2018 Big FAQ - how will it affect your list?

[Panzer]

Maybe GW will eventually give our preds the vehicle squasron rule as well. I don't see a reason why russ can have it but not preds. It's not like we could abuse it with our more than three times as expensive line infantry anyway.

[Laughingman]

Technically you can still take six Predators in a list, three regular Predators and three Demos Predators (a Elites choice for some reason)... 

 

lore wise the days of massed astartes armored warfare ended with the breaking of legion... Most modern chapters Likely  don't have the numbers (you need infantry to back up the tanks) or logistical supply chain (You need fuel and ammunition for that thirsty Predator)  to truly take to the field in massed armored formations. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Really? Because the defense of Medusa during the 13th Black Crusade consisted of the Iron Hands versus traitor Guard and is described in multiple sources as the largest tank battle in Imperial history since Tallarn.

[Panzer]

The Blood Angels deployed lots of armor against the Tyranids (before they reached Baal) as well. ^^

[HighMarshalAmp]

After reading all the comments of disappointed BT Players and as a BT Player to be, I gotta ask:

Why are BT CC lists not viable anymore? I just don't see it!

Maybe you can explain to me why this has ruined all your lists, but right now, I think it's as follows:

 

Now Hammernators without Alpha Strike suck, granted, but apart from them?

 

You source of DSs were either Terminators or Drop Pods or Jump Packs, and everything in a Drop Pod most probably ain't melee oriented.

That leaves Jump Packs, which give you a whopping 12" of movement before the Charge.

 

Now bear with me: what if you didn't drop them into Charge range, what if you moved them there?

Just deploy them at the front (behind a line of Crusaders if you must), move them 12", charge, smash - and then you're out in the field running, but DS wouldn't have prevented that.

 

The enemy is more than 12"+charge away, you say?

They why, as some have said, would an Alpha Strike be, as some have put it, the only way to survive?

Just deploy your Jump Packs at the front.

They move towards you - let them come! - and if they get in shooting range, they'll probably shoot. You should have cannon fodder to eat that now, but even DS means you gotta have 50% of your guys on the field, so some fodder you gotta have.

 

A question right here: all the Alpha Strike armies did have These 50%, right? What on earth are your 50% if an Alpha Strike of the other 50% is the only way you can survive?

 

Then the enemies are in shooting range - that's 24" away in most cases, probably less.

Move 12", charge, smash.

 

That's if they are within shooting range and have flooded the midfield, and it means they're close enough for you to wreck.

Sure, you might not catch all of them, but who are you kidding, an Alpha Strike wouldn't have eradicated everything that could return fire the next turn anyway!

 

If they're not within shooting range now, they haven't flooded the field. They can't shoot you. It's your turn after that. This is the only time a first turn DS would come in handy - but the enemy has already wasted a turn as far as carnage and killing are concerned!

They might have grabbed some objectives, now you go grab some!

Maybe move your cannon fodder further up the field and shoot some enemies if any get into range.

 

Ok, now this, the enemies second turn if they went first, this is where it hurts to not have Alpha Striked. At least 50% of your forces are sitting there being shot at (Yep, in 40k, the other player gets to shoot back. I don't like it either.)

 

Either you have determined these 50% by points or by PL.

If it's PL, abuse the hell out of PL and load the fodder up with shields.

If it's points and your cannon fodder is too weak to last one turn against the enemy, then your Melee force, which is at max as string as your fodder, is some weak-sauce Melee force as well!

 

And after that's done, you can charge, because if they could shoot you, you can most probably move 12" and charge them now.

Or they're further away that 12"+charge, but then what's keeping you from DSing that turn?

 

So even as a CC army, you gotta have cannon fodder and if you don't use the points you have to spend on them, then that's your fault.

Sure, 1st turn annihilation by Alpha Strike would've been nice, but not getting that doesn't make a whole army bad, does it?

 

 

That's how I think BT will play...

What part have I gotten wrong?

[justicarius6]

Really? Because the defense of Medusa during the 13th Black Crusade consisted of the Iron Hands versus traitor Guard and is described in multiple sources as the largest tank battle in Imperial history since Tallarn.

This is also an example of a fluff battle that would fall under narrative games and rules.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

As i can agree with some of your points, you lose one major thing. If you facing guard, or tau or even necrons or 10+ hive guard And other shooty army they can always shoot at you without movement. And earlier it was one turn of shooting, If They go First, No They have additional turn for doing This. And that is a difference. I don’t know Why all of you think that we make mindless throw everything via DS. In my opinion alpha strike was something that should prevent your shooty oponent from shooting you second turn without concequences.

But on the bright side then. I thought about mechanizing assault beeing back. Few razors with bike captain going First turn advance And pop smoke isn’t that bad at all now. As we don’t need to Care as much for screening. What you guys think about that?

[MeltaRange]

As i can agree with some of your points, you lose one major thing. If you facing guard, or tau or even necrons or 10+ hive guard And other shooty army they can always shoot at you without movement. And earlier it was one turn of shooting, If They go First, No They have additional turn for doing This. And that is a difference. I don’t know Why all of you think that we make mindless throw everything via DS. In my opinion alpha strike was something that should prevent your shooty oponent from shooting you second turn without concequences.

But on the bright side then. I thought about mechanizing assault beeing back. Few razors with bike captain going First turn advance And pop smoke isn’t that bad at all now. As we don’t need to Care as much for screening. What you guys think about that?

 

Those types of armies are very good, but they also struggle very much against armies that also have long range shooting, lots of bodies, and minus to hit.

 

I feel for the BT players, but you do have the tools to adapt.  If you play against these armies a lot, take a nice fire-base of 2 Whirlwinds and a TFC.  You can hide these out of LOS and play them at their own game.  And now, that fire-base doesn't have to worry about Melta-Scions dropping down Turn 1 and blowing up your tanks!

[d36williams]

 

One thing I am looking forward to however is not having to face an army with 5 Leman Russes again!

 

 

I have bad news for you, one can fit 9 Leman Russes into the new 3 Data Slate rule because of Squadrons

[Ebon Hand]

After reading all the comments of disappointed BT Players and as a BT Player to be, I gotta ask:

Why are BT CC lists not viable anymore? I just don't see it!

Maybe you can explain to me why this has ruined all your lists, but right now, I think it's as follows:

 

I've played many games of 8th vs strong armies like Chaos, Deathguard, Eldar, and Imperial Guard.

 

The answers to your question will differ with the army you face, but I'll try to address some of the more general concerns.

 

The answers to your question will differ with the army you face, but I'll try to address some of the more general concerns.

 

Now Hammernators without Alpha Strike suck, granted, but apart from them?

Assault Terminators (not just hammers) are one of our hard hitting units that don't break the bank. Losing them on turn 1 is a huge blow to our ability to address big threats like Knights, Baneblade variants, Riptides and Greater Deamons/Deamons Princes with assault.

 

Especially us non primaris users have been using them a lot since 8th dropped.

 

You source of DSs were either Terminators or Drop Pods or Jump Packs, and everything in a Drop Pod most probably ain't melee oriented.

That leaves Jump Packs, which give you a whopping 12" of movement before the Charge.

Drop pods are expensive, this reserves change makes them all but useless. Terminators are fairly expensive and the ability to teleport in and put pressure was what made them worthwhile in most cases. Now they are relegated to Land Raiders which makes them a huge target, or a chunk of your points is delayed.

 

Assault Marines are overpriced for their cost (if they bring jump packs) because of their low attack value and lack of cc weapon options. Vanguards, while good, are expensive when you have to give them special weapons to have any meaningful punch vs anything that isn't t3 5+sv. The thing is that you can advance up the field, you are advancing into their guns. With deep strike, you were in more control of your engagement. You could gamble the 9 inch charge if the situation called for it, or you could wait till turn 2, or you could just drop behind your front line and advance as you say. Even then, after your charge, the opponent could just fall back and shoot them.

 

With the beta rules, the urgent charge is no longer an option. Options you lose are options your opponent gains. Your uphill battle becomes steeper.

 

Now bear with me: what if you didn't drop them into Charge range, what if you moved them there?

Just deploy them at the front (behind a line of Crusaders if you must), move them 12", charge, smash - and then you're out in the field running, but DS wouldn't have prevented that.

You assume that this wasn't something we already do. This is always an option that gets used by savvy players in the right situation.

 

The enemy is more than 12"+charge away, you say?

They why, as some have said, would an Alpha Strike be, as some have put it, the only way to survive?

Just deploy your Jump Packs at the front.

They move towards you - let them come! - and if they get in shooting range, they'll probably shoot. You should have cannon fodder to eat that now, but even DS means you gotta have 50% of your guys on the field, so some fodder you gotta have.

Suppose you have a Land Raider Crusader with your main assault punch in it. And the enemy a predator just out of line of sight, waiting for it to approach. That predator is a high level threat and you need it neutralized asap. Advancing up the field to assault it is not a viable option. You won't get to it in 1 turn, which means if you get the first turn they will get a turn to deal damage to your Land Raider and/or your Assault Marines. If they get first turn, they will likely get 2 turns to shoot you, as you are having to start as far forward as you can and there may not be cover for you.

 

A question right here: all the Alpha Strike armies did have These 50%, right? What on earth are your 50% if an Alpha Strike of the other 50% is the only way you can survive?

Multiple deep strikers improve your odds significantly. It isn't about survival, it's about dictating the terms of the fight. Why do we use close combat? What are the advantages? You block enemy movement, you mitigate shooting, you get extra movement from the assault so you possibly have a head start on advancing to enemies on objectives.

 

In every other aspect of the game, shooting has the edge. Longer range, overwatch, splitting fire to multiple units, can move in different directions and still maintain damage, don't have to worry about attacks back. AND you can still assault!

 

Then the enemies are in shooting range - that's 24" away in most cases, probably less.

Move 12", charge, smash.

If only it were so simple. The dangerous units have ranges higher than 24. Devestators, Basilisks, Leman Russes, Predators, Riptides, Hellblasters.

 

This also assumed they foolishly deployed on the line. The enemy is no fool, they know what you intend to do with your swords. They can pre measure everything. They will deploy exactly where they need to get the most shooting they can before you make it.

 

Sure, you might not catch all of them, but who are you kidding, an Alpha Strike wouldn't have eradicated everything that could return fire the next turn anyway!

Exactly, the opponent won't make it easy for you, which is why we need every option at our disposal.

 

So even as a CC army, you gotta have cannon fodder and if you don't use the points you have to spend on them, then that's your fault.

Sure, 1st turn annihilation by Alpha Strike would've been nice, but not getting that doesn't make a whole army bad, does it?

 

That's how I think BT will play...

What part have I gotten wrong?

Space Marines don't have any cannon fodder. The closest is scouts, and they're not exactly dirt cheap (although they are really good). This is why you see a large majority of tournament Marine armies allying in Imperial Guard platoons. First turn annihilation with deep strike was never a thing, at least for codex Space Marines. If someone got demolished by deepstrike, it almost certainly was good rolling and/or a mistake by the player.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Agree. 

[d36williams]

Marines to non-marine players are known for their 13 point bodies toting 25 point weapons (or 12 pts now on the power fist). What do ya'll think of what I'd call purely defensive units? Units that just eat shots but when you lose them you don't lose your armies offense? Drop Pods, Rhinos mainly. 

 

When Smite Spam was still really big I liked rushing Rhinos ahead to eat smites, and block off enemy movement -- espcially if the enemy was not infantry, you can really corale them. 

Another thing I've considered (partly because I've always angled my Crimson Fists to be in the DeClates Crusade, working with Black Templars) is that a 20 man Crusader Squad can provide a formidable wall of infantry that characters can hide in, so I could use untargetable shenanigans to march the quality marine Characters forward. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Really? Because the defense of Medusa during the 13th Black Crusade consisted of the Iron Hands versus traitor Guard and is described in multiple sources as the largest tank battle in Imperial history since Tallarn.

This is also an example of a fluff battle that would fall under narrative games and rules.

Seeing as how it was a response to a post that started off "Lore wise..." then I don't know why you're bringing up tabletop rules?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

One thing I am looking forward to however is not having to face an army with 5 Leman Russes again!

 

I have bad news for you, one can fit 9 Leman Russes into the new 3 Data Slate rule because of Squadrons

Yeah. People mentioned that. Bar stewards.

[autek mor]

at least the storm eagle roc pattern gunship has not gone up in points plus it has better main weapon than the fire raptor has.

[Captain Idaho]

I personally think many people are chicken littling regarding these changes. Taken in isolation they may look more negative but in conjunction with all the rules they're actually pretty good.

 

Consider that people need to reconsider their lists to be less spammy and more varied, plus they can't deepstrike and wipe you out 1st turn, Space Marines now get a healthy amount of Command Points and if armies like Astra Millitarum want to take a Brigade they need to fill the slots without spamming for further Detachments since they can only have 3 and they can't have the same best 3 units for slot filling etc.

 

All that needs changing is 1st turn shooting. It has been suggested by a learned colleague of mine that 1st turn shooting should perhaps be changed to a -1 to hit barring infiltrators and fortifications etc.

[Ebon Hand]

at least the storm eagle roc pattern gunship has not gone up in points plus it has better main weapon than the fire raptor has.

Isn't it Minotaurs only?

[redmapa]

I personally think many people are chicken littling regarding these changes. Taken in isolation they may look more negative but in conjunction with all the rules they're actually pretty good.

 

 

They may be good for the rest of the game but its undeniable that certain armies get pushed deeper into the gutter and whatever problems they may have had before are made even worse now. 

[Captain Idaho]

Which armies though? None of the main armies are gutter armies. Grey Knights? Maybe they have a case but it's not as bad as it is often made out in 8th edition.

 

Besides, why should good progress not be made because of a handful of armies that need fixes with or without the changes?

[autek mor]

 

at least the storm eagle roc pattern gunship has not gone up in points plus it has better main weapon than the fire raptor has.

Isn't it Minotaurs only?

 

i read elsewhere on this forum, might be index astartes section that because there are no rules for badab chapters you can use a chapter trait from the marine codex. so that would be minotaurs with either iron hands, salamanders, white scars, ultramarines, black templars or imperial fists rules. 

[Ebon Hand]

Which armies though? None of the main armies are gutter armies. Grey Knights? Maybe they have a case but it's not as bad as it is often made out in 8th edition.

 

Besides, why should good progress not be made because of a handful of armies that need fixes with or without the changes?

I'm sure this "can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs" approach makes sense to you, but to people who are utterly screwed over it's a serious fun killer. If these changes become official the way they are now, people will definitely quit the game over it.

 

Why adopt changes that solve a problem in a way that screws some people over when there are ways to improve the game without screwing them over?

 

Like if they adopt the change, fine, but do it in conjunction with fixes or exceptions to the armies adversely affected, like they did with the smite change.

 

Or choose a more elegant fix. Fire Raptor spam could have been fixed by simply making them a relic again like they used to be in 6th-7th and bumping up the cost only slightly. Then they would still be usable for casual games without breaking competitive play (I contend that they didn't even do that, but I can recognise the feel bads Guilliman with 3 Raptors could cause).

 

 

 

at least the storm eagle roc pattern gunship has not gone up in points plus it has better main weapon than the fire raptor has.

Isn't it Minotaurs only?

i read elsewhere on this forum, might be index astartes section that because there are no rules for badab chapters you can use a chapter trait from the marine codex. so that would be minotaurs with either iron hands, salamanders, white scars, ultramarines, black templars or imperial fists rules.

Yeah I suppose you could do that, but you would lose access to your special characters that way I think.

[Race Bannon]

You could "counts-as" unless it's a tournament.

[Captain Idaho]

Which armies have been screwed? Black Templars can't charge 1st turn as easily? Why don't you drop them turn 3 or perhaps change your list?

 

What's the elegant fix?

 

As far as I am concerned, if you built your army to have 5 units of Hellblasters clumped around a Banner and Guilliman, or 9 Blightcrawlers, or whatever cheesey rubbish that makes the game boring as hell then I have NO sympathy.

[Firepower]

The deep strikers were more of a screen and diversion than an imminent 'cheezy' first turn charge danger.  They were there so we could get our now-mediocre chargers up field without getting minced.  I can understand not having sympathy towards the tournament wiping uber spam lists getting nerfed, but that's not what we had.  2 Ironclads and a Terminator squad on turn 1 was not an uber table cleaning strategy.  We had a crutch.  In fact, it's not that we can't charge first turn as easily now, it's that we can't do it at all.  And yet, Genestealers...

 

 

An elegant fix would be to tweak the inelegant beta rule.

[Ebon Hand]

Which armies have been screwed? Black Templars can't charge 1st turn as easily? Why don't you drop them turn 3 or perhaps change your list?

 

What's the elegant fix?

 

As far as I am concerned, if you built your army to have 5 units of Hellblasters clumped around a Banner and Guilliman, or 9 Blightcrawlers, or whatever cheesey rubbish that makes the game boring as hell then I have NO sympathy.

If you have no sympathy then why put in a change that only HELPS Guilliman Hellblaster blob?

 

All armies that have units that pay points for deepstrike have been screwed. Gunline armies or armies with deepstrike strategems can play around the change and are in much better shape.

 

An elegant fix is one that deals specifically with the problem units without clipping the wings of other armies/units.

 

Ie instead of nerfing assault cannons, nerf razorbacks so that Dreadnoughts Land Raiders Terminators and Land Speeders aren't penalized.

 

If Sanguinary Guard or Alpha Legion or Eldar or whatever are dominating with first turn deep strike then why not nerf those armies instead of the entire game? Were they even dominating with deepstrike? I can't even remember anyone complaining deep strike as the cause of their alpha strike woes.

 

Assuming it is an issue, they could put in meaningful deep strike counters via units or strategem and not have to nerf anything. What ever happened to Land Speeder storms and their anti deep strike ability?

 

So far I like the suggestion of no deepstrike into the enemies' deployment zone turn 1. You could even try doing -1 to hit on shooting the first turn when deep striking (although I like this a lot less. Tau would not be happy).