DA future: Lion vs Fallen vs Primaris deathwing

[Solrac]

There has never been any textual/lore information that shows that Marines can become Primaris. That was a statement from a single individual and it has never been repeated.

 

As far as the Marines created by Cawl becoming part of the Deathwing - I doubt that GW will even distinguish them in the story. If they want it to happen, it will happen. The readers probably won't even be wise to the fact that the Primaris was created by Cawl or not.

 

As far as the Primaris implantation process - it takes the same amount of time as a standard Marine, and the implants for it are put in during the standard implantation process for any Marine. The process was outlined in the first of the new Index Astartes articles in the new-new-new White Dwarf. Primaris would have to go through the exact same Scout process (including hypnoindoctrination, Chapter Cult indoctrination, etc.) as standard Marines due to them having the same length of implantation time (4-5 years), hence there being no inclusion of "Primaris Scouts" in any Codex.

 

Yeah I just realised this. The fellow from that early livestream video mentioned it but hasn't been in the lore. I thought I saw it in the Dark Imperium book but looks like there was nothing in there about it.

[Bryan Blaire]

Yeah I just realised this. The fellow from that early livestream video mentioned it but hasn't been in the lore. I thought I saw it in the Dark Imperium book but looks like there was nothing in there about it.

Honestly, it would have been easier for me to accept all of it if it really was true. :confused:

[Lion's Crown]

They should have played it smart and tricked the DA into accepting the Primaris instead of shoving it down our throat. Now Azrael look like a weak :cuss, a sell out that bend the knee out of sheer opportunity. Completely the opposite of what you would expect from the prideful 1st Legion.

I think that some successor chapters would have readily accepted the Primaris from Gulliman and show how efficient they are to the rest of the chapter. THEN we would had a reason to include them, with plenty of details of how watched and tested they are. I guess they where effraid DA players wouldn't buy them enough if they brought a storyline that would even remotely make sense for our chapter.

 

All I hope is that we can still play our army in the future without having to field them.

[Manchu warlord]

I think whatever may happen, the Lord Cypher will be the pivotal element of the Lion's awakening. 

I fancy the idea that the Lord Cypher we all know and love in the present is none other than Zahariel El'Zurias, from the very beginning of the Imperium.  Lord Cypher/Zahariel was a crucial key in freeing the resurrected Roboute Guilliman from the Blackstone fortress, and I see him also as a crucial key in awakening his father.  If anyone remembers in the novel Descent of Angels, Zahariel prevented an assassination attempt on the Emperor during the Caliban compliance.  The Emperor came to him in and thanked him personally, but wiped his memory clean so he remembered naught of it.  And so, I just like my idea of Zahariel/Lord Cypher being the Emperor's protector and messenger.  And now, post-gathering storm, the Emperor is calling his sons back, and Zahariel/Lord Cypher is the one that will bring them back one by one...

 

I hope I wasn't off-topic Mr. Solarisqc. 

[solarisqc]

I think whatever may happen, the Lord Cypher will be the pivotal element of the Lion's awakening. 

I fancy the idea that the Lord Cypher we all know and love in the present is none other than Zahariel El'Zurias, from the very beginning of the Imperium.  Lord Cypher/Zahariel was a crucial key in freeing the resurrected Roboute Guilliman from the Blackstone fortress, and I see him also as a crucial key in awakening his father.  If anyone remembers in the novel Descent of Angels, Zahariel prevented an assassination attempt on the Emperor during the Caliban compliance.  The Emperor came to him in and thanked him personally, but wiped his memory clean so he remembered naught of it.  And so, I just like my idea of Zahariel/Lord Cypher being the Emperor's protector and messenger.  And now, post-gathering storm, the Emperor is calling his sons back, and Zahariel/Lord Cypher is the one that will bring them back one by one...

 

I hope I wasn't off-topic Mr. Solarisqc. 

I think this post was perfect,

I also think that Cypher will be a key character in the Lion awakening. I always think that Cypher saving Gulliman only to be put in jail on terra and be the only one ever escaping the custode guard is just a part of his story as the ''Emperor chosen''. Now we have a custode force that is chasing Cypher that disaper, Luther out of the Rock, A deamon prince DA (Marbas) leading some Fallen. Before only Cypher have been identify as gattering Fallen arround him. Now we have 3 Character that have reason to gatter Fallen and we don't have any idea of the relationship between them.

 

I think the DA have enought story for now, the best way for GW to developt them is to take a step back and put the Spotlight on the DA nemesis, the Fallen.

[PhilB]

I'd be pretty pumped if a full Fallen army book was released. I think I'd repurpose most if not all of my DA collection to Fallen if that happened. I can't see it happening though, unless the new primaris were at risk of turning too, otherwise commercially you'd have a whole army based on the old models with no access to the new shiny primaris range, which will no doubt will expand over time.

 

Regarding primaris being inducted into the DW and the possibility of new DW & RW primaris kits. I'm already frothing at the mouth at the thought of primaris DWKs, in gravis armour with storm shields and maces/flails, covered in DA iconography with sweeping cloaks/robes. Yes, I'd definitely buy a kit like that.

[Hantheman]

I cannot imagine a Fallen codex ever really? Whilst I’d love it in terms of fluff. They’re just renegade/heretics which fit in CSM codex. In terms of play style how would you make them different from other CSM or DA? Enough so that creating new models (which takes about 2 years) to be worth it

[PhilB]

I’m not sure and I agree with them fitting the CSM style of play when it comes to using them on the table top, except for the part where all the CSM subfactions have their own Legion heritage where as the fallen’s heritage is that of the DA legion. For a long time I’ve considered starting a CSM army but using DA models and painting them as fallen, but what Legion traits to use? I think if an actual fallen book came out I’d start that project almost immediately but again, I think that’s unlikely to pan out.

[Dark_Jober]

I think Fallen won't receive their own codex, but I think they could receive a mini-codex maybe in a WD or small supplement.

 

I think they should be included in DA codex but, it is true that if you want to run the more chaotic faction, then they should add those units that are useless for DA... so it is better an independient book, but my bet is that they could appear in a supplement with other minor factions, receiving unique units, relics, stratagems...

 

Maybe a book named... Index Astartes/Angels of Death/any other name, and including some factions that have minor aspects in the codex and deserve a full codex (but we all know they won't receive them): Fallen, Black Templars, Red Corsairs...

[march10k]

Even fluff-wise, virtually all primaris marines are non-problematic for the Unforgiven.  It takes many decades, if not centuries, to earn induction into the Deathwing.  And that's merely the first step into the inner circle.  Almost nobody makes it farther than that.  Even the primaris marines that were delivered to Azrael fully-formed will face basically the same level and duration of scrutiny as a traditional marine recruited as a young man by the chapter itself.  It's no big deal.  The only ones I'm concerned about are any primaris librarians delivered to the Unforgiven fully-formed by Rowboat.  You can't exactly induct them into the librarium without bringing them into the inner circle...without having had any time to evaluate and cultivate their loyalty.  That makes them extremely dangerous, even if they aren't malevolent agents of Girlyman/Mars.  An honorable death on the field of battle MUST be engineered for them.  Immediately.  But we're talking about, what, 2-3 marines? The rest of the primaris are no problem at all.

[Bryan Blaire]

That's a very good point, march - do we know if any Primaris Librarians were in Guilliman's care package that he sent to the Rock? The package also contained the processes and materials needed to make new Primaris, so any new Librarian recruit they started on the process about 100-200 years ago (whatever the time jump forward was supposed to be from the end of 7th to 8th) should be "fully grown" now. So at this point there may be one or two Primaris Librarians made by the Rock that would be from the robe fold.

 

As far as a Fallen Codex - I think anything like a Fallen army list with any Fallen datasheets would come in some kind of campaign instead.

[Berzul]

From the lore, the Fallen having a codex would be exciting. An army of heretics that is not in itself necessarily formed from the same chaos units and demon engines as any other heretical legion, but rather in closer alignment with the First Legion as it was at their division.

 

From a sales perspective it makes no sense, and while I do think GW might be willing to release a supplement to expand on the Fallen a bit, maybe in the context of a Campaign, I do not think the army will get a Codex of its own.

[solarisqc]

In the past i never think a Fallen codex will be made, but with the 8e and the release from GW of small codex like Custode, Harlequin, Deathwatch and Imperial Knight i see an opening to smaller armies codex.

 

Even if it's not a Fallen codex, the introduction of a ''Renegate codex'' may be a good way to represent SM armies that have leave the imperium, but are not corrupt by chaos.

 

When i think about codex in 8th, i think less about the unit available, the best emample is Custode and the incoming Knight codex with less than 10 unit available. What give flavor to codex in 8th is mostly the stratagem and when i think about the Fallen, i don't think they are best represent with the chaos codex now. With time, maybe all legion will receive a codex, who know, even Black templar can receive a codex in 8th to represent all the crusading SM armies that are out in the galaxy.

 

I think a Fallen/Renegate codex don't need many new model. It can happen with no release at all and just be a way to sell old kit to player that want to play SM outside of the imperium, but don't want to be Chaos follower.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think you may be too focused on a Codex as the means to get flavor, Strategems, etc.

 

Also, the Fallen have been described in various states - not all of them are free of the touch of or even additional corruption/mutation by Chaos. If they are following a Demon Prince, that’s additional indication that they are truly down the Chaos path, so it wouldn’t be appropriate for that army to not have a heavy Chaos influence. After all, the story arc in the Unforgiven trilogy showed heavy, heavy influence from Nurgle, and while the outward appearance of the Fallen Marines may not have indicated visible Chaos corruption, the actions and results of those actions definitely showed the Chaos influence.

 

Even Luther was heavily touched by Chaos, so any army of Fallen following him would likely be a Chaos army as well.

 

Let’s not try and “have our cake and eat it to” with the Fallen. Trying to make an entirely new army with new data sheets for them may be fruitless if all GW needs to do is have a campaign book that says “Use the following Chaos Marine datasheets, here’s a new set of Warlord traits and Stratagems for the Fallen.”

[solarisqc]

Fallen are changing, both in the background and in the rules.

 

With the beta rule, now the only way to include Fallen is Cypher and 3 unit of Fallen in a vanguard detachement (minimun 12 Fallen, 3 Fallen champion and Cypher)

 

For the background, i agree that the latest Fallen flavor had nurgle taint on them. But let not forget the last info we get about in BL novel and DA codex. They now gatter alot more than before, last encounter with the Fallen was the Massacre at Darkmor, the bighest unforgiven losses suffered since the Forgotten wars in M31-34.

 

The Fallen and DA have always been the 2 side of the same coin, they are link together in unknow way to them and the destiny of each is link to the other. We don't know, maybe the fallen have smaler Rock type fortress that survive the fall of Caliban. The tower of angel was the largest fortress on Caliban but it was not the only one. Even before the fall the DA was divide on Calliban.

 

 

This is the interesting part about the Fallen, ask 10 person and you will have 10 different view of what they are, who they are, how they fight, etc.

 

A Fallen codex was just an idea, i only think the best way to continue the narative story of the DA is to add detail to the Fallen to better explain what make the DA/Unforgiven a special chapter/legion and how they will addapt/change to the recent change (primarch, primaris, custode, great rift,...).

[Bryan Blaire]

What has been changed about the Fallen’s background? They still followed Luther in rebellion, they were tossed into the Warp and get shot out randomly, they still have various views on their complicity in the rebellion (some are repentant, some are defiant, some openly accepted Chaos). The fact that Luther is gone and there appears to be an army gathering on the galactic fringe didn’t change any of that, except that more of them are either being spat out by the Warp or there were more hidden in the galaxy than the Dark Angels knew about.

 

There hasn’t been any indication that all the Fallen are all little Cyphers with enigmatic agendas - many of them have been very clear where they lie with regards to the Imperium vs. Chaos and/or their allegiance to Luther and as above, some are repentant, some are defiant but don’t seem openly in Chaos’s grasp, others are definitely influenced by Chaos and/or Luther even if they don’t show mutation, and then you have those who are just flat-out Chaos Marines.

 

Marbus is obviously one of the latter, and seeing as how he is the one that led the attack that set Luther free, it doesn’t seem all that questionable to me where exactly the allegiance lies there. Luther himself may have taken back up with Chaos since he seems to have been a learned sorcerer, for all his protestations that the Lion would forgive him (and the Lion might forgive the personal affronts that Luther made, but I doubt the Lion will be forgiving of the rebellion, striking him down, or Luther’s original involvement with Chaos - and I’d bet that the Lion will be seeking to redress that issue).

[Manchu warlord]

Ooh, I like the idea of the Lion bringing back the Hexagramaton. Guilliman reinstated the Tetrarchy of Ultramar after his return. So, if he could bring back old traditions, why not the Lion?

[Komodo]

I'm actually looking forward to the Fallen to return, as per codex fluff, it wasn't just half the legion on the Caliban, Luther managed to assemble a legion size force, making it two Dark Angels legions (talented guy, eh). And for that I would really like to see some unique first and second companies to oppose that. Terminators on par with custodes, and bikers on par with custodes' jet bikes. If Cawl managed to muster a force to support all loyal legions, and went to design his own patterns of armor, weapons and vehicles, I would like to see a mashup of pre-heresy tech and new Cawl's designs integrated into Primaris Deathwing. They will definately not fit the TDA, so I would expect some heavy gravis armor, like heavy agressor style, with some plasma goodness and heavy-hitting CCW.

[solarisqc]

A Gravis dreadnought armor (GDA) will be intreresting.

- Agressor armor with boltstorn/flamestorm gauntlet on left arm, plasma exterminator/incineraror on right arm with fragstorm grenade launcher on top.

- Inceptor armor with TH/SS or TLC 

Retrofit TDA tech for teleportation and extra sensor, add the crux terminatus and you have the perfect deathwing primaris unit.

[solarisqc]

What has been changed about the Fallen’s background? 

 

The size of the Fallen, before we had legion of 10k split in half for arround 5k Fallen before the fall. Now, in new fluff, we are talking of legion 100k+ strong. If Luther have rebuild the legion as per the new fluff in the codex, we can have 100-200k Fallen before the fall.

 

Before we only have story about DA chasing Fallen. new fluff add story of Fallen chassing DA both in codex and BL novel. Before the Fallen was hiding from DA, now Fallen are planning against DA with alot of success.The Rock Besieged by Marbas, the massacre at Darkmor, Ulthor, the last visit of the Rock on Piscina are all exemple of the recent success of the Fallen against the DA.

 

We don't know what happen to Luther, he may have been release/hidden by the watcher in the dark. The warpstorm that destroy Caliban may not be the work of the Chaos God but the intervention of Tuchulcha. Same thing for the Fallen displacement, it may only been the result of Tuchulcha saving ''everyone''

 

If there is an armies of 100k+ Fallen now in the the Nihilus sector, we are close to the description of ''The Darkest Angel'' in the DA codex ''They speak of a gattering of the Fallen, a corrupted Legion reassembling in numbers enought to bring the entire galaxy to heel.''

[Bryan Blaire]

I don't see the increased number of Fallen as a change in the Fallen's background. It's just that there are more of them. A "great many of them" became full on Chaos Marines, per the Dark Angels Codex. The "dark Legion" doesn't change who the Fallen are or what they did, which is what "background" is.

 

So the only thing that has changed is that there are more of them, and GW is doing the whole "Hunters become the Hunted" thing. Depending on how GW writes that, we may get to see how many official Dark Angels Successors really make up the Unforgiven (which will be interesting - maybe we get to see how many "suspected" or "hidden" Successors really were Unforgiven), and if the DA will call for assistance/get assistance unasked for. Then we will see if the Unforgiven are called to account for their actions throughout the millennia...

[Rizara]

i keep hoping for primaris terminators myself.

this image I have kept because its the primaris super heavy. The reason I kept it is because of the terminators which don't look like any current mark of tactical dread nought armor, they look like a mix of primaris mk X armor and TDA armor. What is also really interesting and tells me it might be new primaris TDA armor is that they are wielding an autocannon on the arm. No terminator has an autocannon, and its not a reaper autocannon, or assault cannon. The knee pads resemble the newer mkX armor. I keep hoping we get something like this, even if just a 3 man squad of primaris TDA armor, with long range weapons, even if its just an autocannon, plasmacannon, and maybe Heavy Flamer, I would gladly love to field them.

Its just now a waiting game because primaris will get reinforcements at some point, it will be nice to field a primaris only successor with a death wing and raven wing. I have already converted me up some ravenwing in primaris but the deathwing feels like a bit harder to do. Though I may have to break down and convert up some agressors to become deathwing knights at least.

[Manchu warlord]

You know, by the end of the Indomitus crusade, I would imagine the numbers of Chaos Space Marines were reduced greatly. Basically, Guilliman's rampage and the Primaris Space Marines would have taken a huge toll on the traitor Astartes, it would make sense.

So, to compensate for the devastation done to them, the 100k+ Fallens would be a fine move for GW to do. Who knows, Luther might become the next Huron Blackheart, or even the new Abaddon. Abby's done his part, Cadia has fallen and he's getting old. It is high time for a new archnemesis of the Imperium.

[ShadowCore67]

I dont think they'll do a Fallen codex just because you can basically make a "Fallen" army with the chaos, or imperium dexes.

[Walsy93]

I'm fairly keen for more DA specific Primaris stuff, the models so far have been great, and Primaris-ified DWK would be amazing. However, I really don't like how fluff-wise the DA were sort of forced down a path where they would have to accept them.

 

From memory, the timeline given in the 8E codex that had the DA and successors taking massive losses to the enemy (I think it was the Daemon Prince Fallen) putting them in a desperate situation, and then RG randomly shows up with a tonne of Primaris to replenish the ranks. This really annoyed me, it felt like they were really bluntly forcing Primaris on us fluff-wise when it could have been done in a much more interesting way.