2018 Big FAQ - how will it affect your list?

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I think that it wasn’t only option, but good idea to lovk in combat some of units that shoot you off the board.

 

I think that nothing beside bobbyG/devatators spam is strong enough to shoot with tau/guard without some early CC support And distraction. And that was DS was for.

[justicarius6]

How is that the case? What army are you playing that a Turn 1 deepstrike into melee was your best and only option?

 

Yes, Kraken Genestealers got buffed. On the brightside, you're not going to be hit with 24 Devilgants coming out of a hole next to a Trygon Prime on Turn 1 and picking up a unit for your dead pile.

I play Ultramarines (occasionally dabble with Inquisition), which is why I'm in this thread and commenting. I had been trying out new options and tactics as the gunbubble is so dull and boring and doesn't suit my view of marines being an elite striking force. Now anything we have that deepstrikes may as well be relegated to the bin.

 

As I said, right now "to compete" these changes re-inforce the gunline bubble as the main option for marines if they want to do damage.

[MeltaRange]

I guess what I'm not really seeing overall here is what you're missing out on after the new beta rules...its only prohibiting Turn 1 striking.  Are you dropping down a lot of Inceptors or Pistol Vanguards in the opponent's face?  Are you trying to assault them?  Jump Pack Librarians?  Captain with Shield Eternal and Imperium's Sword?  

[justicarius6]

Why does it have to be "a lot" of anything? There used to be viable reasons to take some deepstrikers with marines, now there isn't.

[BrotherAetherick]

Stupid of me to not wait for the FAQ, but I'm seriously regretting buying a Fire Raptor a week ago..

[ERJAK]

I guess what I'm not really seeing overall here is what you're missing out on after the new beta rules...its only prohibiting Turn 1 striking.  Are you dropping down a lot of Inceptors or Pistol Vanguards in the opponent's face?  Are you trying to assault them?  Jump Pack Librarians?  Captain with Shield Eternal and Imperium's Sword?  

Inceptors used to be dropped pretty often. Not no more tho.

[MeltaRange]

Why does it have to be "a lot" of anything? There used to be viable reasons to take some deepstrikers with marines, now there isn't.

 

I just don't get the sweeping generalization that in order for a deep striking unit to be viable, it has to come down turn 1 outside your deployment zone.  I am quite often bringing stuff down Turn 2.  Prime example is my Vanguard Vet squad of 5 TH + Grav Pistols, who are designed to cause max damage to a vital unit.  I often can't get to my target until I clear out some chaff and also get Tigurius in position for Veil of Time.  My experience is that people much of the time want to bring their stuff down Turn 1 so they can do as much damage as possible so as to not be alpha'ed themselves.  I'm hoping that the end result of this rule is that there's less pressure to bring a devastating alpha strike because you're in less danger yourself of eating crippling damage from your opponent in Turn 1. 

 

I also believe that there will be new tactics to be employed to that will make this less miserable.  Basic example off the top of my head: Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with 2x Twin Heavy Bolters.  6 less shots as compared to an Inceptor Squad, but double the range and a much tougher chassis.  

 

EDIT: also, some armies like Kraken Stealers, or Cultist Slaanesh Alpha Legion, you can actually get away with bringing down your reserves in your deployment zone anyway.

[redmapa]

Reivers are now even more useless than before, no mobility, only relied on DS to tie up chaff and other stuff to help your other assault elements get into range. Now I honestly dont see the point of playing a chapter thats shoehorned into close combat when you have to build a gunline to be effective, I just dont see why I have to suffer a nerf just so the tournament meta doesnt have a hard time with Alpha strikes, if GW thinks my army or GK are expendable to further that meta then at least they could be open about it.

 

Why would I ever deep strike anything when by turn 2 my opponent can flood the middle of the board? At that point its far more effective to simply weather the storm and charge and that allows me to engineer better charge ranges than 9" which lowers the relevancy of the Black Templar CT since I dont :cussing need a reroll and the fact that I need to risk my units for a lower reward (since they hit like hot farts) is more of an incentive to play gunlines, except I have no buffs for shooting and all my units and character are geared for combat. God damn it, its not like this army was any good in this game but now its just as dead as they were in 7th, this isnt a benefit to it and I dont understand why I deserve this nerf to a dumpster tier army.

 

So whats the positive? I cant see anything and the future FAQs will just keep taking the tournament meta in and ignoring the armies that will eventually get hit as collateral damage for whatever nerf they might apply, because if the top armies are hit hard by this then the same crap armies are hit even harder.

[Race Bannon]

If they "flood" mid-field, are not they opening up the rear flank?

[MeltaRange]

If they "flood" mid-field, are not they opening up the rear flank?

 

:)

 

What's happening in this thread is that people are combining all of the possible negative effects and presenting it in a manner that makes it seem like that's the "normal way things happen".  Again, something I'm guilty of and something that's very hard not to do if you're upset about the change.

[jpwyrm]

Edit : this was meant as a reply to Race's comment. Quote don't work on mobile...

 

 

My thoughts exactly. The nerf to turn 1 drop alpha strike is sad for a lot of SM lists, but it's not the end either. I think we need to take stock, analyse our options and adapt to this change in battlefield conditions - exactly as Astartes should do.

 

Maybe there is not point in keeping strong hammer units in reserve anymore. But then, it can be argued that some units might come in handy later in game. Assault squads comes to mind, maybe even scouts/tactical marines in a drop pod (!!!) for late game contesting/seizing objective or scoring line breaker. We need to see this as an obstacle to overcome, not as an attack on our playstyle.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Meltarange. In my opinion you are wrong 1turn DS is very inportant for CC oriented army. If you face Tau for example, or guard And you will go second. You have 1 turn on film shooting. (Probably I’ll hide from LoS), then he have 2 turn And ca spread huge screen with kroots, or other cheap troop. And shoot me Again. And then i can deep strike my units. Half of a board is screened So it is even more impossible go land And charge backline, And I’ve Lost one turn hiding from shooting storm. Not to mentioned about units that don’t need LoS... . Some armies just need 1 turn deep strike to live on turn 2+.

And shooty armies, before changes needed to Put units carefully because They knew that DS is coming. And that was good. Now They know that They have one or two free shooting turns

 

Jpwyrm. Yes you have Right. But some chapters are CC oriented And our benefits are Lost when we can’t use alpha strike.

 

Some changes are good but This change goes to far. Maby -2 to hit when fireing after deepstrike?.

 

I think that major problem was shooty DS, but They annihilated choppy DS as well

[Panzer]

If they "flood" mid-field, are not they opening up the rear flank?

 

Depending on the army it's entirely possible to "flood" the mid-field without opening the flanks. Keep in mind that each unit can be 18" away from eachother without leaving spots for reserves. ^^

 

We'll see how it'll play out but it definitely shifts the power more towards shooty horde lists and away from more elite lists which is pretty much the exact wrong direction since the balance is already tipped towards hordes anyway.

And yeah it makes Reiver even worse. Just like any other unit that relies on reserve. It's just that Reivers have a very close competitor with Intercessors in the same army (I actually think Intercessors are better anyway but meh I don't want to give up on Reiver completely just yet).

[Brother Captain Ed]

Not necessarily.

 

Lots of effective gunlines have the bodies to get the area denial forward pretty far while covering the backfield with the larger guns (often by simply deploying with it in mind and just not moving).

 

Edit: was replying to Race but got uber ninja'd.

[redmapa]

So what are the options for a melee centric force in this codex that has zero support for melee, zero buffs for a gunline and no way to keep the best gunline from shelling all my deployment zone from turn 1? You know how I used Alpha strikes? To tar pit those things, now I have zero defense against and its not like I was hitting hard anyway so now I have zero attacks agaisnt it, which translates to "Dont bother playing a melee marine army thats not BA" which was the case before but this is just the final nail in the coffin that GW has been building for Black Templars since 6th edition.

 

As for the rearguard deep strike? Yeah maybe, but then Im not defending my deployment zone or offering my assault units that have to be in a rhino any form of defence against shooting or faster and better assault units. Even then its quite easy to simply open deep strike areas that make your deep strike units irrelevant, disregarding terrain you can simply flood the first 6-8" of the middle and your deep striking units will basically need to deploy on the edge of your deployment zone while your opponent can spread his infantry or vehicles so as to not leave any area open except the sides which again make those unit irrelevant as they will not hit hard enough to clear anything expendable that was left on the edges

[Race Bannon]

It seems to me, anything is possible .. but what is probable?   I'm hard-pressed to accept that every opponent will maintain sufficient numbers to block DS for more than three turns.

 

So, if patience is a virtue, then maybe waiting is the way to win?

 

See that alliteration?  I worked on that ^_^

[Aegir_Einarsson]

If you deploy lets say 9” from your Table edge you have First turn you move six, So you have 9+6+9=25” in First turn. In your second turn you can move Again, or drop your DS to spread it even more. This is nearly half of the Table... Where my assault CC units shoul land there?

 

40 cultists, max u its of conscripts/tzangors/poxwalkers can make it easly.

[Race Bannon]

Cool.  So, if I'm up against cultists, then don't DS because they can block that strat.  Solved.

 

:tu:

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Brilliant idea.... . If you can’t solve the problem take bigger hammer type of thinking. Or it was Irony?

[redmapa]

It seems to me, anything is possible .. but what is probable?   I'm hard-pressed to accept that every opponent will maintain sufficient numbers to block DS for more than three turns.

 

So, if patience is a virtue, then maybe waiting is the way to win?

 

See that alliteration?  I worked on that

 

Again, without being able to deep strike I have no defense and waiting is just asking to get pummeled by whatever gunline as he takes over the board and 50% of my army does nothing, waits to do nothing and then hits and does nothing. At least Blood Angels can do that but it still is far better to put everything on board and start clearing chaff because if Im deep striking stuff then I have 2-3 turns to clear chaff AND the important units.

 

See, this is a bigger problem, its the problem of the crap armies having options removed while the top armies can still work, I cant, its impossible because I cant tar pit certain units, I cant defend against shooting and it all makes my assaults riskier but less rewarding which in turn makes my army even more irrelevant than before, this isnt balance but I guess it doesnt matter because no one gives a flying turd if its not the tournament scene.

[Race Bannon]

@ Aegir, Yes.

 

No wait, no.

 

I dunno.

 

Maybe.

 

Sure.

 

 

EDIT - @redmapa - there were a lot of absolutes there.  Nothing.  Impossible.  Irrelevant.  Can't.  I'm sorry the game is ruined now ... or is it?  I can't speak for everyone but I have not played the game since yesterday.  I still feel confident (without direct experience yet), that this is not as bad as it seems.

 

I'm not trying to White Knight GW here, yet I'm am trying to suggest that if the only constant in the universe is change, then we should figure out a way to adapt to this new normal.  You darn tootin' tournamenters are going to figure a way because the options for them are either play another army, don't play tournaments or quit?

[MARK0SIAN]

It seems to me, anything is possible .. but what is probable? I'm hard-pressed to accept that every opponent will maintain sufficient numbers to block DS for more than three turns.

 

So, if patience is a virtue, then maybe waiting is the way to win?

 

See that alliteration? I worked on that ^_^

But the point is they don’t have to block DS for 3 or more turns against melee units. You can’t do it on turn 1 anywhere useful, if they can block it sufficiently on turn two (entirely feasible for a horde army) then you can’t arrive anywhere useful till turn three. Given the odds of a 9 inch charge you’re not likely to be in combat till turn 4.

 

Now I’ve yet to have a game in 8th edition that went beyond turn 3 in any meaningful way. Especially against a shooting/gunline army.

[redmapa]

@ Aegir, Yes.

 

No wait, no.

 

I dunno.

 

Maybe.

 

Sure.

 

 

EDIT - @redmapa - there were a lot of absolutes there.  Nothing.  Impossible.  Irrelevant.  Can't.  I'm sorry the game is ruined now ... or is it?  I can't speak for everyone but I have not played the game since yesterday.  I still feel confident (without direct experience yet), that this is not as bad as it seems.

 

I'm not trying to White Knight GW here, yet I'm am trying to suggest that if the only constant in the universe is change, then we should figure out a way to adapt to this new normal.  You darn tootin' tournamenters are going to figure a way because the options for them are either play another army, don't play tournaments or quit?

 

I dont play in tournaments, thats the other thing because this will certainly screw over GK and BT, both armies that havent touched a tournament since forever. So now I have to change armies because I have no defense against shooting? Im not even giving you some weird example, I've been trying to make this army work since the beginning of this editon, Ive been optimistic about it and then this happens, so now Im stuck with a useless chapter tactic, a bunch of useless characters and no defense against, say, 3 basilisk and 3 manticores.

 

HOW DO I ADAPT, WHEN THE ONLY WAY TO DO SO IS TO FOCUS SHOOTING, I HAVE NO CHARACTERS THAT WANT TO BUFF A GUNLINE, WHY WOULD I BUILD A GUNLINE WHEN THE CHAPTER TACTIC IS TO ASSAULT.

 

So trust me, it is as bad as it seems unless you have some magic knowledge of this army that Im unaware of.

 

You all seem to have it all figured out but you dont understand the frustration of being in the bottom of the barrel of your own codex, of being for the past ten years and now having to get nerfed for no reason. Like holy hell, you tell me what do I do against a gunline that can fire at me since turn 1 while I cant touch it until turn 2-3. Transports? Expensive and thats less bodies, less attacks and less firepower.

 

So I guess Im only left with quitting because I cant see any options as they have been taken away and I was already struggling making a mediocre assault army in a codex that doesnt support the playstyle at all

[MeltaRange]

Meltarange. In my opinion you are wrong 1turn DS is very inportant for CC oriented army. If you face Tau for example, or guard And you will go second. You have 1 turn on film shooting. (Probably I’ll hide from LoS), then he have 2 turn And ca spread huge screen with kroots, or other cheap troop. And shoot me Again. And then i can deep strike my units. Half of a board is screened So it is even more impossible go land And charge backline, And I’ve Lost one turn hiding from shooting storm. Not to mentioned about units that don’t need LoS... . Some armies just need 1 turn deep strike to live on turn 2+.

And shooty armies, before changes needed to Put units carefully because They knew that DS is coming. And that was good. Now They know that They have one or two free shooting turns

 

Jpwyrm. Yes you have Right. But some chapters are CC oriented And our benefits are Lost when we can’t use alpha strike.

 

Some changes are good but This change goes to far. Maby -2 to hit when fireing after deepstrike?.

 

I think that major problem was shooty DS, but They annihilated choppy DS as well

 

That's a fair stance and you might end up being right.  I guess what I'm surprised about is that people were using straight up melee units to charge into screens like Kroot, Pathfinders, Skitarii, Guard Infantry, whatever.  My method was typically to shoot those away while trying to maneuver to position, then bring down the hammer.  Of course, I often made turn 1 charges depending on the situation.  And I used Inceptors a lot for screen clearing.

 

I'm just considering this a first step in toning down alpha strikes.  It could well be this completely makes the game about turn 1 long range shooting to maintain the alpha strike...which would also be less than ideal.  I'm not some undercover guard players sent here, I promise!

[Aegir_Einarsson]

No offence:).

 

Paradoxically Raven Guard is better CC option than BT

SFtS bolter agressors And If you go First you can move, clear the screen And then charge With pfist attacks.

Or even take some aggressors And assault terminators with Chaplain or captain. And They can make easier charge than most CC (in theory) BT, because we can’t make First turn charge anymore. And that is frustritng.

All An all there are just beta rules And Maby we can’t see any advantages of those changes yet?