just like Leman does in latter books. 

 

Russ and Sanguinius are basically polar opposites as far as I’m concerned and Sanguinius never did anything he was later ashamed of having done.

 

Yeah but we have barely seen Sanguinius in the heresy, from what little FW has show on the legion history we know he is full of regretful actions, based on how he made destroyer duty a rotation rather then dedicated duty, made his sons hide their faces when doing so, and regretted he could never do so himself. 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@BO: I’m sure that Emperor Sanguinius of the Imperium Secundus, the same guy who hide the flaw of the BA geneseed and only trusted in Horus, had a few skeletons in his closet.

 

@Nagashnee: I personally think your underestimating the power and trust given to the Warmaster, how his voice was seen as the the Emperor’s voice...but I can understand your point of view.

[bluntblade]

But also Horus said that along with altering Russ's orders, he convinced him that Magnus had done far worse than the offences Russ had been told to bring him in for. This is confirmed in A Thousand Sons when Amon and Magnus peer into the Wolves' fleet.

[Guest Triszin]

someone want to spoil me on the ERkling and what russ's real name might be and why?

[mc warhammer]

Russ and Sanguinius are basically polar opposites as far as I’m concerned and Sanguinius never did anything he was later ashamed of having done.

i’ve just started ruinstorm and sanguinius’ inner monologue so far has been “shame! (ring a bell) shame! (ring a bell) shame on me!”

[Indefragable]

Russ and Sanguinius are basically polar opposites as far as I’m concerned and Sanguinius never did anything he was later ashamed of having done.

 

I can no longer tell if you are trolling with some of these comments, or generally believe them. Which is worse I am not sure.

 

"Father, my sin is the greatest." (quoted from memory)

- Sanguinius, opening line of Ruinstorm

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sanguinuis was never a hot head and quite stoic imo. Sure he wasn’t perfect but none of them are. As far as flaws (DA, RG, SW, etc.) go I don’t remember any Primarch not trying to hide them, it’s par for the course.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Sanguinuis was never a hot head and quite stoic imo. Sure he wasn’t perfect but none of them are. As far as flaws (DA, RG, SW, etc.) go I don’t remember any Primarch not trying to hide them, it’s par for the course.

You don’t remember or you didnt read any?

Because you have discussed books with me twice now then later stated you actually haven’t read the book due to reasons