Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Please keep all posts within the guidelines of the Bolter & Chainsword community Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5098461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 In my opinion, Sanguinius is a rather boring Primarch from what I've read. To me what makes a Primarch interesting is not how many powerful enemies he defeated in combat (they're Primarchs, they're supposed to do that) but rather his personality, ideology and contributions towards humanity as a species. So far Sanguinius has shown very little of this. He's blandly kind to everyone, has no real ideology or opinion about the future of humanity and has done nothing of note outside combat. In the books he's very passive during conversations with his brothers and feels like a side character to the fierce clash of intriguing and contrasting personalities I look forward to and enjoy in the Horus Heresy books. There was this scene in Angels of Caliban that illustrated this perfectly. Guilliman and the Lion were discussing the different kinds of architecture of their respective planets and it was a really cool insight into each other's mentality and the culture they were raised in. Guilliman described his idea of an expansive, bustling megapolis full of trade commerce and technology while the Lion insisted on a more rugged collection of fortress-cities surrounded by walls and linked to each other via underground networks. It was a really cool depiction of the outlook of the Statesman versus that of the Knight/General. However Sanguinius just keeps quiet the whole time and then defers the two others when his turn in the conversation comes up. Fair analysis. Ruinstorm actually gives us some insights into Sanguinius' mindset, as do extremely brief flashes from the Imperium Secundus arc (I can't remember what happens in which book...all blurs together). The inner workings of Sangy are not bad in Ruinstorm, but the issue is that they're pretty much the first we get, and he's understandably got a LOT on his mind when it's all happening (surviving deamonic incursion # 54 kind of does that to you...even a Primarch). We have no understanding of what "Default" Sanguinius is like. Not an original statement by any means, but here's hoping for a killer Primarchs novel or other story that gives us insight into Sang during "normal" times of the Great Crusade. Very high hopes for ForgeWorld's Malevolence in that regard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5100815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Everything he says (over and over) ignores everything we know about Sanguinius outside of HH fiction - to me that is not really saying much at all. Many here have said that much hasn't been said and to make any conclusions on this alone - well sorry maybe feathers aren't your thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 But what do we know about Sanguinius outside the HH books? He was hopeful, had wings, kicked Bloodthirster butt, psychic and could see the future, and got killed by Horus rather than turn. That's about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 To be fair, it is rather hard to have much written about someone that died 10k years in the past from the present setting. I like Sangy. He kept his hope for humanity despite the heresy. You can see why he was beloved by his brothers. The above post blasting him for not talking about his culture with the Lion and Bobby G just shows me a quiet brother listening to his family. Not everyone has to be a chest beater or a braggart... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Everything he says (over and over) ignores everything we know about Sanguinius outside of HH fiction - to me that is not really saying much at all. Many here have said that much hasn't been said and to make any conclusions on this alone - well sorry maybe feathers aren't your thing. It’s a case of being told, not shown. We’re told that Sanguinius is awesome, but haven’t really been shown why in the books (in my opinion). He’s been okay in some of the books I’ve read with him in but not overly memorable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 To be fair, it is rather hard to have much written about someone that died 10k years in the past from the present setting. I like Sangy. He kept his hope for humanity despite the heresy. You can see why he was beloved by his brothers. The above post blasting him for not talking about his culture with the Lion and Bobby G just shows me a quiet brother listening to his family. Not everyone has to be a chest beater or a braggart... It's more that so much tells us that everyone loved Sanguinius, that everyone loved him, but the vast majority of conversations just have him sitting at the sidelines, nodding and smiling while everyone else talks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Sanguinius is definitely a prime - if not the prime - example of a character not living up to his billing. In my opinion he's been more impressive in a handful of sentences in FW's black books (ripping the head off a titan? yes pls) than he has been in all of his HH novel appearances combined. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Some times people just want to find something to complain about so that they can criticize IMO... hardly constructive. There is lots of information available and easy to access... maybe it is not HH but doesn't make it less useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagashnee Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Some times people just want to find something to complain about so that they can criticize IMO... hardly constructive. There is lots of information available and easy to access... maybe it is not HH but doesn't make it less useful. You make a series to explore the civil war that linchpins the setting, a civil war planned, executed and waged by the primarchs. If you then have to go OUT of said series to find out information about the primarchs, well sounds to me, that MAYBE there is something to complain about, and something to criticise. Sanguinius, Mortarion, Perturabo, these are names of Primarch who has been shortchanged. Primarchs whose arcs were unplanned, handled by too many hands in too many books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 But people are criticizing one of the greatest Primarchs not the people writing the books. I use Lexicanum almost every day and it is a great resource. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagashnee Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 But people are criticizing one of the greatest Primarchs not the people writing the books. I use Lexicanum almost every day and it is a great resource. I consider books like films, if i have experiences all the ones in a series and i STILL need to look it up online/read the comics/see the spinoffs for something to make sense. Then the series has failed, and the character/story arc/thing in question is simply not very good. I have collected blood angels for over 10 years, i love Sanguinius as a character, but if i was introduced to him by the HH book series? Not in a million years. I dont need to be told how noble/wise/great he is, i need to see it. And the series has dropped the ball HARD on this. Like it or not, large numbers of people will have any interaction with things written 20 years ago, and neither should they. Not when the company has a series dedicated to these sorts of things on the go NOW. Still may the Primarch series novel on the Angels redeem him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 I guess you are plain out of luck if you feel like you need HH to make you feel good about him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 The thread is in the Black Library section because I originally wanted to discuss Sanguinius' portrayals in BL media. Moreover none of us are looking for reasons to not like the character. He doesn't seem to have people slavering over his every shortcoming as Russ, Fulgrim and Abaddon seem to. The case is more that, when the series has portrayals such as Horus in his better material, the Khan overall and Angron in Betrayer, we haven't had much/anything (delete as appropriate) within this sequence of books to make us feel that Sanguinius really is so mighty and glorious. It's comparable with the treatment Ferrus has received, in the opinion of some. @Loss, when does he decapitate a Titan? I remember him leading a battle against a Craftworld full of massive Wraith Titans and using the Ordo Sinister to crush them, but not that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagoth Ur Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Some times people just want to find something to complain about so that they can criticize IMO... hardly constructive. There is lots of information available and easy to access... maybe it is not HH but doesn't make it less useful. It is not that people have a wish to criticize for the sake of the act, it is that you have a poor understanding of the show vs. tell principle of narrative construction. Everything that happens outside of Sanguinius' scope of interaction, perspective and era (say for example what Horus tells us about him or what some character in the 40th millebiun might say about him or what has been passed down the ages) is not showing that he is one of the greatest; it is telling the reader who he is. Proper narratology as within a diegetic structure demands that what is told must also be shown. We have precious little shown and displayed that would affirm all we have been told about him. We are told that he is a great fighter, and out of all the things told to us about him, this is shown the clearest in his fights and duels against daemons and Curze. We are told that he is a hugely charismatic individual which we barely get to see outside a few, very few scarce incidences in the HH series. That is poor storytelling and narrative, anyone who is familiar with Genette's theory of narratology can tell you this. I don't need to be told that Sanguinius is an amazing fighter, character, brother, leader, etc. I know all of this thanks to my meta knowledge of the setting as a reader. I need to be shown that he is all of this, I require proof for all these statements made by primarchs, astartes and similar that are made throughout the eras. I don't need a retelling of his great deeds. I need to witness his great deeds. People in this thread have been extremely constructive, for the largest part. This is one of the better conversations about a primarch that I have seen; people actually analyse what they read and construct a proper argument. The point is not that we want to rag on Sanguinius as a character, we want him to be written better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 See I have to disagree with you. I have read countless stories about Sanguinius - believe me when I say I know him well. If you are looking to HH well we can all agree there isn't much to go on... BUT if you really want to know about him and just how great he is there is wealth of rich stories and background. I am the guy who does not wish into one hand if you catch my drift. Also there has been a good amount of bashing him for some very silly reasons in this thread. If I have time this weekend I will go through this thread, multiquote them and do a running commentary - something to look forward too I suppose . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagoth Ur Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 See I have to disagree with you. I have read countless stories about Sanguinius - believe me when I say I know him well. If you are looking to HH well we can all agree there isn't much to go on... And missed the argument like a blind man shooting at a barn with a shotgun. I am not arguing that there is little written about him. I am arguing that what is written about him does not show us how great he is, but resorts to telling us through second hand accounts instead of first-hand experiences. This is narratology 101, it is empyrically provable that A.) we have little told from Sanguinius perspective B.) we have little written material that shows us Sanguinius' actions influencing the world around him (We are told that he is charismatic, that he fights against Horus, that he is a great leader, but we are not shown much of it) and C.) we have little material that shows us Sanguinius' meaningful actions through the eyes of someone directly or indirectly involved in the diegetic scene itself. It also equally provable that we have a big sum of tales that tell us of his deeds, exploits and characters but that is, in the context of the narratological construct that Warhammer 40k and the Horus Heresy is, either retellings, stories of mythology for the largest part. It is told to us much in the same way that stories of heroes and saints are passed down to us today; shrouded in myth and halftruth. It'd be nice to see more of Sanguinius in the forms of flashbacks, directly involving stories or similar. His fight against Curze is, for the first time in ages, a somewhat meaningful involvement in the setting. We need more of that and less fanning and faffing about of oh how supposedly great he is. Show me how great he is. I know that he is, but I want to see it. I want to see what makes Horus envious of Sanguinius. I don't want to see just another warrior, I want to see a paragon of heart, mind, soul and sword. I want to see a character who is marred by adversity but instead of succumbing to it, he rises above it and grows stronger from it. I want to see all of it because I have been told that that is what he is. I've been a fan of the Blood Angels since second edition, I've read most if not everything published about them at one point or another. We are not just told, but also shown time and time again how great, characterful and human the Blood Angels are (Think Meros, Tycho, Dante and Zephon for example) and it is now time that Black Library steps up to the plate and shows us the same about Sanguinius. I am the guy who does not wish into one hand if you catch my drift. We will have to agree to disagree very heavily on this one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 TBH I thought he was pretty darn awesome in Fear to Tread. I will take what I can get and be thankful too. <3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagoth Ur Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 TBH I thought he was pretty darn awesome in Fear to Tread. I will take what I can get and be thankful too. <3 Well at least on that we can agree on. This is precisely my point, Fear to Tread showed us what we have been told for years, namely that Sanguinius is A.) An amazing fighter and B.) that he has unparalleled love and compassion for his sons. I want to see more of that (With a bit better writing, but that's purely formalistic) and less of Imperium Secundus involvement number XYZ. Hopefully the Terra arc will show us more of Sanguinius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 I am pretty sure it will. Go back a few posts I found Ferrus to well fleshed in the novel he fought Fulgrim and also there was a really good short story about him too .. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Some times people just want to find something to complain about so that they can criticize IMO... hardly constructive. There is lots of information available and easy to access... maybe it is not HH but doesn't make it less useful. The irony is palpable. @Loss, when does he decapitate a Titan? I remember him leading a battle against a Craftworld full of massive Wraith Titans and using the Ordo Sinister to crush them, but not that. P135, it purportedly occurred during that very engagement. Against this massing of force, the Imperial assault first faltered and was checked, as even the Titans of the Legio Fureans landing with the second wave were swiftly torn apart by the Witch-Idol and its kinsmen, though it is said that the Angel Sanguinius destroyed one of their number himself, tearing open its head with his bare hands and sending it crashing to destruction before being struck a grievous blow by the Warlock's psi-lance from which none other would have survived. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5101896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I think this is a troll thread TBH . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5102691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted June 10, 2018 Author Share Posted June 10, 2018 Loss, that shows it quite nicely. Up there with Ferrus pulling down an AT-AT. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5102721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Loss, that shows it quite nicely. Up there with Ferrus pulling down an AT-AT. Source/quote on that one? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5102931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 Fall of the Lords of Gardinaal in Massacre Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346586-sanguinius-and-his-flaws-or-otherwise/page/10/#findComment-5102975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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