Sanguinius and his flaws or otherwise

[bluntblade]

To prevent clogging in the Wolfsbane thread.

 

And to begin with, surely shame and flaws are at the heart of Sanguinius' character and such a large part of what makes him interesting?

[TheRealMcCagh]

One of the things I'm most looking forward to during the Siege is for Sanguinius to be made interesting. So far his sole defining feature is he has wings and he mopes around a lot. Every other Primarch speaks highly of him, but we haven't really scene why (in my opinion). If all we had to go on was the HH series itself, if he died right now I would say 'O, that guy who has been talking about dying this whole time finally died. Neat. Why was Horus even scared of this nerd?'

 

Fortunately, the Siege will give plenty of opportunity to remedy this. I really just want to care about Sanguinius by the time he bites it, and I'd like his sacrifice to actually mean something. Also, it may not be canon, but my Sanguinius doesn't have those ridiculous ringlets in his hair and a prison tat of a tear drop on his face. Those are the real flaws

[bluntblade]

Betrayer has a really nice monologue from Lorgar about how Sanguinius' "perfect loyalty" stems from perfect fear. Be interesting to see that explored.

[Panzer]

One of the things I'm most looking forward to during the Siege is for Sanguinius to be made interesting. So far his sole defining feature is he has wings and he mopes around a lot. Every other Primarch speaks highly of him, but we haven't really scene why (in my opinion). If all we had to go on was the HH series itself, if he died right now I would say 'O, that guy who has been talking about dying this whole time finally died. Neat. Why was Horus even scared of this nerd?'

 

Fortunately, the Siege will give plenty of opportunity to remedy this. I really just want to care about Sanguinius by the time he bites it, and I'd like his sacrifice to actually mean something. Also, it may not be canon, but my Sanguinius doesn't have those ridiculous ringlets in his hair and a prison tat of a tear drop on his face. Those are the real flaws

 

/sign

[TheRealMcCagh]

I think the perfect fear comment makes sense. We already know Sanguinius fears what would happen to him and his legion should the Flaw become public knowledge. In that passage, Lorgar is referring to having wings and their possible origin. But he should have known about the Thirst by then too, Erebus' plan was banking on it, so you'd have to assume Lorgar was privy to the knowledge as well. He also mentions how Sanguinius feels (incorrectly) that he has the most to prove. I think we can understand the psychology behind his need to prove himself. He either a) fears his flaw coming into the light, and must excel in all areas to make up for it, or must excel in everything so as to put himself above reproach, and his flaw would never even be discovered. To me, these are pretty separate motivations, and option B seems the most motivated by fear. Option A seems like he would have known it's going to come out, he just needs enough in the 'pro' column to keep his legion alive.

 

It would be interesting to see the dynamic between him and the Emperor firsthand. We are told he was the closest to the Emperor save Horus, but it seems like he was always at arms length to me. Whether the Emperor didn't trust his wings, or already knew about the flaw, but was disturbed Sanguinius hasn't come forward to him about it. There is that scene in Ruinstorm where the (fake) Emperor is praising him for how great he is, and it puts Sanguinius off, knowing the Emperor would never say stuff like that. It gives us a little clue as to how Sanguinius feels that the Emperor feels, if that makes sense

[Manchu warlord]

The only flaw about the great and glorious Angel, is that he is a blond.  

[b1soul]

"So far his sole defining feature is he has wings and he mopes around a lot."

 

Agreed

 

Sang and his BA are based on two tropes...angels and vampires

 

Sang seems to be a lamenting angel most of the time. He and his legion are the Blood God's first choice. Wanna see a good writer explore that feral bloodlust.

 

I think Dornian Heresy's Sang is a lot more compelling than BL's so far

[pandion40]

Sanguinius and the Blood Angels do seem a little underserved in the Heresy so far. Lots of characters telling me how awesome Sanguinius is but very little showing me his awesomeness, what little we get suffers from being in frankly disappointing books like fear to tread.

 

I took a long break from GW and recently returned, as a massive BA fan I immediately looked up if anything interesting had happened to the BA legion in my absence as spoilers motivate me instead of annoying me, the answer it seems was a resounding no. Though I’m hearing conflicting reports on the quality of Ruinstorm.

 

If the Blood Angels were going to be sidelined for the bulk of the Heresy they really needed to make Signus better, it should have been multiple books in my opinion. Set up like the Dante/Devastation of Baal books but spread over 3 books. First book is purely for setting up the characters, their all fighting their normal great crusade battles but receive the summons to gather for Signus at the end of the book, alternatively this book could have just been a series of short stories focusing on different characters all ending with the summons.

 

Then 2 books for the actual battle at Signus, that really gives you the room to explore the BA legion and it’s notable characters in depth, pity we’re stuck with the fairly average book we have now.

 

Everyone seems to have massive respect for Sanguinius, I really want to see why that’s the case and the siege is the only place left where they can show this. I want to see him being the MVP of the siege, I want to be inside his head and see the flaws and fears that drive him to go above and beyond, I want to see him accept his fate, find peace and in that moment go beyond anything he’s done before. Sanguinius has always seemed to be holding back to me, I want to see The Blood Angel fully unleashed for possibly the first time, I want to feel the awe in the minds of the guardsmen, marines and even Dorn at seeing The Blood Angel fully unleashed.

 

Sanguinius is held above his brothers in 40k, with his own galaxy wide religious celebration. I want his performance in the siege to be what builds that reputation, with his sacrifice later putting a capstone on it.

 

There’s also a unique connection between Sanguinius and his legion, I want that to play into his death, I want the BA to feel him dying, I want them to feel his pain, I want them all chanting a dirge filled with pain and sorrow over their vox devices as he dies, then as the emperor fights Horus the dirge transforms moving from sorrow to anger to rage and beyond. Then at the moment Horus falls I want the dam to break and every Blood Angel on the walls to charge the traitors at the same time in a berserk fury, starting the retreat of the traitors. A steady retreat at first but building to a complete rout in the end as the Insane BA pursue them with no regard for their own lives. I also want the fists advancing with them, their own cold controlled fury acting as a counterpoint to the BA berserk Rage.

 

That’s what I want when I think of the siege anyway, it’s biased to the BA but I’m a massive BA fanboy and no author so that’s understandable. I see the fists and Dorn leading the defence of the palace standing firm on the walls supported by the Guardsmen, I see the BA and Sanguinius forming more of a mobile reserve, counter attacking where the fighting is heaviest.

 

Sorry if I went a little beyond the question, that got a little away from me I think.

 

Ps as TheRealMcCagh said above I also get the impression the emperor was keeping Sanguinius at arms length, not sure why I get that impression but I’d like it explored if true as multiple sources have said Sanguinius is the primarch most like the emperor.

[bluntblade]

I could go for a short set on Murder, with Loken seeing Sanguinius and Horus fight together.

[nagashnee]

As other have said, the BA so far in 30k have been all tell and no show. We need to SEE why the Primarch is talked about the way he is. We need to see HOW the BA were before the rage and the thirst ran rampant.  See how the Angel treated and lead his sons. 

 

The legion needs its own First Heretic, or Scars.  Failing that a Perturabo style backround book where the curtain is pulled and we get to see the man behind the myth. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

His only flaw is he didn't kill Russ .

[bluntblade]

As other have said, the BA so far in 30k have been all tell and no show. We need to SEE why the Primarch is talked about the way he is. We need to see HOW the BA were before the rage and the thirst ran rampant.  See how the Angel treated and lead his sons. 

 

The legion needs its own First Heretic, or Scars.  Failing that a Perturabo style backround book where the curtain is pulled and we get to see the man behind the myth.

 

Totally agreed. Weird that the first look we'll get at BA fighting in the Crusade will be the Destroyer Host. I should stress that Abnett's skimming of their role in Murder makes sense to me for economy and drama. All the same, would be nice to see a little more of it. I'd love to see MoM's presentation of the Angels on a grand scale.

 

Coming back to flaws, I'd be interested to see if Sanguinius' relations with some other Primarchs suffer because of his secrecy. Could feature prominently with the Thousand Sons and hamper cooperation to protect the Librarius.

[Manchu warlord]

His only flaw is he didn't kill Russ .

That would also be the Lion's flaw.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

His only flaw is he didn't kill Russ .

That would also be the Lion's flaw.

 

 

I have to agree. :D

[bluntblade]

I really can't tell if you're sincere about that or not.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think this is a troll thread TBH .

[bluntblade]

This is genuinely a thread to discuss the depiction of Sanguinius and his Legion in the fiction of the Horus Heresy so far. With, admittedly, a title picked in the throes of exasperation.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

No, it’s a legitimate discussion that spun off of another discussion to stop detailing that discussion.

 

For flaws of Sanguinius, his own self loathing would be his greatest flaw in my eyes.

If he had more confidence he would have been Warmaster

 

As it is, the things that make Sanguinius so iconic, his wings, make him so self concious in an age without gods and superstition.

 

On Primarch interactions, I know the Raven Guard under Corax weren’t keen on fighting alongside the Blood Angels, due to their excessively brutal assaults

[bluntblade]

I think Sanguinius is too other, in a sense, to be Warmaster. He's not as open as Horus and for that and a few other reasons, not as beloved by some of his brothers. Mortarion clashes with him over the Librarius and Angron despises him as a mutant and psyker.

 

Horus, to my mind, was always the right choice - until he wasn't. Which is key to the tragedy of his fall.

[Manchu warlord]

I think this is a troll thread TBH .

 

I though it was an attempt to get you and your fussing about Sanguinius'  flaws out the "HH#49 Wolfsbane" thread, brother Orange.  But don't feel bad, in fact, you should feel flattered, for this thread was created because of you.     

[Lord_Caerolion]

You could also argue, or at least Sanguinius may believe, that the Emperor passed him over because of the image it would present. The Imperium is fighting for secularism, propagating the Imperial Truth, and yet the chosen leader by the (arguably godlike) Emperor is a literal angel.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Horus himself said it should have been Sanguinius...thats gotta count for something.

[Kinstryfe]

I think part of Sanguinius' depth is that he seems to regard how his brothers, and indeed almost everyone, see him as a curse. He sees himself for arguably what he is; a psyker, a mutant, and a tool for The Emperor to weild. He knows his story and roughly how it ends. He then has everyone around him telling him how great he is all the time, and they all hold him in higher esteem than he holds himself because he knows his own flaws while none of them have any idea. He's like the straight A student who plays 5 instruments, was the starting quarterback, president of the student council, but gets really bummed out because he really wishes that he could draw but has no artistic talent, and that's all he focuses on. So he looks around and thinks he isn't as efficient as The Lion, or as good at thinking defensively as Dorn, or as good as administrator as Guilliman, and completely loses sight of the fact that he's literally a mythical being made flesh.

[TheRealMcCagh]

When did Corax/Raven Guard talk about not liking fighting with the BA's? Corax mentions only Horus and Sanguinius could stand against Angron (not that that contradicts what you're saying about fighting side by side with them).

 

Angron also calls Sanguinius a 'fey creature' or something like that. But then he is actually at peace while looking at a hologram of Sanguinius. Even his nails stop biting.

 

There is a tiny blurb in Wolfsbane where Russ says he doesn't think he could beat Sanguinius in a fight (or at least he is t sure). He says he has a buried ferocity and a 'baresark in angel's garb.'

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

When did Corax/Raven Guard talk about not liking fighting with the BA's? Corax mentions only Horus and Sanguinius could stand against Angron (not that that contradicts what you're saying about fighting side by side with them).

 

There is a tiny blurb in Wolfsbane where Russ says he doesn't think he could beat Sanguinius in a fight (or at least he is t sure). He says he has a buried ferocity and a 'baresark in angel's garb.'

My computer died Thursday so I cannot give an immediate quote, but when I’m up and running again I’ll find where I read that.

 

Let’s not forget Brann of the Raven Guard and an Imperial Fist wagering if it’ll be Russ or Sanguinius bringing Horus to heel. That was pretty cool