2018 Big FAQ - how will it affect your list?

[Race Bannon]

 

 

An elegant fix would be to tweak the inelegant beta rule.

 

FB and email is what we have until CA2018.

[Ishagu]

You'll find that gunline armies aren't actually the best at the moment.

 

Guilliman was good with Fire Raptors as a slowly advancing, sledgehammer of an force. That's gone now.

 

Eldar are dominating without the use of reserve manipulation. Nids can still assault turn 1 without needing to arrive from reserve.

If anything this does genuinely help Astra Militarum, but they'll always fail when they come across Eldar with their -2/3 to hit modifiers.

 

Armies most hurt are BA, however they won't be hit by turn 1 reserves alpha strikes either so they can diversify their lists with other units.

 

A lot of players are complaining - perhaps selfishly so. Even if you are affected negatively, try to see the game as a whole.

[MeltaRange]

 

If Sanguinary Guard or Alpha Legion or Eldar or whatever are dominating with first turn deep strike then why not nerf those armies instead of the entire game? Were they even dominating with deepstrike? I can't even remember anyone complaining deep strike as the cause of their alpha strike woes.

 

Assuming it is an issue, they could put in meaningful deep strike counters via units or strategem and not have to nerf anything. What ever happened to Land Speeder storms and their anti deep strike ability?

 

 

I wasn't complaining about melee alpha strike from reserves, but it was a problem for me.  The problem was more with Hormagants/Genestealers with the Trygon, large units of Death Company, Demon Bombs, and things like that because not only do they have things that can circumvent the 9" charge in someway, but they also have stratagems that allow them to fight twice - and those were used to insane effect on Turn 1 when you're all clumped up in your deployment zone to charge, pile in x2, consolidate x2 and tie up a huge portion of my army.  

[Schlitzaf]

Just to emphasis something, the deep strikers BT players used, were not to Alpha they glorified screens. Cheap used in mass to distract enemy guns and let our boys get up field. While we can by rules still do this (using Scout Squads).

 

There are many lines in this game I will cross for my army. I have two lines in the sand that shalled never be crossed (well three, but third is actually hard ruled).

1) I will never take a Scout Squad

2) I will never take a Tactical Squad

Those are my lines

[Firepower]

A lot of players are complaining - perhaps selfishly so. Even if you are affected negatively, try to see the game as a whole.

 

I'm not saying that Deep Strike isn't being brutally used by some armies, or that the situation doesn't need tending to.  I am saying that once again, because other peoples' armies are screwing things up, my already subpar army is getting hit.  This is the third time since 8th edition I've had to make sacrifices for the greater good without anything in return- 8th killed Vindicators, nerfed melee even more for my Crusaders, hit the already overpriced LRC with a beatstick because of razorspam, and now my DS crutch is jeopardized because of Blood Angels and Tyranids wiping the floor at tournies or whatever.

 

If the answer is "other people aren't having fun so get over it," when do I get to be the person everyone bends over backwards to accommodate?  So far it's been a rather one sided affair.  I can't help but feel a bit of 'selfishness' is justified when I have to constantly remove things from my army and buy new crap not because the new crap is good, but because other selfish people have decided things similar to my current good stuff in other peoples' armies isn't fun to play against.

 

Sigh...look, I don't like "But My Templars!" complaint thread hijacking any more than anyone else.  I don't like getting mad on the internet.  But when I see a problem with the new rules, and the response is "Well tough, because I'm not having fun," I would hope the irony hit home without being underlined.

[Ebon Hand]

Ishagu you only reinforce my point. I have a diverse enough collection to adapt, and my Dark Eldar basically come away mostly unscathed.

 

It's my friends who play exclusively Space Marines, Grey Knights, Eldar and Orks that I worry for because not everyone has the collection to adapt quickly.

 

In tournament play at Adepticon Tyranids, Eldar (specifically Ynnari, regular Eldar were doing on average worse than Space Marines if you can believe that) and Chaos were doing above average. They took some hits from the FAQ for sure but the reserve beta rules also hurt a score of other armies.

 

Bottom line, I just don't think the beta reserve rules in their current form are good for 8th. I think we can do better.

 

Of course I reserve the right to backpedal after I get some games in with my Dark Eldar. See, now I'm being selfish hehe. :D

[Ebon Hand]

I wasn't complaining about melee alpha strike from reserves, but it was a problem for me. The problem was more with Hormagants/Genestealers with the Trygon, large units of Death Company, Demon Bombs, and things like that because not only do they have things that can circumvent the 9" charge in someway, but they also have stratagems that allow them to fight twice - and those were used to insane effect on Turn 1 when you're all clumped up in your deployment zone to charge, pile in x2, consolidate x2 and tie up a huge portion of my army.

Those are valid points, but you'll be happy to know that those things that circumvent the 9 inch rule (ie Warptime, movement strategems/abilities, etc) were faqed to not work after deepstrike. Once you come in from reserves, you can't move at all except to charge. To me that makes the beta rules redundant.

 

Death Company with Lemartes will still be scary, but they cost an arm and a leg so I say let the poor Blood Angels have a nice thing.

[MeltaRange]

 

I wasn't complaining about melee alpha strike from reserves, but it was a problem for me. The problem was more with Hormagants/Genestealers with the Trygon, large units of Death Company, Demon Bombs, and things like that because not only do they have things that can circumvent the 9" charge in someway, but they also have stratagems that allow them to fight twice - and those were used to insane effect on Turn 1 when you're all clumped up in your deployment zone to charge, pile in x2, consolidate x2 and tie up a huge portion of my army.

Those are valid points, but you'll be happy to know that those things that circumvent the 9 inch rule (ie Warptime, movement strategems/abilities, etc) were faqed to not work after deepstrike. Once you come in from reserves, you can't move at all except to charge. To me that makes the beta rules redundant.

 

Death Company with Lemartes will still be scary, but they cost an arm and a leg so I say let the poor Blood Angels have a nice thing.

 

 

Adrenal Glands, Decent of Angels, Banner of Blood don't actually apply to those changes. (like Warptime or Hive Commander)  Adrenal Glands is a ~42% chance to make a charge without using Command Points and/or Behemoth, and if you do make that with Hormagants you're talking a 6" pile in --> 6" consolidate --> Adrenaline Surge --> 6" pile in --> 6" consolidate.  The problem is not that it existed, but it existed in the context that it could be easily unleashed onto a huge portion of your army while they are all clumped up in a deployment zone without a chance to fan out. (edit AND avoid overwatch because you can't overwatch if you weren't charged)

[Captain Idaho]

Since when are Black Templars a deep strike army? They got the same Codex as everyone in Codex Space Marines bar Librarians.

 

Black Templars are an assault force. Use Rhinos, jump packs and a couple blobs of Templars alongside a Terminator squad teleporting turn 2 then.

 

Codex Space Marines needs a rework but come on, build your lists and adapt.

[ERJAK]

 

 

I wasn't complaining about melee alpha strike from reserves, but it was a problem for me. The problem was more with Hormagants/Genestealers with the Trygon, large units of Death Company, Demon Bombs, and things like that because not only do they have things that can circumvent the 9" charge in someway, but they also have stratagems that allow them to fight twice - and those were used to insane effect on Turn 1 when you're all clumped up in your deployment zone to charge, pile in x2, consolidate x2 and tie up a huge portion of my army.

Those are valid points, but you'll be happy to know that those things that circumvent the 9 inch rule (ie Warptime, movement strategems/abilities, etc) were faqed to not work after deepstrike. Once you come in from reserves, you can't move at all except to charge. To me that makes the beta rules redundant.

 

Death Company with Lemartes will still be scary, but they cost an arm and a leg so I say let the poor Blood Angels have a nice thing.

 

 

Adrenal Glands, Decent of Angels, Banner of Blood don't actually apply to those changes. (like Warptime or Hive Commander)  Adrenal Glands is a ~42% chance to make a charge without using Command Points and/or Behemoth, and if you do make that with Hormagants you're talking a 6" pile in --> 6" consolidate --> Adrenaline Surge --> 6" pile in --> 6" consolidate.  The problem is not that it existed, but it existed in the context that it could be easily unleashed onto a huge portion of your army while they are all clumped up in a deployment zone without a chance to fan out. (edit AND avoid overwatch because you can't overwatch if you weren't charged)

 

Which makes the fact that hormagaunts can still do this first turn and the fact that Tyranids are being pushed towards a more extreme version of the same type of strategy that was frustrating before a bit scary, no?

[redmapa]

Since when are Black Templars a deep strike army? 

 

Ok I think we're not understanding each other here but since the beginning of the current edition, and other BTs can correct me if Im wrong, we have been trying to make assault work because thats what we love about the army, is it any good or efficient? Not at all, it was an uphill battle all the way through, could you win games? Yes and Im sure almost every other Templar was somewhat content with that since you could definitely win some games with an army that hasnt been good since 5th edition. Now how did we come up with some modicum of viability? By using deep striking units to tie up or threaten enemy units so the rest of the army can do its job, deep strikers were essentially our screens and distractions and they did fairly well because thats what our Chapter Tactic was really good for, allowing you to close that 9" gap as soon as possible and everything thats ours pushes you to be offensive, everything is meant for assaults.

 

Now no one will tell you that situation was actually any good, it was crap but sometimes it worked and I was ok with that but now with these changes that tactic is gone and now we have to play like the rest of the chapters, build a gunline and add some assault elements as buffers.

[ERJAK]

Since when are Black Templars a deep strike army? They got the same Codex as everyone in Codex Space Marines bar Librarians.

 

Black Templars are an assault force. Use Rhinos, jump packs and a couple blobs of Templars alongside a Terminator squad teleporting turn 2 then.

 

Codex Space Marines needs a rework but come on, build your lists and adapt.

As someone who plays heavy duty shooting armies, please do use as many suicide boxes and suicide footblobs to go along with your suicide bombs.

 

It is in no way a strategy that hasn't worked at all this edition and makes for a quick game of solitaire for more optimized lists. I would certainly be terrified. Yessiy, definitely terrified.

[MeltaRange]

ERJAK...not sure what you mean by your reply to me, but they certainly cannot do that anymore first turn since they can't deep strike in with the Trygon

[Captain Idaho]

*snip*

I get what you're saying.

 

However I would point out that deep striking screens works both ways - your opponent can't have deep striking elements to screen against.

 

Shooting is totally something I agree with. 1st turn annihilation is bad for the game no matter where it comes from. Limiting 1st turn shooting with -1 to hit would go some way to prevent Hive Guard dominating the tables before you get a chance to attack.

 

Alternatively perhaps a new rule during deployment - "concealed position" that imposes -1 to hit and units count as in cover 1st turn but you lose the benefit if you advance or charge or have the Fly keyword.

 

That would amend many problems folk have with 1st turn annihilation, alongside the changes in this FAQ.

[Ishagu]

With reserve alpha strikes being toned down, it's time for us to focus on terrain.

 

Large LOS blocking pieces on gaming tables are a must. The ITC have a very elegant rule in regards to the bottom floors of ruins also.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah most terrain I've seen on tournament tables is awful. Doesn't obstruct anything. I heartily agree.

[Ishagu]

One of the main criticisms of the game was actually how ineffective terrain was when units could just arrive anywhere and blast you with 40 Plasma shots on turn 1. Now that won't happen, and you'll have a full turn to spread out and mitigate potential losses on turn 2.

Maybe we should give GW a bit more credit.

 

 

Aside from increasing RG's cost. That was just silly!

[Dracos]

Just to emphasis something, the deep strikers BT players used, were not to Alpha they glorified screens. Cheap used in mass to distract enemy guns and let our boys get up field. While we can by rules still do this (using Scout Squads).

 

There are many lines in this game I will cross for my army. I have two lines in the sand that shalled never be crossed (well three, but third is actually hard ruled).

1) I will never take a Scout Squad

2) I will never take a Tactical Squad

Those are my lines

I get that. As a Primaris player I've chosen to live with not allowing myself certain units also. Self-imposed restrictions can really limit our tactical flexibility, but its my choice so I do my best to adapt. Curious, what did you play with before 4th edition? I use tp play almost Tac squad only. Now I won't touch them. I wouldn't touch Scouts if Reviers could Infiltrate like they should 

[Laughingman]

Really? Because the defense of Medusa during the 13th Black Crusade consisted of the Iron Hands versus traitor Guard and is described in multiple sources as the largest tank battle in Imperial history since Tallarn.

 

Medusa is kind of a exception to the rule, it is a chapter homeworld and there happened to be a full complement of space marines present.  

I stand by my statement that the vast majority of chapters don't have the numbers or resources (at least off a homeworld) too deploy in the massed armored formations of old... 

[justicarius6]

Seeing as how it was a response to a post that started off "Lore wise..." then I don't know why you're bringing up tabletop rules?

Because this thread is about responses to the new tabletop rules perhaps? And there seems to be a lot of sentiment about how the rule of three now prevents people bringing their fluffy lists to the table which is simply false.

[CrystalSeer]

With reserve alpha strikes being toned down, it's time for us to focus on terrain.

 

Large LOS blocking pieces on gaming tables are a must. The ITC have a very elegant rule in regards to the bottom floors of ruins also.

 

I think this is really the heart of the issue. In 8th, basic ruins (most of what's played) have been made almost useless for a lot of armies. Add that to a generally higher shot volume, and everything dies faster.

 

I believe this was done with the intent of forcing the player base to buy terrain and fortifications that still have defensive rules, but at least the places I game, no one is going for it. A lot of the balance issue may simply be GW trying to push kits and the player base wanting none of it.

[Panzer]

 

I believe this was done with the intent of forcing the player base to buy terrain 

 

That would only makes sense if GW would sell proper LOS blocking terrain. They don't tho. all their terrain has windows and stuff you can easily shoot whole units through.

[Race Bannon]

AND also smacks of conspiracy "from a certain point of view"^TM - the idea of changing a major deployment rule for the sake of selling product. 

 

Although not impossible, is likely improbable.  Besides being terrible game-making, we all know GW made the edition with tournament playtester feedback.  Occham's Razor points to GW watching what was being done on the tables and came up with a fix.

[d36williams]

What do y'all think of Meltas being more expensive than Plasma Guns? If they were the same price do you think Melta would be as desirable? 

 

Devastators with Lascannons and MLs are in a sweet spot. The things that can hide out of LOS are not usually a lascannon target. Good synergy. 

 

Bad synergy is meltaguns in a drop pod, when you can't drop. On top of that, the lack of horde killing long range firepower in Marines means clearing out screens of cheap units so you can drop in Melta range is also difficult. I'm not sure Marines have close range horde killing firepower -- hence all the Hurricane Bolter units with speed (Fliers, Custode Jetbikes). 

 

Has anyone discovered a great use of Tactical Marines? The guy on "Best General Podcast" cited Andrew Gonyo saying "I can't believe how much better my army is with 400 points of guard" in reference to BA lists. That comes out to something slightly less than 100 extra bodies for 400 points. Are C:SM at a disadvantage if we don't follow suit?

 

With the new Byzantine charge rule, I hadn't even considered how nightmarish fighting Tyranid Hiveguard can be, especially when combined with ITC Ruins rules. You could easily hide the Hiveguard in a ruin, block all LOS, they can shoot out, only LOS ignoring can shoot in, and they potentially cannot be charged. That seems potentially broken. 

[Aothaine]

Anyone else notice this?

 

Q: Is a Razorback firing a twin plasma gun destroyed if you roll a 1 to hit?

 

A: Yes.

 

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_index_imperium_1_en-1.pdf