DA future: Lion vs Fallen vs Primaris deathwing

[solarisqc]

This question is simple and complex. What will be the best way to continue the narative story of the Dark angel after dark imperium and the primaris arival?

 

option 1: bring back the Lion:

this leave many option like reforming the unforgiven as a legion, return of the 6 wing, clash with the Imperium, ...

 

option 2: let the Lion sleep and release a Fallen codex:

-Deamon Prince Marbas may lead the ''Corupt Fallen faction''

-Luther can lead the Fallen who thing they are the ''Repent Fallen faction''

-Cypher can join both type of Fallen and continue his own unknown agenda

 

option 3: Lion stay asleep, Fallen stay hidden, primaris are initiate to the deathwing

 

option 4: How do you see the future for DA if it's not one of the 3 other option?

 

 

Please stay on topic about the best way to continue the narative story of the first Legion. Your post may include rules idea for any option but don't make it the focus of your post please.

[Dark_Jober]

Well... I think DA shouldn't accept Primaris in the Deathwing for a long time, because there are some suspicions that Primaris could be Guilliman's or Cawl's agents... At least Space Wolves seems to suspect that.

 

But... they could accept them because GW could decide to release new kits... so the fluff can change/advance as needed.

We all know some old-marines are going to be replaced...

 

In the other hand, accepting Lion is going to return... nobody knows how is going to react... Remember Guilliman was really upset/dissapointed/horrified and many more feelings when he returned from extasis...

 

Lion could return and try to recover the Legion, he could accept them as sons or use them as cannon fodder... why not? If he doesn't trust in them, he could send them to suicide missions... in the other hand I think not all Primaris are going to be "agents", maybe a few of them could be "traitors".

He could return and try to help Guilliman or trying to create his own Empire with his DA and successor chapters...

[solarisqc]

I think the option 2 will be the best for DA.

 

Releasing a Fallen Codex will help the DA have true ennemy on the table, and it will be better to prepare for the Lion return than anything else.

 

The Fallen army can be realy different than Chaos space marine or Codex space marine on the tabletop because they don't have the support of an organise structure like the chaos legion/chapter have. They can have unknow support to help them logistically. After all, some planet can be control by Fallen for decades before the DA know about it and come in force.

 

The unknow allegience of Fallen can be interesting too. A legion size of Fallen starting to act openly can bring realy interesting story to the setting, having 10k Fallen defending the imperium against CSM one day, and having another 10k Fallen armies attacking a space marine fortress monastery at the same time will cause lots of confusion for Guliman and the imperium about what's going on with this unknow legion.

[Trunkello]

Omg returning wings with the lion as new kits would be so awesome. Unfortunately gw doesnt give a crap about dark angels :/

[solarisqc]

I think the space wolf will have more distrust to the primaris than the DA. The dark angel have learn to hide the Truth about the Fallen for a long time, i don't see any problem for them to hide info to the primaris until most of the veteran are primaris. 

 

Also, all the primaris create by the DA will be indoctrinate the same way as other marine. The main problem with the primaris and the deathwing with time will be the wargear. You can't fit primaris in TDA or Land raider. And you will not initiate a redemptor dreadnought in the deathwing.

 

The only way i see the primaris can be include with the deathwing will be with new kits (hybrid of gravis armor and TDA) to have primaris marine able to DS with the deathwing as it is the main way for deathwing to enter battle.

[Berzul]

The most exciting thing would be to actually see some Fallen on the table for once!!

We have the whole freaking Deathwing buffed to fight an enemy that ISN'T PLAYED ANYWHERE!

[solarisqc]

Omg returning wings with the lion as new kits would be so awesome. Unfortunately gw doesnt give a crap about dark angels :/

 

That why i think the Fallen is the best way to bring back the lion. Make a new armies thay will sell alot of new model and model from the CSM and Marine range. Increase the interest for the DA this way before they can release the Lion and transform the DA as a new armies that will need new model after the Lion unlock the vault on the rock.

[Bryan Blaire]

The Dark Angels will continue however GW decides they will. What we think is “best” is absolutely meaningless in the face of their IP ownership and story control. The DA will accept Primaris into the Deathwing, likely within the next 2-3 years - we can hope that they will get some unique type of unit for it, but to think that it won’t happen is silliness. GW isn’t stupid and won’t have one army go “Nuh Uh!” and cut their nose off to spite their face when they have already invested in Primaris in the DA Codex (one of the characters even wonders how long before they are in the Deathwing, IIRC).

 

As far as the Lion, his waking likely won’t change a lot about the DA organization, unless those relics in the Rock are sized to fit Primaris.

 

Like it or not (and I personally don’t), Primaris are the way forward for Marines of any kind. GW didn’t create a Primaris based DA upgrade sprue because they were planning on leaving them behind for the Dark Angels.

 

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Berzul, what do you mean they aren’t played anywhere? I have a Fallen sorcerer that leads my Chaos army... the Fallen haven’t been an army themselves in the lore until the hints of such very recently. If anyone was playing a Fallen army (as opposed to a squad or two of them), then fluff-wise they were doing it wrong.

[solarisqc]

I don't think primaris will change alot for the DA. I never understand why some people think the DA will be upset about them, they hide info for millenia to all marine, Nothing will change for the primaris.

 

I think the big problem for the primaris and deathwing/ravenwing interaction willl be wargear base. GW need to make new kit for it to happen, and if it's not available to all marine it will be harder for them to sell and justify the development cost.

 

Primaris will stay, they are the new marine.

[Boyadventurer]

Even if the Primaris were still reporting to RG, would he care about the Fallen? Back in the HH, he was cool with Dantioch and the other loyal IW with him. It seems like he has a cool enough head to accept people on their merit, not what other members of their legion did.

 

That said, I don't think he'd look favourably on what DA have done to keep the Fallen secret. If the Fallen really are gathering as legion again and will be operating in the galaxy on a larger scale, DA may just have to accept that they can't contain the secret any more and just would double time at hunting them down.

[Dark_Jober]

Omg returning wings with the lion as new kits would be so awesome. Unfortunately gw doesnt give a crap about dark angels :/

 

I'm a Black Templar player and IMO DA receives much love:

 

• The Fallen and Cypher were the key when Guilliman was returning to Terra, they were imprisoned and Cypher escaped, so there are many Custodes pursuing him across the galaxy.
• Luther has escaped, so a big plot is comming... maybe with the Fallen or maybe with Lion
• Rumours say Lion is going to return and a big plot against Emperor's Children
• DA received a fancy codex and Primaris with DA's upgrades
• DA also has unique units (not only the heros, they also have unique landspeeders and flyers)

I really want BT receiving the same amount of love than DA... no wait... I need much less for being happy.

[Bryan Blaire]

They justified a unique Deathwing kit that isn’t available to anyone else. Just because we haven’t seen a Chapter specific Primaris kit yet doesn’t mean they aren’t actively being worked on now and coming in the future. GW has put all kinds of hints about the nature of Primaris not being as pure as they thought, being made with all the original Legions’ gene-seed, not just the Loyalists, etc. We very well may see Primaris Death Company, Deathwing using Inceptors with DA specific upgrade sprues, Chaos Primaris, etc. and I don’t know that we will have to wait as long as people think. It’s taken GW about two years (maybe less) to start getting new forms of Stormcast out to fill in their weird structures, it just doesn’t seem like it will be that long before we start seeing similar with the Primaris.

 

GW is waiting and seeing how the public reacts right now, but it’s be a poor bet to think they don’t have some specific designs waiting in the wings.

[ValourousHeart]

I'm not sure what should be done with the Primaris.  I understand both sides of the discussion.  We are suspicious and untrusting... but if we don't integrate new kits, there isn't much point in GW continuing our line.

 

I agree with Solarisqc about Primaris DW and RW kits.  They would really need to have lots of crossover potential.  But so far GW has only been focused on units that only make sense for greenwing.

 

On the issue of the Lion returning... yes, please.  I'll most certainly get one, and the forge world one too when they finally get around to it.

 

On the Cypher / Fallen front I would really like to see some more nuance to the faction.  A fallen codex could be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.  Right now the Fallen are a bit underwhelming with 1 character and 1 unit.

[ValourousHeart]

Just because we haven’t seen a Chapter specific Primaris kit yet doesn’t mean they aren’t actively being worked on now and coming in the future.

 

Actually, we have seen chapter specific Primaris kits.  The Custodies.

[Company Master Holden]

The Dark Angels will continue however GW decides they will. What we think is “best” is absolutely meaningless in the face of their IP ownership and story control. The DA will accept Primaris into the Deathwing, likely within the next 2-3 years - we can hope that they will get some unique type of unit for it, but to think that it won’t happen is silliness. GW isn’t stupid and won’t have one army go “Nuh Uh!” and cut their nose off to spite their face when they have already invested in Primaris in the DA Codex (one of the characters even wonders how long before they are in the Deathwing, IIRC).

 

As far as the Lion, his waking likely won’t change a lot about the DA organization, unless those relics in the Rock are sized to fit Primaris.

 

Like it or not (and I personally don’t), Primaris are the way forward for Marines of any kind. GW didn’t create a Primaris based DA upgrade sprue because they were planning on leaving them behind for the Dark Angels.

 

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Berzul, what do you mean they aren’t played anywhere? I have a Fallen sorcerer that leads my Chaos army... the Fallen haven’t been an army themselves in the lore until the hints of such very recently. If anyone was playing a Fallen army (as opposed to a squad or two of them), then fluff-wise they were doing it wrong.

 

 

The most exciting thing would be to actually see some Fallen on the table for once!!

 

We have the whole freaking Deathwing buffed to fight an enemy that ISN'T PLAYED ANYWHERE!

 

Bryan that sorcerer sounds fantastic! My buddy runs a couple of Fallen squads and Cypher every now and then when we are doing a narrative campaign or he feels like really giving me a hard time. 

 

But like Berzul reported, it is a rare day when I come across any Fallen on the tabletop. I'm not sure exactly why that is the case; maybe they are overpriced, maybe the opponent doesn't want to expose those units to Deathwing specifically because they are designed to murder them, maybe they aren't as effective as other units, I honestly have no idea.  

 

Which is a shame because I do enjoy the Fallen lore and the models, not to mention the fantastic conversions I have seen some people do. I am actually ok with the buff against Fallen not being applicable to the majority of battles (barring use of the Strategem) like Pedro's buff against Orks because it is super fluffy, but I do wish the Fallen would become more nuanced tabletop-wise. 

 

In terms of advancing the storyline, I honestly think we'll see a continuation of the Primaris and their evolving role in the Unforgiven command structure. The Lion will return eventually, more later than sooner I fear. Though it will be interesting to see how The Lion reacts to the current structure of the Imperium and the activity of his sons hunting The Fallen while he is away. Not to mention that Luther is alive and out there somewhere. 

[Berzul]

I do not say they should be an Army already, but I have never played against, nor even heard of someone in my city that uses them or has played against them

[HandsWithLegs]

I think the fallen are coming just based on the teasers and story threads and stuff, probably in some sort of campaign book that will likely come with the lion (Hes almost certainly coming, the primarchs have made far too much money not to make more) after all the index armies are in codexes and after Russ comes back (I'm guessing he'll come out with the space wolves codex). I hope they go with the different leaders changing the keywords and alliances for the army, that would be a cool twist to make them unique. Although my one concern with the fallen is I'm not sure what special units they would have. I assume that they would have stuff from the heresy era, but I'm not sure what we had back then or how it would translate

[Axineton]

I tell you what I'd love, and thats some Primaris Ravenwing. GW give me some of those badboys and I'll be happy

[solarisqc]

Although my one concern with the fallen is I'm not sure what special units they would have. I assume that they would have stuff from the heresy era, but I'm not sure what we had back then or how it would translate

 

The Fallen can be the model that remake the marine line. They can make marine as strong as Guliman remember the marine in is time. The Fallen legion can be close to the primaris marine in power and serve as the base for the chaos legion marine that have serve in the heresy.

 

The Fallen can bring back old tech that have been lost for no reason to the game, jetbike, grav tank, special weapon.

 

fluffwise, GW can explain it as the chaos god counter to the primaris by simply releasing the original legion marine from the warp.

 

I know this can seem like wishlist, but the way i see a Fallen codex is like 30K bring back to 40k with some twist. The best way for GW to make lots of sale from them is to make it usable by both Marine and CSM armies. Releasing a legion strong of marine lost in the warp for 9k with old technology may be the best way to remake all the space marine line. This will also buildup the setting for more primarch release.

 

For character, the they can add Luther and the deamon prince Marbas. This will also be the perfect timing to release jetbike for marine.

[Berzul]

Having the Fallen being a counter from Chaos to the Primaris sounds pretty good

[Bryan Blaire]

I don’t think that GW explaining the introduction of the Fallen and their “anything” equipment (since we really don’t know what was sent into the Warp with them) as the Chaos answer to the Primaris and then allowing their use to all Imperial Marine armies (except the DA for Reasons) would make much sense. That’s not really Chaos gaining an advantage if they can just go over to the Imperium.

 

As far as Fallen and their tabletop usage - I really never expect to see them except in those super-rare narrative instances, that actually seems like a very good matching of the fluff to game rules/game play. The Dark Angels/Unforgiven just don’t come across Fallen much, years to decades at a time, or longer. Without a narrative reason for someone to use the Fallen, they probably should be almost non-existent. I would definitely talk with friends playing about including one/some every now and then though.

[Solrac]

The Primaris delivered to the DA by Guilliman and Cawl will never be inducted into the Deathwing.

 

Everyone seems to forget though that ANY marine can become Primaris. The DA don't trust the original Primaris they were given, not the procedure itself. It is very feasible that Primaris made from already trusted marines from the Chapter could be inducted into the Deathwing although that would mean the 1st Company structure would have to change if Primaris don't receive Terminator like armour.

 

Also remember the DA codex fluff is set a considerable number of years (can't remember exactly how many) after the first Primaris were delivered. For all we know there could be very few of the original Primaris left.

[Robbienw]

That's not true, there is nothing to suggest a regular marine could be 'upgraded' to a Primaris Marines.

 

2 of the Primaris organs go in quite early in the process according to the Primaris creation chart from white dwarf, so it is highly unlikely they could be retrofitted. It's doubtful they would work in a marine who has finished growing.

[Dark_Jober]

The Primaris delivered to the DA by Guilliman and Cawl will never be inducted into the Deathwing.

 

Everyone seems to forget though that ANY marine can become Primaris. The DA don't trust the original Primaris they were given, not the procedure itself. It is very feasible that Primaris made from already trusted marines from the Chapter could be inducted into the Deathwing although that would mean the 1st Company structure would have to change if Primaris don't receive Terminator like armour.

 

Also remember the DA codex fluff is set a considerable number of years (can't remember exactly how many) after the first Primaris were delivered. For all we know there could be very few of the original Primaris left.

I totally agree that none of the first Primaris given to DA should be promoted. But I disagree that new primaris will be more loyal to the chapter than them...

Ok, you create new marines via Primaris process. Now they are inducted in the Chapter but segregated from normal marines in every stage so you re creating a parallel culture inside the DA, because Primaris and Normarines fight in different squads and to born as Primaris doesn't allow you to access to the same roles than normarines.

A normarine must fight in the Scout Company, then devastator and assault. If he pass all the stages he becomes a Tactical.

While an Intercessor borns this way, I think I read it takes 1year...

 

Again there is an hugh gap between a primaris and normarine in rites, time of developing, roles...

 

But maybe next year/years the new fluff solves all those problems

That's not true, there is nothing to suggest a regular marine could be 'upgraded' to a Primaris Marines.

 

2 of the Primaris organs go in quite early in the process according to the Primaris creation chart from white dwarf, so it is highly unlikely they could be retrofitted. It's doubtful they would work in a marine who has finished growing.

There was a rumour from a vid... I think it was in Warhammer TV or something similar when Primaris were released but then it was removed...

 

I think people had negative reactions, so they move backwards and changed their mind

[Bryan Blaire]

There has never been any textual/lore information that shows that Marines can become Primaris. That was a statement from a single individual and it has never been repeated.

 

As far as the Marines created by Cawl becoming part of the Deathwing - I doubt that GW will even distinguish them in the story. If they want it to happen, it will happen. The readers probably won't even be wise to the fact that the Primaris was created by Cawl or not.

 

As far as the Primaris implantation process - it takes the same amount of time as a standard Marine, and the implants for it are put in during the standard implantation process for any Marine. The process was outlined in the first of the new Index Astartes articles in the new-new-new White Dwarf. Primaris would have to go through the exact same Scout process (including hypnoindoctrination, Chapter Cult indoctrination, etc.) as standard Marines due to them having the same length of implantation time (4-5 years), hence there being no inclusion of "Primaris Scouts" in any Codex.