Codex: DW next week

[Kargrym]

 

 

The problem is at base cost that setup is 234 pts before any price hikes. Still...that's about what a 5 man squad with some frag cannons and a rhino can manage...tempting...

 

I don't see that as a problem at all. The squad has twenty wounds and is built to absolutely shred hordes. I'll gladly pay that or more for that unit. 

 

 

I agree, and then I realized how sad Index DW really is that we now consider 234 pts to be a good value. 

 

 

 

I have found my kindred brother; not a word or feeling I disagree with. And I apologize for seeming like I want to be confrontational (I am definitely sarcastic though). Nothing hurts me more than seeing people jump on board thinking DW will be amazing based on marketing, and then realizing the truth a few months down.

 

A lot of us were burned twice, and it just feels like a third time is coming with no lessons learned from the designers. They're just throwing Primaris with old rules at us to attract new players, with zero innovation. We will see though. We will see.

 

 

 

I have a monstrously large Deathwatch army modeled and for the most part painted (like 4000 points). I have 2 Dark Imperium box sets on sprue waiting to see what happens with this codex. Fingers crossed for me to go back to my first love.

[Delta.Skies]

As a new player coming in, I myself was not excited about PKT. I liked the idea of aggressors and interceptors. But they are an investment and PKT seem like a bigger investment compared to what I was already planning. I myself never had intentions on running a pure DW force in the first place and with the new codex feels like it's just the bells and whistles in a gas guzzling car. I really am interested in the stratagems and wonder about these point values in the long run. Close combat ap hitting rivers do sound lovely but that was about it when it came down to the bells and whistles. I'm curious about the captain, librarian and what they might have in store for the watchmaster. And seeing about the points on the blackstar. Wish I had looked at the 7th ed to see what you vets are referring to.

[Aothaine]

Wish I had looked at the 7th ed to see what you vets are referring to.

 

Just look back at the posts starting around Dec 2016 going forward to March 2017. You'll learn plenty. It was bad. Really bad.

[TheUbikator]

 

Wish I had looked at the 7th ed to see what you vets are referring to.

 

Just look back at the posts starting around Dec 2016 going forward to March 2017. You'll learn plenty. It was bad. Really bad.

 

It wasn't that bad. I've played a couple of local tournaments at the end of the 7th and DW was certainly playable.  I've won most of the games with those guys. Drop pods and formations did the trick.

 

And then the 8th ed came and things got worse. Our bikers lost skilled rider and jinking, so they became pretty useless. Drop pods became expensive and can's deploy in melta, frag cannon, vengeance rounds range. So pods became useless too. We've lost access to mission tactic and formations thus became less lethal. Suddenly the army that didn't has that many synergizing units (barring HQs) had only two or three (Kill Team, Land Raider Crusader, Corvus Blackstar). Add to that the fact, that in 8th ed power armour save doesn't mean much and you've got an army that isn't killy enough and can't take hits.

 

It's not all doom and gloom. Patrol detachment allied to guard did (and does) wonders for me, but I stopped adding them in favour of more pure IG lists. Without faction trait strategems and few rule adjustments, they stopped being worth it really. The big problem is not that these guys are not playable. It's that Deathwatch is viable only as an allied force, not pure army.

[Blindhamster]

anyone else think primaris deathwatch veterans should have +1 Attack? e.g. 3 attacks base?

That would be cool!

[TheUbikator]

anyone else think primaris deathwatch veterans should have +1 Attack? e.g. 3 attacks base?

 

That would be cool!

Yeah and make Kill Team veterans even worse by comparison. I think SIA was enough for these guys.

[allegedlynerdy]

Drop pods became expensive and can's deploy in melta, frag cannon, vengeance rounds range. So pods became useless too. We've lost access to mission tactic and formations thus became less lethal.

What do you mean? You drop 9" away, and can walk your Killteam up 6" putting them 3" away, which is range of all those weapons?

[Blindhamster]

just thinking they should be veterans too. When primaris veterans eventually appear in the game (they should, they've had over 100 years to fight), I'd expect them to have a better statline than "regular" primaris, and deathwatch felt like a nice place to introduce that.

Primaris veterans should be more expensive than "normal" ones. Normal ones will still have better gear and their own list of unique benefits from their mixed squads too.

[Panzer]

anyone else think primaris deathwatch veterans should have +1 Attack? e.g. 3 attacks base?

 

That would be cool!

 

Agreed. They're supposed to be veterans after all and not the basic version everyone else has.

 

Drop pods became expensive and can's deploy in melta, frag cannon, vengeance rounds range. So pods became useless too. We've lost access to mission tactic and formations thus became less lethal.

What do you mean? You drop 9" away, and can walk your Killteam up 6" putting them 3" away, which is range of all those weapons?

 

 

The unit that disembarks from a pod has to stay more than 9" away from enemy units as well.

[TheUbikator]

 

Drop pods became expensive and can's deploy in melta, frag cannon, vengeance rounds range. So pods became useless too. We've lost access to mission tactic and formations thus became less lethal.

What do you mean? You drop 9" away, and can walk your Killteam up 6" putting them 3" away, which is range of all those weapons?

 

The unit that disembarked from the drop pod must be set up more than 9' away from the enemy units. Also, units that disembarked can't move because drop pod lands at the end of the movement phase. So you have to make 9" charge, and you cant have terminators, bikers and jump pack infantry in a unit because drop pod can't transport these type of models.

 

 

just thinking they should be veterans too. When primaris veterans eventually appear in the game (they should, they've had over 100 years to fight), I'd expect them to have a better statline than "regular" primaris, and deathwatch felt like a nice place to introduce that.

 

Primaris veterans should be more expensive than "normal" ones. Normal ones will still have better gear and their own list of unique benefits from their mixed squads too.

 

 

They already have better stat line than normal primaris, thanks to SIA. Veterans are better on the offensive, and pseudo deathwatch is better defensively, giving them more attacks is going to make veterans even worse by comparison. I am not talking about fluff (because oh boy, I have a lot to talk about when it comes to silly marines - I hate them with a passion), but internal codex balance. Weapons with ap - 1 or - 2 wounding on 2+ are strong enough, giving them a buttload of attacks in melee is just too much - because it makes them vastly superior to other troop choices points wise. 

[Irbis]

 

anyone else think primaris deathwatch veterans should have +1 Attack? e.g. 3 attacks base?

 

That would be cool!

Yeah and make Kill Team veterans even worse by comparison. I think SIA was enough for these guys.

 

Except KTs already have 3A across the board (free chainswords on mooks, power weapons on Sarge and BS). Giving Primaris 3A would just bring them to parity with your basic KT, and seeing GW is unwilling to give Primaris any melee option, even said sad chainsword, that would be best way to balance them. KT would still be cheaper and able to take much better weapons on 2 guys as opposed to lone power sword on Primaris Sarge, so I don't see the problem.

 

I wonder, will Primaris KT have option to take a black shield? Or something equivalent, like a Primaris who renounced his chapter and instead was sworn into perpetual DW service? Probably not, it would be too flavorful

[TheUbikator]

 

 

anyone else think primaris deathwatch veterans should have +1 Attack? e.g. 3 attacks base?

 

That would be cool!

Yeah and make Kill Team veterans even worse by comparison. I think SIA was enough for these guys.

 

Except KTs already have 3A across the board (free chainswords on mooks, power weapons on Sarge and BS). Giving Primaris 3A would just bring them to parity with your basic KT, and seeing GW is unwilling to give Primaris any melee option, even said sad chainsword, that would be best way to balance them. KT would still be cheaper and able to take much better weapons on 2 guys as opposed to lone power sword on Primaris Sarge, so I don't see the problem.

 

This logic is so wrong on so many levels. Here is just a couple arguments:

 

1. Primaris have better boltguns, with stalker bolt rifles giving them much more firepower at a longer range.

2. They have more wounds which in some cases makes them more efficient then veterans.

3. You seem to forget that vets still have to pay for power weapons better equipment etc. Making bare bone silly marines in some cases as efficient as veterans (or more).

 

Giving another attack is not making them equal to veterans but flat out better.

[Panzer]

Better for more points, yes. I don't see the problem.

[General Strike]

I like this stuff, and I don't know know much about DW, but it does make Primaris better. I want to use the Corvus, and if I decide to invest in DW it will be Primaris except for my anti tank, which is still lacking. It's nice to use the heavy plasma incinerator with the aggressor boost, but I still doubt that is a great anti tank force. Maybe like 5 Stalker Vets, 5 Heavy Plasma Hellblasters, and an Aggressor. Using the extra Ap ammo on the stalkers, and hitting hard with the hell blasters, yeah it's expensive, but I don't play competitively. I often seen one of the big khorne daemon engines in play in my area.

[PiñaColada]

And as far as I know, primaris marines have no access to invulnerable saves, do they? Plenty of factions have some high ap weaponry rendered useless or at least much worse for a simple 5 point upgrade. I do get the concern people have of the classic marines getting left behind though. 

[TheUbikator]

Better for more points, yes. I don't see the problem.

 

Okay, lets say primaris marine bare bones costs now 24 points per model now. Now, who wouldn't deploy 20 wound unit, with 31 attacks in melee, with 20 shots (at 15" range) that wound on 2+ with ap-1 everything other than vehicles for 240 points? With rerolling ones to wound no less! Now compare that to vets that if we are generous would cost about 16 points per model.

 

Because goddamn primaris weren't shoved down our throats enough lately. As someone who spent a lot of cash on my Watch Company project, I feel insulted. Because after all hard work put into kitbashing and painting my marines I would be left behind playing sub-optimal, a worse version of my army - so Games Workshop could sell more models that in my opinion doesn't fit thematically, esthetically and arguably fluff wise Deathwatch. Looking back at the two previews we've seen it certainly feels like my entire army (that is made out of models, that until recently were entire deathwatch models range) feels completely forgotten in favour to the new release that had nothing to do with Deathwatch in a first place. Yeah great because **** people who collected and played the army since its release.

[TheUbikator]

 

 

As someone who spent a lot of cash on my Watch Company project, I feel insulted. 

 

I guess that's the core of the problem. You take that way too personally.

 

If you would have spent 200+ hours painting and modelling an army to be completely forgotten about when your own army codex drops out I bet you would be too. 

 

Did they fix Corvus Blackstar? Who knows!

Did they change useless dragonfire bolts? Buy the book to find out!

Did they fix shotguns and infernus heavy bolter? Who cares!

Did you see those new primaris marines? Buy primaris! (And a Repulsor because primaris can't ride in anything else so you would have to buy one)

[Panzer]

Maybe. More likely you're jumping to conclusions based on two preview articles tho.

[xenomortis]

We've seen two previews - both primaris focussed. I think people need to chill until the full codex drops and we see it in full.

 

Of course GW are giving the hard sell on the primaris range. Us Deathwatch players that have been around a couple of years already have the full model range. Ultimately GW are a profit making organisation and they want sales. Hopefully not at the expense of the current range...

 

I am staying cautiously optimistic at this stage

[Vel'Cona]

Be cool, brothers.  Every codex release evokes some strong feelings but there's no reason to pick at each other, especially when we don't have the full picture.  I know I sometimes come across as part of the doom and gloom patrol, but in reality I'm optimistic that GW will at least produce a viable codex.  Given how well-received the last few codexes have been, I think they're getting into a good stride with 8th edition and we can expect DW to get similar treatment.

[PiñaColada]

Exactly, remember your common enemy!
*Sneers at Vel'Conas faction*

[Wargamer]

The question that matters to me is whether I can proxy Deathwatch using regular Space Marines, as the former are likely to be far superior to the latter in every way.

[Toomanyprojects]

The question that matters to me is whether I can proxy Deathwatch using regular Space Marines, as the former are likely to be far superior to the latter in every way.

Casual, yes. Tournament or competitive play - seems unlikely. They tend to like WYSIWYG

 

I’m gonna buy the book regardless of the Primaris stuff. I’ve already done hellblasters and inceptors so it’s not exactly a big step. Plus I only really play casually so I don’t mind about points efficiency etc, I just want a good game.

 

It does look like these guys have a decent character to them, and some shenanigans that they can deploy on the battlefield. I’m looking forward to it

[Vel'Cona]

Exactly, remember your common enemy!

*Sneers at Vel'Conas faction*

 

[PiñaColada]

Somehow I don't think that's a motto the deathwatch adapted..