Prot's ITC Challenge: P5: New ITC Test Game: Astra- NO MORT

[Prot]

Definitely feel CPs are worth their weight in gold. With batallions getting 5 now, troops are even more important to bring. Double battalion sounds great!

  

 

Absolutely, and this is why in part I have decided to ditch mono DG. Also this is why I picked up the Daemon datacards. I needed to understand what strategems I could use.... the D6 perils seemed great for example. Also the D3 heal start would work on PBC if I understand it, or at lest the DP. A good smite type ability too.

 

I have to wonder if I should plop a relic staff on the Plaguecaster for extra smite bonus, and now with the faq live. ( otherwise I really don’t know what to do for a relic since the DP comes from the nurgle Daemon book. )

 

 

Definitely going to be keeping up with your progress. I do agree that the Virulent Blessing may be overkill for Mortarion. It was just a really silly combo and I think Blades of Putrefaction is probably plenty. 

 

I wish I could find a way to make mono DG work for me but it just hasn't been there in the games I've played. 

 

I've been trying to figure out how to squeeze some Deathshroud Termies into my 1750 list as well but I think their points in conjunction with the FAQ have made it difficult for me to justify them. Before I would use them after Mortarion's first move up the table to help him survive until he could get into combat next turn but not being able to bring them in until turn 2 has kind of been their nail in the coffin for me since mine rarely made it into combat anyway. 

 

Edit: Also, regarding CPs. What are you using yours for now? I pretty much just used mine in mono DG lists to do the poxwalker farm but now I'm struggling with that to even use them on. I typically burn 1 for the Plague Banner in my Nurgle Daemons detachment but then the rest just end up going to re-rolls.

I’m using most of mine for re rolls now. The Poxwalker strat hardly gets used now but cloud of flies is good. VotLW is always gold for me. I will use more on the heals now too.

 

Call me crazy but with 2 battalions, and still a largely CC list of chaff, I’d really like to get Tallyman back in.

 

The DPis a solid choice but it does cost me a lot. I did find flying him down field with Mort was nice, since Mort takes all the hits. Having more Poxwalkers would be huge though. Otherwise I’m really staring to debate Typhus having use. He’s a buff machine for Poxwalkers but he’s also expensive and very easy to avoid.

 

Still lots of minor tweaks possible.

[DominikB]

Be careful Deamon strats only work on faction daemon, so no using them on PBC sadly.

 

I too have been dabbling with the idea of daemons from my NWO and Caledonian open lists, so following the thread with interest.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I hope you get some success out of the PBC with flamers. Use them like drones with incidental shooting as a bonus

[McElMcNinja]

ITC means no holds barred.

This is my issue, I can't get my list/army everything I think it needs and get a decent amount of CP. Maybe I shouldn't worry about CP now that a battalion is 5, so that's 8 out of the gate. I use a couple for blight bomb and VotLW, the rest are all used for rerolls.

 

And cloud of flies with occasional waking dead.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Blight bombardment is a bit too gimmicky for real tournament play. 11" total threat range is abysmal and any rhino telegraphing it is going to be easy prey for any of the fire power that graces these lists.

[BlackTriton]

While the threat range is small, the opportunity cost is also small, and the impact is big.

This is a tool unique to deathguard, it has its uses even if its not a auto include in every lists.

At 74 points, a biologus is an easy addition to a list. Anyone that already include plague marine and/or a rhino should consider it.

while rhino rushing makes the plague marine an easy target, without a biologus it would not be a target at all, since they would be no threat. It might be worth the inclusion with other aggressive units like morty, bloat-drone, DP. 

The rhino can easily be -1/-2 to hit, and once out of it, plague marine can be made untargetable (again, only situationally useful)

If it is hard to get plague marine in range of any valuable target against most gunline list, there is a number of aggressive list that will come to you. be it primarchs or dawn eagle jet-bike, a few plague marine and a biologus is an answer.

Also, having a rhino with a few plague marine and a biologus is useful to move other "good" unit like the Blightspawn who need to be close and the plague caster who benefit from being close. 

[Charlo]

Reading through, it's starting to seem like there isn't a lot of worth in Typhus and Poxies?

 

Might be worth swapping him out for a cheaper buff HQ (or investing points into the DP etc) and then only keeping some back-field poxers for fearless objective holding.

 

Bloatdone or 2 to roll with Morty + the DP could be a nice addition.

[Prot]

Be careful Deamon strats only work on faction daemon, so no using them on PBC sadly.

 

I too have been dabbling with the idea of daemons from my NWO and Caledonian open lists, so following the thread with interest.

 

I don't have my codex in front of me, but I have to be honest I find some of that stuff very confusing. I thought the PBC's had "Nurgle faction" keywords?

 

Would a Nurgle DP help re-rolls of 1 to hit on a PBC?

 

 

 

 

I hope you get some success out of the PBC with flamers. Use them like drones with incidental shooting as a bonus

 

Originally the need to reduce points had me flip both Entropy Cannons to Flamers, and now I just think it's a better option because I hit so little with the canons. They are great weapons, but without a full time help from a re-roll aura. Moving and shooting is nearly out of the question with Entropy cannons.

 

So the change came out of necessity but there's a lot to be gained I find by advancing the tanks in certain games and I've even blocked assault lanes with them (sacrificing my next turn shooting).

 

Reading through, it's starting to seem like there isn't a lot of worth in Typhus and Poxies?

 

Might be worth swapping him out for a cheaper buff HQ (or investing points into the DP etc) and then only keeping some back-field poxers for fearless objective holding.

 

Bloatdone or 2 to roll with Morty + the DP could be a nice addition.

 

 

It's such a tough call. While Typhus isn't horribly expensive, he's definitely pricey. While I don't have enough Poxwalkers to take full advantage of his buffs, he does pack punch if someone gets into my back lines. A lot of pro's and cons to him in this list.

 

Bloat drones are great, but I think at 1750 they are a second rate choice to the PBC's. I've used the trifecta before: 2 spewer drones, and a flesh mower drone. They usually hung out with a DP (no Mort). What I'm finding is the PBC's are just more resilient and people hate them. The "CC" ability of the drone is pretty blah with 4's to hit. Fly is their only real advantage, but they pay points for it that I'm not able to justify right now.

 

I'd definitely do it if I could.. I just can't make the points work. I'm trying to trim the fat here, but Typhus and the DP are nearly identical points wise.

 

While the threat range is small, the opportunity cost is also small, and the impact is big.

This is a tool unique to deathguard, it has its uses even if its not a auto include in every lists.

At 74 points, a biologus is an easy addition to a list. Anyone that already include plague marine and/or a rhino should consider it.

while rhino rushing makes the plague marine an easy target, without a biologus it would not be a target at all, since they would be no threat. It might be worth the inclusion with other aggressive units like morty, bloat-drone, DP. 

The rhino can easily be -1/-2 to hit, and once out of it, plague marine can be made untargetable (again, only situationally useful)

If it is hard to get plague marine in range of any valuable target against most gunline list, there is a number of aggressive list that will come to you. be it primarchs or dawn eagle jet-bike, a few plague marine and a biologus is an answer.

Also, having a rhino with a few plague marine and a biologus is useful to move other "good" unit like the Blightspawn who need to be close and the plague caster who benefit from being close. 

 

If I had points for a Rhino, I'd consider him. But I really think the squad should be about 8 or so big to get full advantage out of him. But at this point I can only find room for 5 PM's. This list definitely tries to prop Mort up with Daemon allies, and CP's.

[SkimaskMohawk]

While the threat range is small, the opportunity cost is also small, and the impact is big.

This is a tool unique to deathguard, it has its uses even if its not a auto include in every lists.

At 74 points, a biologus is an easy addition to a list. Anyone that already include plague marine and/or a rhino should consider it.

while rhino rushing makes the plague marine an easy target, without a biologus it would not be a target at all, since they would be no threat. It might be worth the inclusion with other aggressive units like morty, bloat-drone, DP. 

The rhino can easily be -1/-2 to hit, and once out of it, plague marine can be made untargetable (again, only situationally useful)

If it is hard to get plague marine in range of any valuable target against most gunline list, there is a number of aggressive list that will come to you. be it primarchs or dawn eagle jet-bike, a few plague marine and a biologus is an answer.

Also, having a rhino with a few plague marine and a biologus is useful to move other "good" unit like the Blightspawn who need to be close and the plague caster who benefit from being close. 

 

I'm not saying I don't like it, I do. I just don't think that if we're talking about ITC tournament lists, that building around blight bombardment as a core strategy is the right move.

 

Sure you can jam a putrifier next to any squad, but if you're not tailor building a cheap grenade squad they tend to have an array of special weapons, increasing the points investment. Adding blighstpawn or plaguecasters to the mix does the same, while also upping the priority of killing that rhino.

 

Let me put it like this, for literally the bare minimum of 5 PMs, putrifier and rhino I can spend 20 points less and get a decimator with double petard. 32+d6" threat range and it doesnt drain CP

[BlackTriton]

I mostly agree.

Its not a good core strategy.

But your decimator dosent fill troop tax and it dosent ferry your HQ.

It is something you should consider if you have multiple PM squads or planned to take a rhino anyway. Or if you need a counter charge option.

 

Strat dosent work on daemon engine since the errata changed all the daemon keywords from faction to keywords. Im not sure how the restriction on the stratagems is worded though, so some may still work. it is something to be very carefull about.

But for aura ability, there is no problem, daemon engine are still daemon.

[DominikB]

@Prot, it’s just the strats that don’t work outside of Faction: Daemons the rest is as normal. The DPs aura will still benefit the PBCs

[Charlo]

Never really looked at the PBC in relation to it costing similar to the drone and having the same weapons. Big cannon is an inaccurate bonus?

 

Nice.

[DominikB]

Never really looked at the PBC in relation to it costing similar to the drone and having the same weapons. Big cannon is an inaccurate bonus?

 

Nice.

I think what makes the drones look good again is that they’re a tad faster and have FLY. Not only can you go over stuff, you can also fallback and flame people.

 

Worth noting that the PBC flamer is 1S higher if I’m not mistaken.

[Azekai]

 

I think what makes the drones look good again is that they’re a tad faster and have FLY. Not only can you go over stuff, you can also fallback and flame people.

 

Worth noting that the PBC flamer is 1S higher if I’m not mistaken.

 

Right. Drones want to be charged, because overwatch is glorious. I have melted C'tan with plaguespitter overwatch, it's great.

 

Spitter-equiped crawlers will do similar damage if charged but then they are stuck in... rarely a good thing for the slug-tanks.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Which is why people take the gnarlmaw so the only thing you miss out on is fly

[DominikB]

 

 

 

I think what makes the drones look good again is that they’re a tad faster and have FLY. Not only can you go over stuff, you can also fallback and flame people.

 

Worth noting that the PBC flamer is 1S higher if I’m not mistaken.

 

Right. Drones want to be charged, because overwatch is glorious. I have melted C'tan with plaguespitter overwatch, it's great.

 

Spitter-equiped crawlers will do similar damage if charged but then they are stuck in... rarely a good thing for the slug-tanks.

Indeed I think it’s an apples and pears comparison, similar but different uses. Especially with the rule of 3 now for tournaments...three of each could be interesting.

[Prot]

Thanks guys, these are all very good observations.

 

My initial idea for Death Guard was to take an army I can actually complete, and then try to make it competitive to some degree... In that order. I refused to take something I've rushed through and don't like the look of. The rest is secondary to me.

 

So what happened here is I really like my PBC's, but I kept getting tired of the Entropy Cannons missing. And moving and shooting? Forget it. You're using a strategem or you can't hit the side of a dog barn on Fenris.

 

I realized by going full flamage I can shave minor points, but more importantly the cannons mean I don't have to babysit as much. Plus I don't know why but Entropy Cannons are not plague weapons which is really weird.

 

I'm almost wishing I could get two Foetid Bloat drones in the list as well! At 1750 with dual Battalions it's extremely hard without sacrificing Mort. The funny thing is in my last game VS. Necrons I think the plague Spewers did most of my non-Mort damage. In fact I would say my killing potential in my test games would be severely limited without them. Blight launchers are fun, but I'm not getting very much mileage out of them.

 

Sadly the Plague Marine component is such a low level damage (admittedly this list is not designed around PM's) unit, and Poxwalkers are too low in number to really shine... this has me thinking if I could swap something... in this list to get one Foetid Bloat Drone running up the field, I'd be in a better place.

 

P.S.

Also I'm painting up Nurglings like no tomorrow... getting a little burned out on the little critters... and I re-looked at those Strategems, and abilities and a lot of the units do seem to be able to accept "Nurgle Faction" keywords for use. I guess I have to make sure these aren't edited datacards I'm unaware of.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I find my Blight Launchers only do well when they aren't the immediate focus. Having a bunch of drones, daemon princes and other things to throw into the front lines tends to shift priority from the ~500 points of plague marines. But if you take mortarion I don't think there's enough point's left to make it work. Also hardcore itc lists like custodes on bikes would probably still hammer them regardless

I find my Blight Launchers only do well when they aren't the immediate focus. Having a bunch of drones, daemon princes and other things to throw into the front lines tends to shift priority from the ~500 points of plague marines. But if you take mortarion I don't think there's enough point's left to make it work. Also hardcore itc lists like custodes on bikes would probably still hammer them regardless. A full on parking lot of spitters might do more against a hyper fast anti dude list like that one

[DominikB]

@Prot, Happy to share my NWO/Caledonian uprising list slightly similar to yours if you drop me a PM.

 

Also the CD strats need the Faction DAEMON keyword specifically not just that they apply to faction keywords only, as per CD FAQ

[Prot]

Thanks guys.

 

I do play a lot of my own Custodes army so I know that I would indeed get fleeced pretty hard by them because my list is quite 'board dominant' with little shooting, or multiwound shooting at least.

 

The funny thing is Mort does work against them (if he gets a chance). I've done a lot of testing just facing my Custodes Core against Mort and he does surprisingly well.. if he gets there.

 

If I were playing purely to win, I would cut out Mort, get more DP's (I only have one in this list) and do 2-3 PBCs with 2-3 Bloat Drones. And just go for a very fast, explosive, auto hitting list with lots of wound rolling, but the problem would be low damage on those units.... until the DP's get in.

 

I'm sorry though I just can't pull Mort. I've never taken him to a tournament, I actually hardly play him. (I do like him with his bodyguard but wow does the FAQ hurt that.) It's just that I spent so much time painting, and touching him up. Maybe I will feel differently about him if I lose him too easily in T1 half the time. lol

 

I do like how the Daemon element is blending in though. I think it makes Mort slightly more valid now that he's able to be healed, and can get multiple +1 to wound and easier access to mortal wounds as a result.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea daemons are a great compliment. Shame they nerfed stratagem synergy because of the deepstrike, only to cripple deepstrike. I'm still really bitter about that one.

 

Depending on amount of daemons and time to paint I'd suggest epididemius for his tally. Mortarion and drones really help build it up

[McElMcNinja]

Well according to one of the new Deathwatch articles...

 

"Fighting a mass of heavy infantry, like Plague Marines? Choose Troops, then shred their armour with vengeance rounds."

 

You're suppose to be running PM's in "mass", so don't be shy, run units of 20.

 

Sorry /sarcasm

[Azekai]

Well according to one of the new Deathwatch articles...

 

"Fighting a mass of heavy infantry, like Plague Marines? Choose Troops, then shred their armour with vengeance rounds."

 

You're suppose to be running PM's in "mass", so don't be shy, run units of 20.

 

Sorry /sarcasm

lol

 

(serious answer purged)

[Bat33.1]

Yea daemons are a great compliment. Shame they nerfed stratagem synergy because of the deepstrike, only to cripple deepstrike. I'm still really bitter about that one.

Depending on amount of daemons and time to paint I'd suggest epididemius for his tally. Mortarion and drones really help build it up

The slightly ironic part to the deep strike nerf is it was Mortarion getting taken out T1 before even swinging by Blood Angels shooting and charging - well DC did most of the work with hammers - at Acon while being live streamed that made GW look at it again. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water though as it’s really putting pressure on armies that are not built around a gun line to be able to compete in top tier lists.

[Prot]

ITC Test Game: Death Guard vs. Dark Eldar.

I won't go into too many details but I did discover what appears some extremely disheartening ITC barriers to 'extreme' characters like Mortarion:

The Dark Eldar army at 1750 felt like 2K to be honest. TONS of boats, Vraks, 2 witch squads, 2 Hemaculous (?), 2 Gun boats, 2 Transport boats, 4 of the tinier gun boats with dudes inside, a Flyer with a mortal wound bomb and lances (I think),.Lilith with witches, etc, etc.

Here are the highlights of the game in brief:

+ Here is the left flank of my deloyment. I make a "V" shape with my chaff in the middle. It's a favourable deployment for me with us being 18" away in the center. (I played against this very DE list with my ITC test Custodes (which I would say are weaker overall as an army to my DG.) In that game with my Custodes, the deployment was short edge to short edge making for a longer trip for the Custodes to come to grips with the DE).

+ I try to force his heavy weapons to shift off in the first turn by putting Mort in the far corner.

+ DE go first (I haven't gone first in any DG test ITC game I've played so far which is fine overall).

+ Sure enough the DE make a massive shift with gunboats to my left to come into 36" with Mort. I have a lot of CP's, so do the DE. I get lucky on my Mort Invulns. I have to use a CP but my 4++ holds up very well. He absorbs a lot of firepower. Mort does take a heavy shot though, and it results in 3 damage, 2 of which are negated by DR.

+ Nurglings were set up mid board to pull him in, but not over extend myself with the hopes of 'climbing' through his ranks with CC. He did move up to engage Nurglings in shooting, however he could not kill a unit.

+ He ends the turn with only 1 point from primary scoring, no points from secondaries.

+ My turn was fairly uneventful The Poxbringer heals Mort's only wound. My opponent cringes but ironically that was the best of my Psychic phase. but Mort did get -1 to hit on himself. I move up PBC's to flame, but the flames had no valid targets. For the first time in months my Blightlauncher Plaguemarines actually clipped something... the Flyer. The Flyer is a good target for me. I line up my Nurgle DP, and do what I can... combined firepower takes the Flyer down so I get First strike, 2 primary point, and I also killed more and own more objectives in T1. DG are winning 5-1

+ DE canceled Cloud of Flies on my Poxwalkers. I then got off Dead Walking for picking up an extra guy.. .just in case, but with the Nerf this nets me only one guy. It's really not worth it.

+ The DE have to get their stuff together obviously. The poison is brutal, it goes through everything pretty well. Vraks kill 6 Cultists, but he doesn't kill them, they die to Morale so he doesn't score a point there. Some Nurgling squad finally dies though. A few more casualties plus he has a guy that can snipe characters and he's trying to kill the Poxbringer with Fleshy Abundance.... It doesn't work.

+ Mort takes a really brutal amount of firepower. Lots of it goes through, he's down to 4 wounds from 18, and can only move... I think 8" at that time giving him JUST enough movement to reach assault next turn.

+ The DE boats are slowly losing wounds but the DE have nothing for all the multiwound stuff. DE juggle the boats to try to protect them. One gun boat in on 6 wounds, and another on the right side of the table is on 6, but the rest are fine.

+ The DE score 1-2 points.

+ DG are in trouble, my psychic phase is deplorable. I fail to cast -1 to hit on Mort, it's mandatory at this point so I blow a command point to get it off. The Plaguecaster perils, Typhus perils losing 3 wounds. The Poxbringer passes Fleshy Abundance which is canceled by a DE ability on a character. And because he canceled it, the Poxbringer auto perils, taking 3 mortal wounds. The Nurgle Daemon Prince gets off Virtulant Blessing or whatever. He kills off the rest of the Vraks from Smite (because I can't kill anything in CC right now because it all has a 4++ in CC).

+ The PBC's both flame a bunch but I roll very poorly, the single wound damage is not good for boats, so I try to take on some of the infantry that has started assaulting my Nurglings. I only kill 3 models. The Plague Marines take a wound or two off a gunboat, but that's it.

+ Mort is in a bad situation... only 4 wounds left, and there's witches everywhere. I try something I have not used for months... Nurgle's Rot strat on Mortarion. I am surrounded and have 4 CP's left so why not....

+ For 3 CP's I use Nurgle's Rot, and roll a D6 for every unit within 7" of Mort. On a 4+ they take D3 mortal wounds.... I fail all but one save and it was on a smaller vyper or whatever they're called.

+ In the fight phase Mort's aura is on a 6+. I do get to roll it on a pile of units, but it never goes off.

+ Mort ALMOST kills a gun boat it is down to a wound. He (with servant's claws and teeth) kills a character that is killing the Nurglings. Not a good turn. I estimate from Perils I put about 8-9 wounds on my own characters that turn.

+ I do score another 3-4 points though... I think my opponent actually only had 2 points because I remember being up 10 to 2 right at the game turn (battle round) 2.

+ DE pull back, poxwalkers are shot up to death (they had regrown from Dead Walking) but are now down to one dude. Lilith comes in and almost kills Typhus who has done nothing.... but Lilith fails one save and takes enough damage that the Plague Caster would smite her to death next turn. Typhus dies to Vyper shots I think.

+ I finally lose a lot of Nurglings. The Plague Bearers are slaughtered down to 1 guy, and I can't walk away because of the Witch special rule.

+ This really sucked.... I had no idea DE poison rounds all wounded Mort on a 4+. I thought that was crazy... a Nurgle Daemon Primarch is susceptible to poison guns... at 470 points.

+ DE are having trouble dealing with the PBC's, but the focus Poison on Mort and the remaning Gunboats rip him apart easily. I use my last CP's to keep him alive, which doesn't work anyway. He dies within 7" of a LOT of stuff, but fails to roll a 4+ ... it feels like Nurgle's Rot all over again. Mort goes down with a wimper after damaging a Gunboat, and kililng Hemaculous all game.

+ I have my turn, but then concede. He has two boats with one wound, it takes everything I have to kill one of them. I have no chaff left, my characters are all almost dead, the Nurgle DP suffered perils and took 3 wounds. (He killed the boat that Mort couldn't finish off). The PBC's rolled a 1+2 for flamers killing one guy. The other PBC put everything it had into a Vyper and killed it but the contents poured out just fine.

+ I admit I conceded because as far as I can tell we just figured out the biggest reason why you can't take Mort to an ITC event:

Kingslayer: Earn 1 point for every 2 wounds of damage it loses cumulatively. (plus regained wounds.)

From that alone, my opponent went from 2 points to to 11 points in one turn. (We were tied even though I out scored him every turn, and every battle round).

Note: IF fleshy abundance would have actually worked more than one turn in the game on Mort, this would have worked against me. (there's no way D3 wounds a turn is saving him from lance shots all game, but it would have spoon fed extra scoring.)

Secondly (and we could not figure this out): Kingslayer: If the model selected has the Character and Vehicle or Monster keywords, you earn an extra point for every 4 wounds it loses.

We didn't even count that because we could not figure out if you PICK ONE or ALL come into effect????

IF these both come into effect than it makes Mort an even larger liability giving up a minimum of 13 Points!

+EDIT+

The whole thing just didn't make sense to me. So this morning I re-read all the scoring sheets, and I came across the following:

Secondary Missions: Any time Scoring.

Each player MAY score UP TO 4pts for each of the following Secondary Missions (for a total of 12 (points) between the three they've chosen.

Stupid me... I even remembered that before the game.

Not sure what to do now though. The DE thoroughly flogged this list!

Overall the game was solidly played I felt. Mort MUST have his bodyguard I think to be valid in this scoring system. At 1750 with dual Battalions I can't seem to make them fit PLUS the FAQ severely hurts this mechanism.