Deathwatch + the Primaris Rumour

[Prot]

I’ve been thinking about this a lot since the rumour alleging we see Primaris as a mixed option for Deathwatch.

 

At first I was really disappointed thinking this wasn’t really going to help our cause. But is there something I’m missing here?

 

Right now Primaris are sub standard. And at their best, they’re supported by Guilliman and mostly the Hellblasters are the cherry picked unit of choice.

 

So what would Deathwatch offer us that makes us say, yes, I must include Primaris in my next Deathwatch list?

 

Firstly I would say the Redemptor is a big no. It’s a unit that has always been suboptimal for me. Secondly I’d suggest we have to consider the Repulsor, or else we assu,e our Primaris are foot bound. Is this a negative or a positive?

 

Finally we have the rumoured unit mixing. Is this a big enough advantage to make Guilliman a non factor? As per the FAQ he is now 400 Pts. But what does unit mixing give us?

 

Assuming Primaris only mix with Primaris, does this mean anything more than putting an intercessor with your Helblasters as an ablative wound?

 

Personally I don’t mind Primaris but with Guilliman they represent a very different threat. Primaris can also be offset cost wise with Scouts. Which is something else we aren’t afforded with Deathwatch.

 

Another thought hit me though... what if Intercessors were able to take SIA? Would this make them tempting to you or still feed into the cost issue we see with marines in general?

 

Just throwing out some ideas based on this rumour, partially because I think it’s probable.

[Moostick]

If it really does become something as uninspired as 5 Intercessors + whatever, they'll essentially gain what they used to lack compared to vanilla marines, which would be the "ability" to take special/heavy weapons. They would now essentially be Primaris Tactical Squads. Give them SIA, and now they're Veteran Tactical Units.

 

I can go on a long rant, so I'll just say this: I only hope they do something about Veterans as well. If they make Veterans completely obsolete, I will lose all faith in GW ever even trying to fix DW as a faction.

[ashc]

I've said it before, but at least let us have access to all the model options too, even if they are in the Dark Imperium boxed set. People are converting up fantastic looking Gravis Captains, Lt's, and Ancients but have been denied rules to use them for no apparent reason other than that they are not sold separately? - come on GW, you can sell more Dark Imperium boxes to deathwatch players that way.

 

Rules-wise certainly the Lt's and some banners would provide a welcome boost and some potential for options.

[Mobius0288]

Honestly, I would only look forward to a couple things with Primaris being even more integrated into Deathwatch. As they are now, they are ok. They do make us more competitive but you're right, some of those options don't benefit us at all. Not even for fun, simply because our base price for everything is already pretty high.

 

- SIA for primaris would be HUGE. You would definitely see more primaris only armies, which would be good in my opinion. And OMG Inceptors with SIA. Can you imagine?

 

- Mixing in Reivers with Intercessors is gonna be big, at least for me since I use them as screens. Now if they were to enter close combat, it's a whole different ball game.... -1 Ld, shock grenades

 

- And like you said, the customization options... even something like adding power swords to every "veteran" intercessor would be fantastic. LT's and Gravis Captains would be a bonus at this point for me since, like you mentioned, we are still stuck using repulsors and the angelic beacon for transport. You can bet I'm more likely to beef up a primaris squad and beacon them because they are cheaper per wound and can still cause some serious trouble in the right position.

[Boyadventurer]

I've been thinking about this a lot gearing up for the new codex. I'm excited, but worried at the same time.

 

First off, fluff wise, I'm not against DW becoming more or less the "Primaris codex", I think that's how they should have been handled anyway. Now we have two "the best equipped space marines with all the cool new tech who work(ed) in squads of mixed chapters". At least now, it should make sense that DW would get a big reinforcement of Primaris marines since a) they're used to working closely with other chapters, 2) if DW get all the best gear, they'd also get all the best v.2 super soldiers.

 

Crunchwise: mixed bag, but I mean most of my worry is really just based on how they've been handled so far. I've said it a few times already, but with the addition of strategems, I think that's the ticket for creating an engaging DW codex. Scrap those stupid FOC role bonuses for different kill teams, give me a strategem for a device disrupts the synapse of tyranids for a turn, special ammo that deteriorates the necron living metal and gives penalties on their reanimation protocols, etc. There's room in there for primaris specific stratgems too I think, depending on what sort of kill team bonuses the different unit types get.

 

Speaking of, I think there's some good synergy in there. Imagine aggressors letting a squad shoot twice?! Aggressors alone would be pretty good additions to a squad. Double flamer and hidden powerfist in a pretty cheap package is some decent CC deterrent. Though Primaris don't have much in the way of CC potential yet, still, a Reiver leading a squad using his grenade to null overwatch would be useful against scum like guardians or Tau lines. 2w/2a aren't slubs in CC compared to most other troop choices.

If the kill teams are going to be 5 intercessors min, I'd like to see something to boost them a bit. SIA might do it, but I was also thinking adding another grenade type to the aux launcher might make it more of a compelling choice. Xenophase swords on the sergeant would have to be included in the Primaris upgrade pack too.

 

Dark Imperium models are a must as well. DW were already weak in anti tank weaponry to begin with and if hellblasters are all we're getting as additions, the ancient is a pretty important piece to making that work. The LTs I'm not sure about without a bit of retooling. Rerolling 1s to wound with the 2+ to wound ammo on our basic guns might be a bit too much.

 

-- I got distracted halfway through this post and lost most of my train of thought, so I'll leave it at this for now.

[Prot]

 

 

I know we’ve heard a lot about Primaris from a multitude of sources,but we already know Hellblasters are ‘good’. Deepstriking them is better.

 

What I want to hear is that my Deathwatch are going to have a fair, usable advantage that might make other chapters a bit jealous.

 

What I don’t want to hear is that an awkward mechanism allows me to jumble together a bunch of Primaris no one uses. Even the ratios will be important. For example, if you have to take 5 Intercessors before adding something else that’s going to be awkward.

 

We would need a Watchmaster or Captain in Primaris/ Gravis for sure. This will sell some Repulsors. So I anticipate a sprue or something.

[ashc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC6u-m-0eeM

 

This was uploaded yesterday, saying a lot of similar things as others are about the upcoming rumours.

[Ahistorian]

You guys are making me genuinely keen on a Primaris Deathwatch army - veteran, mixed equipment P-Marines would be great! But fire must be held, I think, until the codex drops and we see all its happy little flaws...

[mjrwaud]

Uuuuuugh...

I'm not at all excited about Primaris inducted into the Deathwatch... although I might just be frustrated at the prospect of the scale difference and them making all the real veterans look old / obsolete.

[Claws and Effect]

Honestly I'm getting frustrated with GW essentially forcing Primaris on everyone whether we want them or not.

[Major_Gilbear]

I personally have no issue with Primaris in DW, regardless of how tedious it may feel sometimes.

 

However, what I don't want to see is the deeper issues with the DW rules and capabilities remaining unaddressed because GW spent their efforts writing in more Primaris stuff.

 

Even so, it's still early days, and I haven't seen anything definite yet in terms of firm-looking rumours. We may be pleasantly surprised and the core special rules get looked at. Even if it's not top-tier, I'd be happy to have something solidly in the middle, and would welcome the opportunity to have the other character loadouts that all other SMs get. Similarly, I'm hoping for more flexibility and balance that encourages the use of the many different options found in the DW Veterans kit, because right now there are some real duffers (Infernus and HTH, I'm looking at you!).

[spacewatch]

Honestly I'm getting frustrated with GW essentially forcing Primaris on everyone whether we want them or not.

 

 

Same here, I'm not exited about Primaris. The idea of the Deathwatch is to unite selected Veterans having specific skills, talents, experience, weapons and tactics as a Kill-Team that then becomes unstoppable tool of death. So it's not just the tactics "hey, this is how we fight" that makes whatever Marine or Primaris team as DW Kill-Team. Really, really, really hope that they buff Veterans too and actually DW Primaris lore must be exeptionally good for me to start including Primaris into my DW army ....and ignore way too many unopened DW boxes I have ready and waiting for our new Codex buffs 

[Vel'Cona]

I'm fine with Primaris added to DW as long as it's done with respect to the existing Veterans models, especially since we just got kits for the latter recently.  Here's hoping Primaris can go in our Corvus dropships as well!

[Paradogmatic]

Uuuuuugh...

I'm not at all excited about Primaris inducted into the Deathwatch... although I might just be frustrated at the prospect of the scale difference and them making all the real veterans look old / obsolete.

Frankly -- the DW Veteran models stand up pretty well next to the Primaris:

 

[ashc]

Yes, the deathwatch kill team were already well upscaled from minimarines which makes combining them look fine in my eyes.

[Silas7]

I personally have no issue with Primaris in DW, regardless of how tedious it may feel sometimes.

 

However, what I don't want to see is the deeper issues with the DW rules and capabilities remaining unaddressed because GW spent their efforts writing in more Primaris stuff.

 

Even so, it's still early days, and I haven't seen anything definite yet in terms of firm-looking rumours. We may be pleasantly surprised and the core special rules get looked at. Even if it's not top-tier, I'd be happy to have something solidly in the middle, and would welcome the opportunity to have the other character loadouts that all other SMs get. Similarly, I'm hoping for more flexibility and balance that encourages the use of the many different options found in the DW Veterans kit, because right now there are some real duffers (Infernus and HTH, I'm looking at you!).

Well said major and I whole heartedly agree. My dual sword wielding black shield would like his bonus attack back while on the subject.

[N1SB]

Just sharing gameplay experiences against Primaris, then my thoughts on the lore of Primaris in Deathwatch.

 

 

+++ Gameplay-wise +++

 

 

My notes on how Primaris have been performing in my meta, and how they may relate to Deathwatch.

 

Hellblasters you guys already talked about, yes they are popular because they are both good and intuitive.  Often coupled with a Company Ancient so that, when they die, they have a chance to do a "parting shot" Supercharged (since they got nothing to lose at that point).  Our GW Manager takes that relic banner for that reason.  For  Deathwatch...I don't know if they'll get a Company Ancient equivalent...so they might be less interesting to me than in a normal Space Marine Chapter list.

 

Intercessors became popular after Chapter Approved...partly because of the points drop alone, but it was really that people started noticing them (triggered by the points discount).  A combination I saw was Raven Guard Chapter Tactics combined with Bolt Rifles, so they have the penalty to hit yet outranged most things.  It's a little static gunline-y, but I remember the 1st time I saw them that they reminded me of a Tau Fire Warrior gunline, but way tougher with a little more close combat backup.  There's experimentation with the Assault Bolt Rifle variant for a more mobile force, but jury's still out.  For Deathwatch, IF they get Special Issue Ammo to go in their fancy Bolt Rifles...that'll be VERY interesting IMHO, due to the options available I'd probably use Assault Bolt Rifles for maximum flexibility.

 

The Repulsor Transports are just very irritating.  They keep flying away and shooting us up.  These are one of those units that I don't know if they're worth the points when you're the one using them (as they cost so much), but they're just a major headache for their opponents (just because they can kite us).  Thankfully, I don't see that many of them (guess Primaris players don't think they're worth the points).  For Deathwatch, probably the same situation.

 

Aggressors with the Boltstorm hail of bullets is IMHO the most overlooked Primaris unit.  Their limitation is they're mid-range and slow, but when combined with the Raven Guard infiltration stratagem, this effectively negates that disadvantage.  They got the double number of shots when standing still, which still works when you infiltrate them with the stratagem.  So you try to charge them, at which point you're still facing a large amount of overwatch shots, and when you reach them, you're facing their powerfists.  I think I might fear this perhaps more than any other Primaris unit, including the much more popular Hellblasters.  For Deathwatch, I doubt Aggressors (or anyone) will get an infiltrate stratagem like Raven Guard, but they'll probably get Deep Strike, which isn't quite as good due to changes in the recent Big FAQ...but still very nice; if they manage to get Special Issue Ammo into their Boltstorm Gauntlets, whoa, they'll definitely be THE ONE OP unit I'd watch out for.

 

TL;DR - I'll be watching which Primaris get Special Issue Ammo when they join the Deathwatch.  If it's Intercessors and Aggressors, that will probably be enough to seal the deal with me.

 

 

+++ Lore-wise +++

 

 

I had very different opinions about Primaris before and after reading Dark Millennium.  I actually think Primaris would offer a very interesting take on Deathwatch.

 

1st, to deal with the paradox, and these ideas are just IMHO.  Traditionally, Deathwatch is made up of the best veterans from various Chapters, because it is a matter of Astartes pride.  As representatives for their brethren, to both the Inquisition and to other Chapters' Marines they'll be serving with, they'd probably usually send the best exemplars of their kind.  However...it's like the promotion few Marines initially want.  Most Marines who achieve that status would rather stay and fight with their own Brothers rather than being adopted as a "lapdog of the Inquisition".  They often change their minds after their tour of duty with the Deathwatch, but it's like a dubious honour when they're first "volunteered" to join...kinda like being forced to go to summer camp IMHO.

 

So it's possible, I think, that an idea crosses many Chapter Master's minds.  After reading Dark Millennium, I realised Primaris are often seen as the unwanted stepbrothers of the Astartes (also seen in other sources like the Dark Angels codex).  So when a "request" from the Inquisition came (i.e. not a request), I bet every Chapter Master would think "maybe I could get away with sending over these new Primaris guys instead...if other Chapter Masters are doing it."  Any manager hit with a request from a higher-up on some vanity project, at some point, has the same exact thought, "yeaaah...I'll send over this bright new intern I just hired, who's got unlimited potential!"  That, to me, actually makes more sense than sending a prized veteran; it's a (super)human resource issue.

 

Alternatively, perhaps as part of his statesmanship, Guilliman would "gift" a number of Primaris to the Inquisition at the end of the Indomitus Crusade; he actually stationed a bunch of Primaris for guard duty no one wanted at the end of Dark Millennium, so there is precedent.  That totally sounds like something the Lord Commander would do in order to build support and consensus and rapport with the Inquisition; it's a diplomatic issue.

 

The Inquisition, who would see all these ulterior motives, would be very interested in the Primaris nonetheless.  This organisation who is supposed to know about everything in the Imperium somehow missed entire legions of Space Marines being grown under their noses for 10,000 years.  There's a lot of catch up studying to do, so even if they put up a facade of disgust with "Cawl's blasphemous hordes"...the Primaris would be very welcome in Deathwatch, if only to give the Inquisition a chance to learn what makes them tick and judge their purity.

 

As for the Primaris themselves, they have long been Marines of No Chapter, nicknamed the Unnumbered Sons.  Well...Deathwatch is a Chapter of No Chapter.  They're basically going from being Greyshields to Blackshields...a small change for them.  It's almost like Deathwatch is a natural fit for them.  And perhaps, just as the Inquisition is studying them...they're studying the Inquisition?  Spies for Guilliman?

 

Lore-wise, there's a lot of intrigue for a pure Primaris for Deathwatch.

 

 

+++++

 

 

Sorry for the long post, no time to shorten it.  But I'll be looking at how Special Issue Ammo is applied to the Deathwatch Primaris, and I hope it's good because I actually really dig the narrative themes for it.

[Scurvydog]

Dark Imperium also changed the way I look at Primaris, especially with the fate of the primaris space wolf, which really showcases what these guys have been going through, what their hopes are and the reality they are faced with after the crusade. 

 

Deathwatch are very pragmatic, so a bunch of super marines will probably be very welcome, no questions asked.

 

On a hobby level I can't help but be a bit disappointed that the fate of my big DW force is going to be "now buy more primaris". I already have a primaris crimson fists army and now to play my deathwatch, I needto buy even more primaris, ugh!

 

I will hold judgement, although I do fear the worst. GW has not been kind to DW so far and I fear it will be a GK quality codex. Just adding the standard primaris guy, like an intercessor just doesn't really fit with the individualized kit and custom feel of kill teams, but that is probably exactly what we are going to get.

[Prot]

 

On a hobby level I can't help but be a bit disappointed that the fate of my big DW force is going to be "now buy more primaris". I already have a primaris crimson fists army and now to play my deathwatch, I needto buy even more primaris, ugh!

 

/snip

 

 

Well I posted very similar hesitations, but the reason I believe they will push Primaris so hard is because of my Thousand Sons lessons learned....

 

The Thousand Sons are very similar line-wise to the Deathwatch. They are both elite, low model count, not a ton of vehicles (at least in the case of DW).  So my hype for the new Thousand Sons codex was very high. BUT similar to the DW, everyone who played Thousand Sons has the model line.... though small in number, the sculpts are awesome. Unfortunately many of the rules were bad.... overpriced units made for certain that you would not see a lot of "Scarab Occult Terminators" in your local tournaments.

 

So we waited with baited breath for new Thousand Sons, then it hit us like a mountain goat... Tzaangors! GW had knowingly exhausted the existing Thousand Sons line up and could not find new life in the existing line up that would result in more sales. So we ended up with some cool stuff for existing models but the BEEF was on the Goats. Welcome to the AoS line for Thousand Sons. This is where new sales could be had.... so my army had gone from looking like a bunch of cool 10,000 year old marine Sorcs to.... Goats. Goats on Disks. Goats with magic powers. Goats with bows and arrows. ... you name it.

 

That's when I sold my Thousand Sons. I tried the new codex, but where I hoped for... a "Librarian Dreadnaught" I got a goat. Where I hoped for any sort of creativity within the existing Thousand Sons line up, it was basically about Ahriman, a cool relic or two, and goats.

 

I'm not saying it's all doom and gloom. Just my point is I quickly realized that GW angled that codex for the money. They (GW) did not believe the money came from drawing in new Thousand Sons players, or tweaking the existing model line. Or even creating new units within the existing line (IE: The BrotherCaptain Dreadknight for GK). Instead they saw an opportunity for money in the fantasy line. (The Mutalix is a cool idea though.. thematic enough... but it's the only non-goat new entry).

 

So that's why I'm on pins and needles but holding back until I really hear something concrete this time, because that Thousand Sons experience set me up for potential disappointment.

 

Like most people here I have already committed my Primaris models to an existing force. (this in part gives me hope they wont "Goat us")

[Rockythedog]

 

 

 

 

 

On a hobby level I can't help but be a bit disappointed that the fate of my big DW force is going to be "now buy more primaris". I already have a primaris crimson fists army and now to play my deathwatch, I needto buy even more primaris, ugh!

 

/snip

Well I posted very similar hesitations, but the reason I believe they will push Primaris so hard is because of my Thousand Sons lessons learned....

 

The Thousand Sons are very similar line-wise to the Deathwatch. They are both elite, low model count, not a ton of vehicles (at least in the case of DW). So my hype for the new Thousand Sons codex was very high. BUT similar to the DW, everyone who played Thousand Sons has the model line.... though small in number, the sculpts are awesome. Unfortunately many of the rules were bad.... overpriced units made for certain that you would not see a lot of "Scarab Occult Terminators" in your local tournaments.

 

So we waited with baited breath for new Thousand Sons, then it hit us like a mountain goat... Tzaangors! GW had knowingly exhausted the existing Thousand Sons line up and could not find new life in the existing line up that would result in more sales. So we ended up with some cool stuff for existing models but the BEEF was on the Goats. Welcome to the AoS line for Thousand Sons. This is where new sales could be had.... so my army had gone from looking like a bunch of cool 10,000 year old marine Sorcs to.... Goats. Goats on Disks. Goats with magic powers. Goats with bows and arrows. ... you name it.

 

That's when I sold my Thousand Sons. I tried the new codex, but where I hoped for... a "Librarian Dreadnaught" I got a goat. Where I hoped for any sort of creativity within the existing Thousand Sons line up, it was basically about Ahriman, a cool relic or two, and goats.

 

I'm not saying it's all doom and gloom. Just my point is I quickly realized that GW angled that codex for the money. They (GW) did not believe the money came from drawing in new Thousand Sons players, or tweaking the existing model line. Or even creating new units within the existing line (IE: The BrotherCaptain Dreadknight for GK). Instead they saw an opportunity for money in the fantasy line. (The Mutalix is a cool idea though.. thematic enough... but it's the only non-goat new entry).

 

So that's why I'm on pins and needles but holding back until I really hear something concrete this time, because that Thousand Sons experience set me up for potential disappointment.

 

Like most people here I have already committed my Primaris models to an existing force. (this in part gives me hope they wont "Goat us")

Ewe have Goat to be Kidding me. They wouldn’t do that to us would they?

[robofish7591]

At least in Deathwatch's case, primaris are still marines and not goats... but I definitely see your point.  I am waiting on the codex before deciding on expanding my deathwatch or not.  I want to like Deathwatch, but the rules they keep giving them aren't doing them any favors.  

[ashc]

I'm down with it. I am sat here on my dark imperium box and many death watch upgrade sprues hoping that waiting is the right choice.

[Moostick]

I've bought Primaris models I like (got them Reivers already), but if they actually go Goat on us with Primaris (i.e., make Primaris the only viable option over Veterans), I will refuse to buy them based simply on principle.

 

I don't think I'll have as severe reaction as selling them off though; I'm prepared to keep DW as a fun army only if that happens. I'm already building the most tabletop worthless Terminator unit anyways.

 

Edit: I've said this a few times, but to clear the air, I have no issues with Primaris themselves...as long as they fix Veterans too. I don't enjoy being "forced" to buy new models just to make a viable army if they essentially say one day "Everything you built since Day 1 is now useless. But have you seen these new guys?!".

[Prot]

I think a lot of people are in the same boat.

 

I recall when the codex first came out... it was so crazy in here. So many people jumped on board believing the leaked Frag Cannon rules were going to be the makings of the next (7th edition) tournament meta.

 

Within weeks reality set in. All that was left was two category of Frater: those who really didn't play, but loved the models, and those that were just determined to try and make the codex work.

 

We had some original crew here that did some fantastic batreps (video) and great painting blogs. I miss all of that quite a bit. I had wished so much that the codex would at least nestle into mid-teir rather than the bottom it ended up in.

 

Eventually we had some false hope in a great kit last year called "Watchblade". Guess who bought it? This guy.

 

So I have every box, blister, whatever that came out. And I think a lot of us guys on release did.... so Primaris is going to be our logical choice for Goats! But I think the Primaris MUST be good.... if they aren't, no one is going to go through everything we're talking about here. (Changing armies, re-doing Primaris we already own in different armies, etc.)

 

Of course at this point who knows. Nothing would surprise me when it comes to Custodes. I think SIA for Primaris is a given though.

 

 

[mjrwaud]

...

 

Within weeks reality set in. All that was left was two category of Frater: those who really didn't play, but loved the models, and those that were just determined to try and make the codex work.

 

We had some original crew here that did some fantastic batreps (video) and great painting blogs. I miss all of that quite a bit. I had wished so much that the codex would at least nestle into mid-teir rather than the bottom it ended up in.

 

Eventually we had some false hope in a great kit last year called "Watchblade". Guess who bought it? This guy.

 

So I have every box, blister, whatever that came out. And I think a lot of us guys on release did.... so Primaris is going to be our logical choice for Goats! But I think the Primaris MUST be good.... if they aren't, no one is going to go through everything we're talking about here. (Changing armies, re-doing Primaris we already own in different armies, etc.)

 

Of course at this point who knows. Nothing would surprise me when it comes to Custodes. I think SIA for Primaris is a given though.

 

As one who falls into the first category (doesn't play much but loves the models and fluff), I can say you're not the only one who jumped in deep with the new kits... 

 

Watchblade Taskforce (check)

Death Masque (double check(

Start Collecting Deathwatch (check)

Killteam Cassius (double check for kitbashes)

Kill Teams, Terminators, Razorbacks, Drop pod, Land Raider, Corvus, etc... I enthusiastically jumped in with both feet.

 

Do I regret it? Not one bit! This was my jump back into 40k after a long break (even used to work for GW back in high school). 

Will I be a bit miffed if my grizzled veterans are completely outshone by the new recruits? Yeah, sure... but it is just a game... ;)