2018 Big FAQ - how will it affect your list?

[momerathe]

Wasn't this always the case?

[d36williams]

If you're asking about the Razorback yes it was previously the case, I think people were just like "really golly gee?" to it

[Panzer]

Anyone else notice this?

 

Q: Is a Razorback firing a twin plasma gun destroyed if you roll a 1 to hit?

 

A: Yes.

 

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_index_imperium_1_en-1.pdf

 

Not everything in the FAQ is a change. Actually most things aren't. It's just a clarification because some people didn't want to believe it to work like that. ^^

[Firepower]

Though I never ran into the issue myself, I would've had a hard time believing such an extreme consequence was intentional, so I can understand clarifying it.

[Panzer]

It's weird, yeah. Especially since the Ion weapons on T'au suits specifically only cause a Mortal wound and don't kill the whole unit.

[Aothaine]

For sure. I was just really surprised that it removed the razorback. Does it blow up? If it has a squad in it do they just straight up die? I mean most models that are removed from the plasma roll of 1 are just straight up removed...  

 

Maybe the destroyed words means it loses all remaining wounds?

[Ishagu]

It's really silly and makes the weapon not worthwhile.

[Ebon Hand]

You can just not overcharge it, or keep it near rerolls. I mean, I agree that it should probably just cause mortal wounds to itself but I wouldn't overcharge it unless it's already dying anyway.

 

Things like that serve to highlight something I think we all know. Space Marines we're probably the first codex for 8th to get done, and their vision and understanding of 8th has matured a little since then. The SM codex was probably done well before 8th even hit, so we've seen some slight creep, but imo not nearly as bad or obvious as previous editions.

[Tokugawa]

It's really silly and makes the weapon not worthwhile.

Plasma rules on vehicle are weird. On some vehicles overheat just take 1 wound, on other it boom the whole vehicle. No one would choose the later choice, unless the player misread or muddle the rules.

 

However, since GW already removed the las-plas comfigulation on razorbacks, plasmagun is extremely seldom seen on a razorback.

[InquisitorBlack]

Hey guys, I just released a video with my thoughts on the FAQ. I hope you enjoy, would love some feedback as well.

[Ishagu]

You can just not overcharge it, or keep it near rerolls. I mean, I agree that it should probably just cause mortal wounds to itself but I wouldn't overcharge it unless it's already dying anyway.

 

Things like that serve to highlight something I think we all know. Space Marines we're probably the first codex for 8th to get done, and their vision and understanding of 8th has matured a little since then. The SM codex was probably done well before 8th even hit, so we've seen some slight creep, but imo not nearly as bad or obvious as previous editions.

The creep isn't slight unfortunately.

You can see the massive disparity in power when you compare something like Centurions to Necron Destroyers, and further account for strategems. We have the worst general strategems of all the books and honestly, it's not even worth bringing a Battalion if you don't feel like it (unless you're infiltrating with RG).

 

Psychic powers are the weakest, by a long shot, of all codex armies. Ultimately useless and currently it's a waste of points to bring a Librarian.

[jpwyrm]

I was erring to the side of caution regarding the FAQ and general feel of uselessness of Marines. But I played a game yesterday with Raptors, Lias, a bunch devastators, lots of bodies and anti tank weapon. I played against Drukhari boat spam. And for the 8 times in a row against different armies I came down to two conclusions : marines don't have the staying power to make a difference in a game (my fate is usually sealed by turn two or three). Second thing is Marines are pigeonholed into reroll bubbles to be efficient which is both limiting and predictable. Oh I forgot one conclusion, so make that three. Marines stuff is way overcost.

 

I was still optimistic I'd be able to find a way to play and, not necessarily win some games, but at least feel like I could win a game. Now I just play and hope that I get first turn and that my opponent suffers some bad luck so that we can reach turn five without my "elite" Astartes being blown to bits or hacked to pieces too quick. It's disheartening.

 

Oh and as far as tthe Tactical Reserves is concerned, unless we find a way to make marines more durable, it is not viable. Our units will either be destroyed by mass shooting or tied/killed in assault by the time the reserves come in without having made a dent in the opposing force.

 

So yeah : discouraged and salty marine player here :(

[MeltaRange]

Don't be discouraged after playing Drukhari...they are ridiculous.  Marines can still be competitive but I think we're going to need to change our lists around a bit.  I actually have a few things lined up to try out that are a bit outside the box.  

 

At worst, Raven Guard are still pretty good.  

[Ishagu]

Drukhari aren't ridiculous. They are merely comparative to Nids and Eldar.

 

Marines are bottom tier.

[Dracos]

Check your 50/50 PL and units at the door boys ;) Dedicated to making Raven Guard work but just because it’s an exception SftS is being quite overly touted IMO. UM with Bobby and Razors might see a comeback but I doubt it’ll last

 

Nope it’s time to but your Chapter Master hat’s on and start looking at new ideas.

- Bolter Scouts in the back corners just got popular for me

- alternatively taking a look at a pair of Sentry Guns or the SM Air Defense Missiles Launchers for same kind duties

[Ishagu]

We don't have the sheer competitive variety of other factions. Marines are lacking high speed, effective assault units, disposable infantry and fairly costed vehicles :-/

[Tamiel]

I recommend my Black Templar brothers (I'm an Ultramarine here) to consider Rhinos. I've been using Tac squads in rhinos (but those unique squads that Black Templars get would do even better for this strategy) to assault the enemy if my enemy has poor melee units. Against guard tanks, or basically any unit that doesn't have good melee capabilities, this is what I do with fully loaded Rhinos:

1. Move forward 12" (If I know I can make the charge, skip to step 4)

2. Advance D6
3. Pop Smoke (You can pop smoke after advancing)

4. Charge enemy this turn, or if I can't, do it next turn.

 

Once the rhino has charged the enemy, next turn my marines get out. The Rhino falls back. Marines rapid fire, then they charge the same enemy.

If the enemy is bad at melee (as most gun line army units are), you will slowly but surely beat them in melee. Marines do little damage with just punching, but they are tough and they will slowly but surely win. Biggest thing is that by getting into melee with them, you tie them up. If you get enough assaults going, they have no option of falling back because half their army is tied up. Against targets like Leman Russes, you can just have the Rhino tie up one leman russ while the tac squad goes after something else (like a nearby guard squad). You can even effectively shut down two leman russes for a whole game with just a rhino and 10 marines. If you combat squad, even more.

The best part is how inexpensive Rhinos and Tac squads are (again, as BT you have that one squad which is an even better version of a Tac squad for this sort of thing. I forget what they're called. Crusader squads maybe?). These squads and rhinos are so cheap, that you can easily bring three of them for about 600pts. That's 30 marines and 3 rhinos for about 600 points.

 

If you bring about 5 for 1000 points, you can have enough redundancy to not give a damn if your opponent destroys one of your Rhinos turn one. 50 marines and 5 rhinos. Even the cheesiest gunline army is not going to stop this from getting in their face.

Even the nastiest gunline armies are going to struggle against 5 Rhinos all popping smoke.

So, try it out, see if it works for you. I hope it goes well. I think Rhinos are really good.

[Firepower]

I think that is the first time I've heard someone call Rhinos cheap.

[Tamiel]

72 points for a unit that has a stormbolter, 10 wounds, T7, 3+ save, smoke launchers, and can house 10 marines while moving 12". On top of that it can tie up an enemy unit and make it useless for the rest of the game if it is a shooty non-flying unit.

That's a bargain to me. We're not in 7th edition anymore, and the Rhino is more expensive than it used to be. But what it provides today, in the world of 8th edition, is so valuable that the 72 pt cost is more than worth its price.

Not to mention you can use it as a piece of line of sight blocking cover for most marine units.

The biggest thing is housing 10 marines and being able to move 12" (+ charge). Your marines are moving 12" on the table without actually being on the table. It's almost like deepstriking. The fact that, unlike a drop pod, you can use the Rhino to tie up some other unit after it has completed its job is amazing.

[Firepower]

As an aside, after equipping the bare minimum for a melee squad (2 swords and a flamer), 5 come out to be about 1150 points, and it's technically 25 marines and 25 scouts. I'm not saying that to be dismissive of the idea mind you, but you become very aware of those technicalities running Crusaders.

[Tamiel]

Drop the flamers imo. For 9 points they are overpriced in the hands of a marine, who already gets a bolter and BS3 for free. Flamers are better in the hands of guardsmen, who have worse guns than us, and their bad BS actually makes the flamer kind of useful. Getting two S4 shots hitting on 3+ for free is a MUCH better deal than paying 9 points for D6 S4 shots.

And if the guys you're giving the power swords to have anything less than 3 attacks, then in my opinion the chainsword is better. Having one extra attack for free is comparable to having the sword. How many attacks does a sword brother have? (I'm looking it up now to be honest)

Can you get a crusader squad with no scouts, just the power armored guys? Either way the scouts are cheaper, so you might be able to do this for sub 1000pts even if you can't drop them.

Edit: Just looked it all up. It seems you can get 10 power armored guys in a crusader squad, so if you go with that, then you will basically get a 10man tac squad except they can come with chainswords instead of bolters should you so choose. Also the sword brother is just like a sergeant, two attacks. Not worth it for a power sword. Getting two AP-3 attacks for 4 points, vs getting three AP 0 attacks for free? The second option is better imo.

Power weapons become good in the hands of a leuitenant, captain, veteran sgt, ect. These guys have 3 or more attacks, and their attacks are often hitting on 2+ (for the cases of the lieutenant and the captain). For just a guy hitting on 3+ with two attacks? The chainsword giving him another attack is already a big increase for him comparably, and the sword just doesn't get as much use out of him as the other guys I mentioned.

If you absolutely want to run power swords, take a look at company veterans. The veteran sergeant has 3 attacks base, and there the power sword starts to look pretty good compared to the chainsword.

But yeah, everything I said previously seems to hold true for BTs. You guys can easily do this strategy for the same cost, and probably much better than Ultramarines.

[Tamiel]

Also I did some research on the transports.

I think the Rhino is the cheapest transport in the game, actually (72 pts). Cheaper than a ghost arc (170 pts), a Dark Eldar Raider (115 pts), a Dark Eldar Venom (80pts), Eldar Wave Serpent (129 pts), Tau Devilfish (127 pts), Chimera (93 pts), and Ork Trukk (82 pts).

Some of these transports have fly, which means they can't be tied in melee. But all the ones that have fly are at least 120+ points (almost double the price of a rhino), with the exception of the Raider (115 pts) and the Venom (80 pts, but only holds 5 guys). Many of these are T6. The Raider and the Venom are T5...

Some of these, like the Chimera and the Ork Trukk, are more expensive despite providing almost no advantage at all compared to the rhino in terms of transporting troops. The Trukk has ramshackle, which is comparable to the smoke launchers, but has T6. 

A lot of these transports have better weapons than the rhino, but in general it seems much more cost efficient to buy actual units for damage dealing than buying a transport for that purpose. A similar idea follows for the transports that are open topped. 

Basically, anything that has any type of bells and whistles that the Rhino doesn't is paying a ton of extra points for it, or has a lower toughness (while still costing more than a rhino).

Long story short, if you want to move guys around quickly while keeping them technically off the board, nothing in the game does it for as cheap as the rhino, and as effectively as the rhino (with the exception of the fly rule). The Rhino can't fly, but anything that can is paying almost double the price of the rhino to be able to do so. On top of this, consider the type of cargo most of these transports can carry. Being able to carry 10 Space Marines is a huge deal compared to, say, 12 guardsmen, or 12 orks, or 10 tau warriors ect.
 

[Dracos]

I like the outside the box (for an Ultramarine player especially) thinking. :D

 

It’s important to test these ideas not just on paper or on forums but on the table (preferably with pics ;)) More importantly lets keep sharing ideas like this instead of wallowing in our supposed mediocrity until we find ideas that give the best chance possible

[Tamiel]

I like the outside the box (for an Ultramarine player especially) thinking.

 

It’s important to test these ideas not just on paper or on forums but on the table (preferably with pics ) More importantly lets keep sharing ideas like this instead of wallowing in our supposed mediocrity until we find ideas that give the best chance possible

 I have a whole thread in the Ultramarines forum where I test this idea and post batreps. No pictures sadly, but I go pretty deep into detail. I'm not playing on a tournament scene however, so I don't know how well the strategy holds up against very advanced players. So far I'm getting great results with it though!

 

Guilliman wrote the Codex to be a guide, not a strict set of rules. In his words, nothing can replace a commander's ability to think for himself. 

 

And in all honesty, if the codex actually existed, the strategy I'm using would probably be on at least one of its pages. We're Space Marines, so we're paying for S4 and WS3 on even our shooty troops. Is it so hard to believe that using them for melee purposes against shooty armies could pay off really well, especially when paired with the most cost effective transport both on the tabletop and the lore?

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I thought about there razorbacks with TLAC And LRC, supported by captain on bike. Assisted with some scout bikes to screen them.