Codex: DW next week

[Vel'Cona]

Knowing GW, they'll give Hellblasters Special Issue Ammunition, up their price, and expect us to not notice it.

 

Technically, if they increased the cost for Hellblasters it could be rationalized as gaining access to Mission Tactics, but since other armies don't generally pay for their army wide special rules in a direct way, that would be a bit pants.  To be fair, if they upped the cost on Aggressors or Inceptors those models would be equally shafted as a "tax" for their Kill Team shared rules, though as GW has already said they see DW as a concentrated elite army so I doubt things will get *much* cheaper, if at all.

[Qui-Gon]

I'd be happy if Intercessors went up to reflect SIA, and all other non primaris dropped points to reflect the primaris difference.

[Charlo]

Having marines that can advance without penalty to shoot, unleash hell, be charged and overwatch relatively well, get 2A back each and then fall back and shoot again means that DW are a faction with a lot of up time.

 

The best part if you can totally just use the Intercessors as casualties too leaving you with little pockets of Primaris specialists on the board.

 

Mobile Stalker Bolters mixed with Heavy Hell Blasters is going to be rather fun too.

 

Sadly I'm not getting hopes up for the black Star to get Primaris sized seating. It'll be Repulsors or bust.

 

My real hope is that things like a Gravis Watch Captain is introduced and they give the option for cool stuff like a Xenophase blade. It won't happen but we can dream.

[Ishagu]

I think people should really be expecting this codex to have a focus on Primaris.

 

It's an opportunity to integrate them more fully, to actually focus more rules around them, and an opportunity to drive sales for GW.

 

Many Primaris are now century long veterans who've faced a variety of foes across multitudes of warzones, so the lore certainly supports the idea that they'd be amongst the more capable of Astartes beyond just their physical attributes.

[Lemondish]

One post on Primaris and one that merely mentions them and everybody loses their mind. 

 

My favourite part about 8th edition is that it seems to always be cycling in new players into established armies at a rate higher than those veterans who shelf them. I'm really excited and I'll be making some Deathwatch after what I've seen. For those of you veterans who aren't impressed - well, I'm sure there's an army out there that you'll enjoy. 

[Moostick]

If things continue on course, we won't see you in a few months anyways and you'll be selling your army.

[Drizzt79]

A Frag cannon is 25points amazing IMO, and the infernus HB 20points good....to continue the shotgun is decent if free, and the stalker pattern excellent with the addition of the sniper rule 5pts.

 

Melee HTH should cost 15,xenophase blade 5

 

Corvus 140

 

And those are my wishes

 

What do you think?

[Inquisitor Red]

Just heard confirmation from FLG, Primaris marines won't be able to ride in Blackstars. 

[Moostick]

I honestly don't know what a good point cost would be until I try it. Just definitely that it needs to be lower.

 

My feelings on IHB is that it's just a mess of a weapon and needs a complete revamp. HB + HF sounds cool, but in practice you never really need both except in the rare circumstance someone breaches your lines and charges them. Back line? Take a HB. Frontline? Take a FC.

 

And to expand on my comment on starting a DW army now. If you want to do it for fluff, great. But considering people are starting one after seeing the preview before points cost, I can assume they're doing it for crunch. In which case, they will soon see why it doesn't work in practice.

 

Existing KTs are complete trash because of coherency, cost and transport issues. The exact same rules on Primaris isn't going to fix that.

[Drizzt79]

@Inquisitor Red

 

Cool we will just teleport them with the beacon angelis, and with the teleport stratagem (yeah I’m optimistic)...our cool and cheap corvuses will be exclusive for vets, no Primaris allowed on board.

[Paradogmatic]

Just heard confirmation from FLG, Primaris marines won't be able to ride in Blackstars. 

 

Not surprising -- that would break the precedent already set of essentially denying them any reasonable transport methods. I already expected this though.

 

That's okay -- the Blackstar can be there to drop the Killteam full of shotguns and frag cannons on someone's head.

[shandwen]

Just heard confirmation from FLG, Primaris marines won't be able to ride in Blackstars.

No offense, but how in the world would anyone know that yet? Not even the YouTube reviewers have got their hands on copies yet.

[Paradogmatic]

 

Just heard confirmation from FLG, Primaris marines won't be able to ride in Blackstars.

No offense, but how in the world would anyone know that yet? Not even the YouTube reviewers have got their hands on copies yet.

 

 

Well -- they very well might but be under NDA until Saturday ( which has felt like the case with previous codex releases -- all the videos spill out far too quickly for them not to have had them ahead of time ).

 

That or he playtests -- or someone from GW talked too much .. or who knows.

[Lemondish]

If things continue on course, we won't see you in a few months anyways and you'll be selling your army.

 

New kids forget an important fact and get tricked with bright toys: Remember to look at points efficiency, and not solely on output.

 

Example: A frag cannon is amazing. It's just not 30 points amazing.

 

 

I honestly don't know what a good point cost would be until I try it. Just definitely that it needs to be lower.

 

My feelings on IHB is that it's just a mess of a weapon and needs a complete revamp. HB + HF sounds cool, but in practice you never really need both except in the rare circumstance someone breaches your lines and charges them. Back line? Take a HB. Frontline? Take a FC.

 

And to expand on my comment on starting a DW army now. If you want to do it for fluff, great. But considering people are starting one after seeing the preview before points cost, I can assume they're doing it for crunch. In which case, they will soon see why it doesn't work in practice.

 

Existing KTs are complete trash because of coherency, cost and transport issues. The exact same rules on Primaris isn't going to fix that.

Well, if that's the case, then why is everybody freaking out before seeing any of this? If it's silly to devote time to jumping into this army after seeing the preview before points cost, then isn't it equally as silly to be so negative? 

 

Also, everybody seems to be very quick to use statements like "it doesn't work in practice" or "they are complete trash" without actually explaining why. This may not be the best place to do so, admittedly, but I haven't been able to find a single good post that explains why the tactics system and SIA don't work in practice, or why KTs are avoided completely. Are they just not top tier competitive? Well, that's not important - I'd wildly guess that 50% of this entire game's units won't see top tables and probably end up on the low side. 

[Moostick]

The dislike of Primaris is that the revealed rules show they've changed nothing on how KTs are built. Plus it seems like the only additions is the inclusive of Primaris was existing rules.

 

I think it's still on topic as it concerns the new Primaris as well (stop me if not). But existing KTs have issues that were broadly touched on previously. Cost, coherency, and transportation. All of which is being transferred to Primaris KTs. It is hard to explain, and I think proxying it in a few games and you will see easier. I will try to do a brief analysis, but it probably won't be a great one. For one though, we are pretty bad even in a casual setting. Against any codex army that isn't super beardy, a decent opponent can still table DW in 3 to 4 turns easily. Note I'm doing this on a phone, so forgive my bad arrangement or typos.

 

Cost: self explanatory

 

Coherency: the requirement of the 5 Veteran and Intercessor tax kills a lot of the potential set ups. Biker and JP models lose their biggest strength, which is mobility, and the additional rules they bring are far too situational for the detriments they bring (transports). I previously said the one fairly good setup would be assault weapon units with an aggressor, which solves this slightly, but everything else looks mediocre and suffers the same issues as regular KTs.

 

Transport: this has a lot to do with our transport options for mixed KTs. You get 2: Corvus or LR, both of which are very mediocre for their costs. In addition, except the LRC, you can't really field a full KT of 10 models unless you fill it mostly with regular Vets, let alone an HQ to sit with them. So you essentially dedicate 250-350 points for a unit that already costs 300 points? Thats 600+ points for about 10 models of T4, mostly 3+. Repulsor has the exact same issues. They won't be lower the Primaris costs in DW as we are shackled by SM costs; more likely they will go up.

 

Nothing wrong with SIA. It's our one good thing. But again, maybe not good enough to warrant 19 pt troops. Yes,this can be fixed if they lower vets to about 14-15 pts, but that doesn't solve the underlying problems with KTs, which is our defining aspect. We don't want to be super competitive, just not so bad even a casual game is a uphill battle.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have always thought the Corvus is an amazing unit.

[TheUbikator]

I have always thought the Corvus is an amazing unit.

If it had the power of the machine spirit it would be. Also after nerf to the infernum halo launcher, your expensive flayer with expensive kill team inside is quite easy to shot down. 

[Prot]

The Corvus was a Flyer I lobbied hard with GW to give PotMS to, even upon release. I still used it frequently but it just doesn’t hold a candle to the Stormraven.

 

I’d just like to ask people to reserve harsh criticism until we know more. Plus this thread is about the reveals, and some idea sharing. Let’s not burn it all into the ground just yet.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Agreed we have no idea how the development team has juiced it up to super Saiyan levels.

[Aothaine]

Having marines that can advance without penalty to shoot, unleash hell, be charged and overwatch relatively well, get 2A back each and then fall back and shoot again means that DW are a faction with a lot of up time.

 

The best part if you can totally just use the Intercessors as casualties too leaving you with little pockets of Primaris specialists on the board.

 

Mobile Stalker Bolters mixed with Heavy Hell Blasters is going to be rather fun too.

 

Sadly I'm not getting hopes up for the black Star to get Primaris sized seating. It'll be Repulsors or bust.

 

My real hope is that things like a Gravis Watch Captain is introduced and they give the option for cool stuff like a Xenophase blade. It won't happen but we can dream.

 

I am SUPER hyped now!

 

Kill Team

 

Intecessor x8 (Assault Bolters)

Inceptor (Assault Bolters)

Aggressor (Assault weapons)

 

These guys can advance every turn with no penalty, fallback and fire with no penalty, have special ammo.

 

This kill team is insane! Deathwatch are looking to be damned impressive to me. The only question I have is how are the characters going to keep up with kill teams built like this? Super Super excited right now! These guys are better than Ultramarines, White Scars and Black Legion combined. Then they get to reroll 1s to wound without a lieutenant against specific unit types that you can change whenever you want. I see nothing to be upset about here. This is amazing!

 

Edit: I'm starting to fan girl of the possibilities of our kill teams now. Dear lord... this might put my Sisters of Battle on hold.

[Qui-Gon]

The problem is at base cost that setup is 234 pts before any price hikes. Still...that's about what a 5 man squad with some frag cannons and a rhino can manage...tempting...

[Irbis]

That could be it for previews, brothers. They always mention there are more previews to come, but they didn't at the end of this one.

 

Nah, there will be at least one more, the traits/stratagems/relics...

[Aothaine]

The problem is at base cost that setup is 234 pts before any price hikes. Still...that's about what a 5 man squad with some frag cannons and a rhino can manage...tempting...

 

I don't see that as a problem at all. The squad has twenty wounds and is built to absolutely shred hordes. I'll gladly pay that or more for that unit. 

[GrinNfool]

 

If things continue on course, we won't see you in a few months anyways and you'll be selling your army.

 

New kids forget an important fact and get tricked with bright toys: Remember to look at points efficiency, and not solely on output.

 

Example: A frag cannon is amazing. It's just not 30 points amazing.

 

 

I honestly don't know what a good point cost would be until I try it. Just definitely that it needs to be lower.

 

My feelings on IHB is that it's just a mess of a weapon and needs a complete revamp. HB + HF sounds cool, but in practice you never really need both except in the rare circumstance someone breaches your lines and charges them. Back line? Take a HB. Frontline? Take a FC.

 

And to expand on my comment on starting a DW army now. If you want to do it for fluff, great. But considering people are starting one after seeing the preview before points cost, I can assume they're doing it for crunch. In which case, they will soon see why it doesn't work in practice.

 

Existing KTs are complete trash because of coherency, cost and transport issues. The exact same rules on Primaris isn't going to fix that.

Well, if that's the case, then why is everybody freaking out before seeing any of this? If it's silly to devote time to jumping into this army after seeing the preview before points cost, then isn't it equally as silly to be so negative? 

 

Also, everybody seems to be very quick to use statements like "it doesn't work in practice" or "they are complete trash" without actually explaining why. This may not be the best place to do so, admittedly, but I haven't been able to find a single good post that explains why the tactics system and SIA don't work in practice, or why KTs are avoided completely. Are they just not top tier competitive? Well, that's not important - I'd wildly guess that 50% of this entire game's units won't see top tables and probably end up on the low side. 

 

People are going to be down on this codex for 2 big reasons.  First, Deathwatch have never been "good" they have always been overpriced, and were at their most viable in 7th when drop pods were usable to give them a strong alpha strike.  DW have always been a I am going to table you or you are going to table me army, they don't play objectives.  8th made drop pods bad for many reasons, and in many ways.  Index DW is absolutely hard mode and it can be annoying to outplay someone and still lose, that said winning a game with DW is fantastic in that you know you played well, and weren't just lucky.  As a result unless they started previewing BIG buffs no one is going to get excited.

Second reason is a combination of Primaris and the SM codex (which isn't great).  We aren't going to see our LRs go down in price because SM (and all variations) have established a points value regardless whether it is good.  This applies to Primaris as well, and if DW players believe anything its that its more than likely Primaris go up in cost because of SIA.  SM codices also have the downside of having an established cost for vets and vanguard vets, which means GW will likely not alter even normal vets cost much if at all.  Basically GW has backed itsself into a corner on the DW codex, because doing what DW need to be good, would be seen as a slap in the face to non DW marines.  Essentially the writing is on the wall for where this is going, and its not looking promising.

 

For normal vets to be "good" they would have to cost 14-15 points which won't happen because of codex SM.  Or have a 2+ save ala custodes, which won't happen, or have 2 wounds which again wont happen.  Or have frag cannons and IHBs drop about 5 points ea. again... won't happen, because its getting too good.

 

That said I don't believe its doom and gloom, I am actually cautiously optimistic.  I actually manage to win with DW a reasonable amount, and one of the biggest issues DW have is surviving, because you have a lot of damage output on a small low wound squad.  If vets had 2 wounds they would be fantastic, and Primaris do.  They may not have the weapon options and killing power you can put into a vet squad, but with SIA, 2-3 squads of intercessors are a problem for your opponent.  I think the Primaris can be your sword, while the normal vets are your scalpel, arriving where needed via Corvus, and hopefully and/or hopefully a DS stratagem.

 

We will know more on Saturday when all the codex reviews come out.  I think you just touched a nerve coming from not playing DW saying they look good, and insinuating everyone else doesn't know what they are talking about.  Bottom line have fun, do what you want, play what you think is fun/cool.  Just try to give your opinion without sounding dismissive of everyone else.  I for one am interested in putting some intercessors on the table, though I am not sure I will use them as a KT aside from maybe 1-2 hell blasters here and there.

[Moostick]

 

The problem is at base cost that setup is 234 pts before any price hikes. Still...that's about what a 5 man squad with some frag cannons and a rhino can manage...tempting...

 

I don't see that as a problem at all. The squad has twenty wounds and is built to absolutely shred hordes. I'll gladly pay that or more for that unit. 

 

 

I agree, and then I realized how sad Index DW really is that we now consider 234 pts to be a good value. 

 

 

 

I have found my kindred brother; not a word or feeling I disagree with. And I apologize for seeming like I want to be confrontational (I am definitely sarcastic though). Nothing hurts me more than seeing people jump on board thinking DW will be amazing based on marketing, and then realizing the truth a few months down.

 

A lot of us were burned twice, and it just feels like a third time is coming with no lessons learned from the designers. They're just throwing Primaris with old rules at us to attract new players, with zero innovation. We will see though. We will see.