FAQ release today.

[Skorus]

I was feeling pretty low about my Malleus/gk/tempestus till i remembered these are only 'beta' rules...

 

=][= IGNORED =][=

 

Actually turned out a good day getting old smite back =)

 

(and gmndks surviving)

[Panzer]

Ok, just explain me one thing - which army had so strong alpha-deepstrike, so they decided to nerf it? Crisis Suits? Oblitarators/terminators? Death Company? Letterbomb? Were they more broken than screened gunline (that I personaly consider the main censer of 8th)? 

 

Actually alpha strike is a general problem of 40k this and other editions. It's good they're doing something about it, but I don't think that's the right way quite yet. Not while it's so easy to shoot units across the table and to swarm the board with huge cheap units to deny deep strike turn 2 and 3 as well unless you somehow manage to wipe half of the opponents army without your heavy hitters (aka reserves) on board.

[techsoldaten]

Cross posting this from another site.

 

Just playing Devil's Advocate here. But isn't there some addition by subtraction going on with the new FAQ?

The beta rules in the new FAQ affect everyone equally. Grey Knights can't deep strike turn one, but neither can your opponent. This affects GKs inordinately because of the lack of long range firepower.

However, you can now add assassins within a Vanguard detachment. Vinidcare assassins shoot 72 inches, can target characters, they hit and wound on a 2+, their weapons are AP-3 / Dd3 and they ignore invulnerable saves.

Sure, an opponent can get into position turn one and lay down some lascannon shots on a Land Raider or a Storm Raven. But we can now get first turn character kills, removing auras before we drop in to cause some damage. Then we can do it again the next turn because they are characters and can't be targeted unless they are the closest unit. With a CP reroll, the odds of getting 5+ wounds each turn is around 90%.

3 Vindicares are not cheap, but wouldn't this be an advantage, deep striking turn 2 against a softer force?

[Panzer]

Yeah the deep strike change definitely hits some armies harder than others. Armies like Astra Militarum (Scions are cheap and they have the range and firepower to clear some space to drop them turn 2-3), AdMech, other non-BA Marines etc. won't really notice much of a change except that there're less threats turn 1 to their gunline. Unless they play something exotic like a Terminator, Assault Marine or Drop Pod list of course.

 

About the Vindicares ... opponents with more drops (almost everyone for GK) will of course wait until you've deployed the Vindicares and then deploy their important characters out of LoS once they lost their characters a few times against such a list. There's also the chance of you encountering the same thing and then it's all about who's going to go first and then loses the sniper battle. It's a double edged sword, really.

[Gentlemanloser]

Vindicares are utter rubbish.

 

A squad of ratlings is cheaper and outperforms them.

[Holier Than Thou]

I posted on their Facebook asking them to just remove us from the game rather than find more and more ways for us to be at the very bottom of the pile. It was removed.

 

Admittedly, I did also state that the people responsible for the FAQ must be either incompetent idiots or they just genuinely hate the Grey Knights as a faction and asked which of these it was.

[Panzer]

I posted on their Facebook asking them to just remove us from the game rather than find more and more ways for us to be at the very bottom of the pile. It was removed.

 

Admittedly, I did also state that the people responsible for the FAQ must be either incompetent idiots or they just genuinely hate the Grey Knights as a faction and asked which of these it was.

 

inb4 you get banned from their page. :D

I never posted something that harsh there and still got a PM one day of them telling me to not insult their staff or they'd have to ban me from their page lol

[techsoldaten]

Vindicares are utter rubbish.

 

A squad of ratlings is cheaper and outperforms them.

 

Ratlings do not benefit from the CHARACTER keyword. They may be cheaper, but they are your only long-range unit. They will be bullet magnets at soon as someone notices. The assassins will not.

 

 

About the Vindicares ... opponents with more drops (almost everyone for GK) will of course wait until you've deployed the Vindicares and then deploy their important characters out of LoS once they lost their characters a few times against such a list. There's also the chance of you encountering the same thing and then it's all about who's going to go first and then loses the sniper battle. It's a double edged sword, really.

 

If you can force an opponent to put their warlord in a sub-optimal spot, that's gravy, because that's board control - something Grey Knights lack. If you can force someone to put their Sorcerer in a position where they can't cast psychic powers to the units that need them, or where their Chaos Lord can't buff as many units with an aura, you've done something good for your deep striking units arriving on turn 2.

 

You're still dishing out 5+ wounds on average. A target of opportunity will present itself. Just taking a Predator down to a lower tier has an impact on games.

[Gentlemanloser]

Believe me, I've run triple vindis a few times. (Ive got three lovely snipers)

 

They do nothing. And are largely ignored.

 

Waste of points and don't control anything.

[Corvus Fortis]

I faced 4 Vindicares once. They barely stratched my characters. 1's to-hit, 1's to-wound, 5+ save, 1's on damage... A lot of moments, where an assassin can fail. Maybe, it is luck, but rifle scouts squads annoyed me way more.

 

And the main problem about new reserves rule is not the fact, that we must hold for a turn. Now there is a limit in PL to what we can put there. And the spreading screen makes everything even worse. 

[techsoldaten]

Believe me, I've run triple vindis a few times. (Ive got three lovely snipers)

 

They do nothing. And are largely ignored.

 

Waste of points and don't control anything.

 

Would love to know more. The reason I cited them is the fact they no longer cost command points to use, which makes them more attractive.

 

Hitting on a 2+, wounding on a 2+, ignoring cover saves, AP -3, 72 inch range, d3 wounds per shot, characters, only 90 points - that sounds good on paper. I would be glad to have 3 of those for a few turns per game.

[Gentlemanloser]

You see the downside when they're faced with minus to hit and they only do 1 damage if not saved.

 

8th is all about rof. Single heavy shots are practically worthless.

 

Edit. They never cost cp. You didn't take them in aux detachments, but in vanguards with an inq or other cheap hq.

[techsoldaten]

You see the downside when they're faced with minus to hit and they only do 1 damage if not saved.

 

8th is all about rof. Single heavy shots are practically worthless.

 

Edit. They never cost cp. You didn't take them in aux detachments, but in vanguards with an inq or other cheap hq.

 

Dunno. Chaos is my main army, they have plenty of volume shots but the lack of snipers is often a problem.

 

Compared to 10 Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters (which have no AP), 3 Vindicares will probably average more damage to an individual model. A 3+ to hit is still good, and it's always possible to pick another target.

 

Just looking for the bright side in today's FAQ. This is an option that wasn't available before, now it is, and maybe it sets up a better turn 2 deep strike.

[Gentlemanloser]

Its always been an option.

 

Now its 55 points cheaper at the cost of 1cp.

 

There's no upside.

 

And The other sins have been significantly nerfed. No more culexes up front tanking hits and messing with enemy psykers.

 

Heck the sins can't even embark *any* transport. So they're left footslogging.

[Ichar]

Under the change to deepstrikes, and I quote:

 

​" Note that we have not applied this restriction to Genestealer Cults or abilities and Stratagems employed by armies such as Raven Guard – the opportunity to deploy units en masse after deployment is a central part of the design of these armies."

 

Okay, fair enough.  But doesn't our best (and really only viable) tactic require alpha-strike?

 

And now that they removed "Imperium" as a usable army keyword, I can no longer take Scions as "Imperial Stortmtroopers" to bolster my low numbers and command points.

 

I wish GW would tell us what they expect us to do, or how to play our army to be successful.  If there is a secret only they know, I sure wish they would share...
 

[BrotherAetherick]

 

And now that they removed "Imperium" as a usable army keyword, I can no longer take Scions as "Imperial Stortmtroopers" to bolster my low numbers and command points.

 

 

You can still take scions in a separate astra militarum detachment (which you would have done anyways, otherwise you would have lost brotherhood of psykers and obj sec). It's just that you can't use Imperium as a keyword for a single detachment.

[Ichar]

 

 

And now that they removed "Imperium" as a usable army keyword, I can no longer take Scions as "Imperial Stortmtroopers" to bolster my low numbers and command points.

 

 

You can still take scions in a separate astra militarum detachment (which you would have done anyways, otherwise you would have lost brotherhood of psykers and obj sec). It's just that you can't use Imperium as a keyword for a single detachment.

 

Ahhh.  In my anger I missed that.  I was just looking at it again, and it says:

 

 

 

 

Does this not mean that all of the units in the army (in all of the detachments) must share a Faction Keyword in order to remain Battleforged?  I thought that is what it meant to stop players from using multiple different army's units.  Just asking because I am still confused.  And wouldn't it still be soup with 3 detachments, for example Blood Angels, Adeptus Mechanicus, and Astra Militarum?

[Mr. Shine]

Does this not mean that all of the units in the army (in all of the detachments) must share a Faction Keyword in order to remain Battleforged? I thought that is what it meant to stop players from using multiple different army's units. Just asking because I am still confused. And wouldn't it still be soup with 3 detachments, for example Blood Angels, Adeptus Mechanicus, and Astra Militarum?

It says it doesn't affect your Army Faction, which is the requirement to have one shared Faction Keyword across all units. Only units within each Detachment must share a Faction Keyword other than IMPERIUM etc. so it's largely ineffective in combating soup lists.

[Beams]

 

Does this not mean that all of the units in the army (in all of the detachments) must share a Faction Keyword in order to remain Battleforged? I thought that is what it meant to stop players from using multiple different army's units. Just asking because I am still confused. And wouldn't it still be soup with 3 detachments, for example Blood Angels, Adeptus Mechanicus, and Astra Militarum?

It says it doesn't affect your Army Faction, which is the requirement to have one shared Faction Keyword across all units. Only units within each Detachment must share a Faction Keyword other than IMPERIUM etc. so it's largely ineffective in combating soup lists.

It helps. It stops people from just throwing Celestine in their lists, or doing a Super heavy of Magnus, Mortarion and a Knight, or taking one crazy inperium detachment to fill all their gaps, like Primaris Psyker, Space Marine Junpack Librarian, Astropath, Sisters Of Silence, Sisters of Silence.

[Gaz1858]

The "soup" lists this prohibits are ones where a Detachment was made up of units from multiple dexes. BA Squad, with a DA Flyer and some Ultramarine Tacs etc. You can still have all these just in separate detachments rather than all together. Not sure how many people were running this style of army but fair enough.

 

As for GK the issue seems to be no clarity (yet) on how the Deep Strike rule affects GOI and Shunting. Now potentially our FAQ was waiting to see what the results of this were and then update. Or we may just need to seek clarification for any tourneys prior to submitting lists. The rule of three doesnt hurt us too much, more than some others due to our lack of units, but still not too much.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

I posted on their Facebook asking them to just remove us from the game rather than find more and more ways for us to be at the very bottom of the pile. It was removed.

Admittedly, I did also state that the people responsible for the FAQ must be either incompetent idiots or they just genuinely hate the Grey Knights as a faction and asked which of these it was.

 

 

inb4 you get banned from their page. :D

I never posted something that harsh there and still got a PM one day of them telling me to not insult their staff or they'd have to ban me from their page lol

Well, yeah okay that helped no one, especially us GK players...while our situation is crummy, a valid question now to GW rule makers could just as easily be "do they hate GK...players", if you insult them like that well...let's hope none of the major faq guys saw that before the PR staff deleted it.

[Soder]

This is really disappointing. *Nom, nom, nom* <- I’m officially eating my words. Sorry for putting my trust in GW guys. I was 100% sure we wouldn’t get left out of an update this time around. Looks like I was dead wrong. Time to spam their email! Not even one codex specific change.. I can’t believe it

[Stormxlr]

Does Gate of Infinity fall under new DS rule?

[STTAB]

Really poor. Really heavy handed.

 

I've started a thread on the DS rule in the beta rules section.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346314-deep-strike-beta-rule/?do=findComment&comment=5057794

[Holier Than Thou]

 

 

I posted on their Facebook asking them to just remove us from the game rather than find more and more ways for us to be at the very bottom of the pile. It was removed.

Admittedly, I did also state that the people responsible for the FAQ must be either incompetent idiots or they just genuinely hate the Grey Knights as a faction and asked which of these it was.

 

inb4 you get banned from their page. :D

I never posted something that harsh there and still got a PM one day of them telling me to not insult their staff or they'd have to ban me from their page lol

Well, yeah okay that helped no one, especially us GK players...while our situation is crummy, a valid question now to GW rule makers could just as easily be "do they hate GK...players", if you insult them like that well...let's hope none of the major faq guys saw that before the PR staff deleted it.

Come on, do you honestly think it makes any difference what was posted?

 

If they truly believe GKs didn't need a major overhaul, nevermind any, any changes whatsoever, then there is no hope. We have all given feedback, we have all been ignored. A slightly derogatory message on Facebook is hardly going to matter.

 

I've given up now, they obviously don't give a flying :cuss about Grey Knights and anyone who can't see that now, after this debacle, must be delusional.