Mars Pattern VS Deimos Pattern Rhinos and GW kits in general

[stuka06]

Hey everyone,

 

when I first started collecting my Emperors Children, I placed a big order of items that I thought I wanted for my army. Those included things that made a lot of sense (Upgrade kits) to not so useful (Fulgrim, cool but not needed to start out). This included Deimos Pattern Rhinos. But, would this be the prevalent chassis for the Emperors Children?

From what I've gathered, the Deimos Pattern Rhino was a bit more sophisticated and complicated than the Mars Pattern Rhino, while the latter was easier to produce and maintain. With the 3rd Legion joining the Great Crusade on a big scale later than other Legions, would they have widespread access to Deimos Pattern Rhinos, or have a bigger fleet of of the Mars Pattern variant?

 

I know, in the end, it's up to me, but I'm looking for a bit of input. All my Tactical Marines wear MK4 armor (Calth....) and I will have to make so stupid expensive conversions to use Cataphracti TDA, there is some doubt, which Rhino would fit better into my army. 

 

This actually feeds into a bigger feeling I have regarding which models to use for a Horus Heresy army.

Indomitus pattern TDA is available during the Crusade and later on. The only reaseon why the 40k Dark Angels can maintain a company of TDA wearing veterans is the fact that they still have all of these relics lying around. Still, I've yet to see someone using plastic GW Terminator kits for their HH army. and I haven't considered using them myself. Is that because I follow in a community trend here or because I too feel that there needs to be a visual distinction in the models used for a HH army. Honestly, I'm not sure. I've seen plenty of plastic Land Raiders... Those seem to fit, then why do I feel so uninspired (not sure if that's the right word) when I want to get GW Land Speeder kits (I won't use the upcoming FW kit) for mobile attack vehicles, something which works perfectly with the idea of the EC. 

 

Warhammer 40k has always described the Imperium as a technologicaly stagnant  culture, crippled in its progress by the Betrayal. There is no reason, Mars Pattern Rhinos should look out of place transporting my MK4 wearing Emperors Children across the battlefield.

 

And yet... in my mind it does. That may be my personal short coming. Perfection is still out of reach. 

 

What do you think, brothers?

[nagashnee]

For a legion as perfectionist as the Third, i cant see them getting in anything but the best Rhinos the imperium can provide. 

[Xenith]

For a legion as perfectionist as the Third, i cant see them getting in anything but the best Rhinos the imperium can provide. 

 

Volkite was eschewed over bolters for the same reason - more effective but harder to maintain.

 

By your logic, the III legion should be armed entirely with volkite weapons, with much fewer bolters. 

 

They want to win a war in the most perfect way possible, perfect planning, perfect strategy, however I think this would involve a certain pragmatism. 

[stuka06]

For a legion as perfectionist as the Third, i cant see them getting in anything but the best Rhinos the imperium can provide. 

 

Are you sure?

If their plan for achieving compliance relied on a small force fighting for a long time, wouldn't it make sense for them to base their mobility on easy to maintain transport vehicles? Those that need the fewest supplies to function.

 

Also, would there be enough supply of Deimos Pattern Rhinos at that point in the Crusade and going into the Heresy?

 

 

While it started as a fluff question, the hobby/modelling/collecting part of it is something that vexes me greatly.

Though I do admit that my opening post was quite a cluster of ideas and thoughts.

[Marshal Rohr]

You can mix and match to make your Deimos go farther by using plastic front plates with Deimos side plates, and vice versus. The set of 3 becomes six Heresy artwork adjacent rhinos with purchase of a few old plastics off eBay.

[nagashnee]

Lets remember that as the legion grew they stayed close to horus, who was know for getting only the best, also as they grew in numbers from a tiny force to a legion (even if small) it would be easy to get the small numbers of rhinos they needed, as they would never ask for any significant amount at any one time. But rather be dripped fed them. 

 

 

For a legion as perfectionist as the Third, i cant see them getting in anything but the best Rhinos the imperium can provide. 

 

Volkite was eschewed over bolters for the same reason - more effective but harder to maintain.

 

By your logic, the III legion should be armed entirely with volkite weapons, with much fewer bolters. 

 

They want to win a war in the most perfect way possible, perfect planning, perfect strategy, however I think this would involve a certain pragmatism. 

 

 

Everything i have read about the third legion points to the blade and cc having the star role in their combat ethos. I dont see them caring particularly for what type of range weapons they get ( tho trying to excel with what they have), far more import would be given to CC weapons, and artificers for their armor. Things they can directly compare to their borther legion.

 

Also volkite were not simply better then  the bolter, they had sorter ranges and did worse vs armor. And we have nothing to say the third did NOT try to get its hands on as many as possible.  

 

Neither did i ever say that the entire legion would have one type of rhino, or one type of weapons, merely stating that since the PLAYER does have a choice i see the better version of the rhino matching the thirds mindset, with its over engineered faults merely being a test for the legions techmarines. 

 

As for pragmatism, depends how far into the timeline we want to go eh?

 

 

 

For a legion as perfectionist as the Third, i cant see them getting in anything but the best Rhinos the imperium can provide. 

 

Are you sure?

If their plan for achieving compliance relied on a small force fighting for a long time, wouldn't it make sense for them to base their mobility on easy to maintain transport vehicles? Those that need the fewest supplies to function.

 

Also, would there be enough supply of Deimos Pattern Rhinos at that point in the Crusade and going into the Heresy?

 

 

While it started as a fluff question, the hobby/modelling/collecting part of it is something that vexes me greatly.

Though I do admit that my opening post was quite a cluster of ideas and thoughts.

 

 

Why not do both, have 1 fw rhino be the pride and joy of the expedition with obvious more bling/detailed paint job, and have the rest be plastic rhinos which are treated by the third as lesser beasts?

[Elzender]

I think the main factor is purely aesthetics. Having different patterns for power armour and vehicles helps giving the Heresy its own aesthetics, and some HH collectors were drawn into it (including me) precisely because of these changes. Actually, some of the armour patterns and vehicles grew on me even though at first they did not catch my attention, and on the other side the usual 40k patterns became a bit "boring" for me.

Regarding terminators, I think another major factor is that the indomitus kit is starting to show its age, and the most recent kits for this armour are precisely for some of the few legions that don't have full rules yet (Dark and Blood Angels). Moreover, the fact that both tartaros and cataphractii have different and usually better rules does not help.

About land raiders, I'm not sure whether the mkIIb pattern is officially the 30k pattern, so I think it is reasonable to use the plastic kit as is (although I am actually converting mine to mkIIb because I personally think it fits better). Moreover, most other heresy vehicles are exclusively available through FW unless you make heavy conversion work, so it is probably not so much of an issue.

About land speeders, I just love the look of the 2nd edition ones, so I bought 2 on ebay and looking for a third, but right now the only readily available pattern is the plastic one so you can (and basically, must) use it in 30k.

 

Finally, for your initial question, and considering that you already have deimos rhinos, I would recommend you to build one, paint it and see if you like it next to your marines. If you have a Mars pattern rhino available, you could even buld and paint them side by side and see which one fits better with your army (don't know if the deimos kit comes with all the parts necessary for building both patterns or if it is necessary to cut up the base kit, but you could try to dry fit one of each using blu-tac and compare them without spending money)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I do have a 10 strong Indomitus pattern Terminator squad for my Wolves, used a few times, simply waiting for the ETL for paint

 

I figured Russ could have gotten some of the set just prior to marching out against Horus

[Qkhitai]

I don't think there is any problem with using Mars Rhinos in a Horus Heresy army, but I always thought they were kind of retconned back into it. My memories of the early Heresy artwork always included the older vehicles marks, Deimos Rhinos and Proteus Land Raiders etc, so they fit the aesthetic of the period better in my eyes. I just use the old RT/2nd edition models though, rather than the FW upgrades. I'm not sure what the current fluff is regarding Deimos vs Mars pattern Rhinos, I assumed it was an old vs new thing.

[Arminius_Warbringer]

I just wanted to add that logistics is an important piece to the art of war that is on par with battlefield tactics or as vital and fundamental as sword play\marksmanship is for the individual warrior. It is not really known in the general world as such, but it has been as practiced and developed as any other part of warcraft. So I think it would hold a very important and prestigious place in the Great Crusade as a whole and with the 3rd legions' dedication to perfection etc. This should not be over looked or under estimated in place of importance.

 

With that being said, I also think the hypothetical performance of Deimos rhinos versus Mars pattern rhinos is negligible as far as I can tell(per the stats and fluff I have seen). In terms of preference of one over the other, that means it would have been reduced to a basic question of logistics and maintenance as far as the "perfection" element goes. There simply isn't a technical advantage of observable significance that makes one dominant in terms of performing the allotted task or preferable to the other on those grounds. To me that sums up the technical and philosophical issue in gist and would imply that the Mars pattern was the more likely choice, or at least it was every bit as likely a choice, from that perspective or angle.

 

That leaves the last 2 points and perhaps the more important \relevant points. That would be cost per unit and the ultimate arbitrator for all things 30k... The rule of cool!

 

Cost is a no brainer! In the US you can buy 5 Mars pattern rhinos for roughly $150 any day of the week. While 3 Deimos pattern rhinos will cost $152. That is without tax or shipping on either. That is enough for me to question the logic when it is nearly 2 to 1 after shipping. After all these are just basic transports, not feature pieces to the army, and this hobby is cost prohibitive to most people as it is. I personally try to put my money where it works best and looks cool too. Yet, at the end of the day and with all things considered, it is still just a basic rhino.

 

So when I bought mine, the lack of legion specific doors for the Deimos(at that time they did not make any), was enough to make the decision easy for me. I simply bought the type that had custom doors and the money saved was an extra incentive. Money that I spent on gear like shoulder pads for my legion and other custom kit that is nice and looks great.

 

So last up for analysis is the 'rule of cool' factor. This really is at the core of all things 30k and it is normally more important than any logical concerns in situations like this. At least it is for most people. This is the problem I think you are grappling with more than any other. If it looks cool and looks distinctly different than 40k it can immediately override all other concerns. So you see people place this above all other concerns most of the time and that helps make the hobby what it is. I think this is why you are kind of torn between the two and I think what you want primarily is a clearly defined look that is specifically 30k and EC 3rd legion.

 

Deimos rhinos scream 30k to most people and looks distinctly 30k while the Mars pattern is more open to interpretation and that can be problematic for a 30k purist(I am not making any moral judgement when using this term). I think that if you go with the Deimos you will probably never look back on the move; but you may continue to feel those 2nd thoughts and doubts if you don't go with Deimos rhinos. However, this is my opinion based on the above.

 

Either way you choose to go, your army will look great to the absolute overwhelming majority of players and only a very small few MAY quietly object to the aesthetic difference between the two. Many of those will do so based upon the erroneous misunderstanding that only Deimos were around at the time or for more deep seated and uniquely personal reasoning. So go with whatever it is that makes you happy and gives you peace of mind brother, and don't worry about the judgements of other people. For the most part, they will not be anywhere near as critical as you are of your own self. I hope this proves helpful to you. Good luck and happy hunting!

[Kizzdougs]

The Emperor's Children were well equiped after their reunion with Fulgrim. Betrayal says:

 

"The Emperor, perhaps pleased with the zealous acceptance of Fulgrim and his people into the Imperium, personally decreed substantial resources immediately put at the Legion's disposal." p105.

 

Sure, they wouldn't have had materiel reserves on the level of the Iron Warriors or Iron Hands, but the equipment that they did have would have been of the highest quality.

 

Also, the fact that the Third Legion were one of the Emperor's most favoured Legions during the Great Crusade, and that once Horus had fallen he began funnelling supplies to the Legions loyal to him, means that the Emperor's Children would have had pretty unimpeded access to resupply.

[Gorgoff]

I do have a 10 strong Indomitus pattern Terminator squad for my Wolves, used a few times, simply waiting for the ETL for paint

 

I figured Russ could have gotten some of the set just prior to marching out against Horus

Have you changed their look somehow?

[Supe robot gangster #1]

I use both patterns for my EC, both look great in deep purple

[Amun Ra]

I use Mars pattern with my Raven Guard, and Deimos with my Iron Warriors. Partly as I think both suit their relative legions, but also use a lot more with my Raven Guard, so cost was a factor, and I prefer where possibly to work with plastic over resin.

[Master Sheol]

I would not complain about the use of 40k rhinos and LRs in 30k cause the fluff days they are used

About 30k i am building anche army using mainly plastic kits for 3 good reasons

- With my FLGS i cani have a discount buying GW Kira compared to FW kits (a 30k army in GW plastic Will costo you less then half with the right discounting shop)

- Plastic is easier to build and convert compared to resin

- There are too many 30k fluff-models-FW nazis and i have fun irritating those ones

 

In addiction DA Will be out in 2 years or more so i am saving money for the real 30K kits i need: the ones with a winged sword

 

So go on and use all the kits you want cause it's your army and your hobby and don't let any fluff nazi ti tell you what to buy...

[stuka06]

So last up for analysis is the 'rule of cool' factor. This really is at the core of all things 30k and it is normally more important than any logical concerns in situations like this. At least it is for most people. This is the problem I think you are grappling with more than any other. If it looks cool and looks distinctly different than 40k it can immediately override all other concerns. So you see people place this above all other concerns most of the time and that helps make the hobby what it is. I think this is why you are kind of torn between the two and I think what you want primarily is a clearly defined look that is specifically 30k and EC 3rd legion.

 

Deimos rhinos scream 30k to most people and looks distinctly 30k while the Mars pattern is more open to interpretation and that can be problematic for a 30k purist(I am not making any moral judgement when using this term). I think that if you go with the Deimos you will probably never look back on the move; but you may continue to feel those 2nd thoughts and doubts if you don't go with Deimos rhinos. However, this is my opinion based on the above.

 

Either way you choose to go, your army will look great to the absolute overwhelming majority of players and only a very small few MAY quietly object to the aesthetic difference between the two. Many of those will do so based upon the erroneous misunderstanding that only Deimos were around at the time or for more deep seated and uniquely personal reasoning. So go with whatever it is that makes you happy and gives you peace of mind brother, and don't worry about the judgements of other people. For the most part, they will not be anywhere near as critical as you are of your own self. I hope this proves helpful to you. Good luck and happy hunting!

 

I think that's at the heart of the issue. Thank you for your input. In the end, you are right, that the rule of cool is the one that trumps most other concerns.

I will only build a single EC army. I won't create another unrelated one were I do everything again but better. 

The cost is an interesting factor. While wasting money is easy to do in this hobby, I've never felt that spending more money to improve models is anything I'd regret afterwards. It's more the other way round, where not going all out would bug me. (even does right now)

 

 

The Emperor's Children were well equiped after their reunion with Fulgrim. Betrayal says:

 

"The Emperor, perhaps pleased with the zealous acceptance of Fulgrim and his people into the Imperium, personally decreed substantial resources immediately put at the Legion's disposal." p105.

 

Sure, they wouldn't have had materiel reserves on the level of the Iron Warriors or Iron Hands, but the equipment that they did have would have been of the highest quality.

 

Also, the fact that the Third Legion were one of the Emperor's most favoured Legions during the Great Crusade, and that once Horus had fallen he began funnelling supplies to the Legions loyal to him, means that the Emperor's Children would have had pretty unimpeded access to resupply.

 

Ah, so there are official text to consult. Cheers, man.