Prot's ITC Challenge: P5: New ITC Test Game: Astra- NO MORT

[Prot]

Ohhhhh I'm really aware of DE. My one buddy basically has an inexhaustible horde of 2nd ed eldar models of every type, so I get to go up against all sorts of things. Talos spam, reaper spam, wracks, kabalites, count as corsairs, shining spears, etc... the only time I've reliably beaten his list was with pre CA Cerberus and scorpii. It also helps that he consistently gets key rules wrong and I don't check him enough, but you know.

 

Are you planning on running a big Daemon Prince, drone, PBC parking lot?

 

Well it never started out that way but it's definitely steering in that direction.

 

I pull out Mort and I can get more bang out of the other units. I just made my next test list with dual Battalion, dual DP's, dual PBCs, dual Drones. It still has feet on the ground and enough to get a Rhino for characters/Plaguemarines to reduce the drop count significantly. It's definitely a more flexible list, just far less glamorous.

Not neccisarily, it costs you a CP, but you can take on as an Auxilliary Support Detachment.

 

If I read correctly Prot's running a DG detachment and Demon Detachment so far.  He would still be within the 3 Detachment rule.

 

As to the Strat, If the Helldrake has the Nurgle and Death Guard Faction Key words, why wouldn't it work?

 

Death guard/ Nurgle Heldrake?

[Checkmate77]

Why not?

 

The Helldrake Faction Key words are: Chaos <Mark of Chaos>, Heretic Astartes, <Legion>

 

So why can't it be a Nurgle (Mark of Chaos), Death Guard (Legion) Helldrake?

[Charlo]

Why not?

 

The Helldrake Faction Key words are: Chaos <Mark of Chaos>, Heretic Astartes, <Legion>

 

So why can't it be a Nurgle (Mark of Chaos), Death Guard (Legion) Helldrake?

 

Because of DA ROOLZ ya zoggin' GIT!  (sorry just wanted to be Orky!)

 

The Heldrake is a Chaos Space Marine Unit and can only be given Key Words that are in it's Codex or your own <LEGION>.

 

The Chaos Marine Codex specifically forbids the DG & 1KSons from using the units, as they have their own 'dex.

 

There would be grounds for a Death Guard Heldrake if the option was in the index, but it is not in their list of allowed units (same as Maulerfiend for example).

 

You'd need a seperate <CHAOS SPACE MARINES/ HERETIC ASTARTED> Detachment to take it. It could still be <NURGLE>, but would be a different <LEGION>

[SkimaskMohawk]

Because you can't make Heldrakes deathguard...

 

Prot also has 3 detachments. Deathguard, daemon and superheavy

[Checkmate77]

I knew it was to good to be true.

 

Thanks for the clarification guys.

[Azekai]

Not sure I would want to bring a heldrake to a tourney anyway. Shooting is king in competitive and as cool as fiery dragon-daemons are, they tend to die really quick to lascannons.

I have a sneaking suspicion that one of the strongest things Death Guard (or Chaos) can do is to daemon prince spam, but if that actually sees success it will just get target-nerfed like the Tau commanders.

[Checkmate77]

I know what you mean.  My thought was that the Heldrake would take some heat off of Mortarion and thus allow him to actually get stuck in and do some damage. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

T'au got target nerfed before rule of three. I don't think they'd be a problem with that limit, and don't see how Daemon princes would get restricted if flyrants got off with a points increase

 

Also prot I'd reccommend epidemius if you have all those. The increase in strength can be very handy for all of them

[Prot]

T'au got target nerfed before rule of three. I don't think they'd be a problem with that limit, and don't see how Daemon princes would get restricted if flyrants got off with a points increase

 

Also prot I'd reccommend epidemius if you have all those. The increase in strength can be very handy for all of them

 

I wish. If this goes through I'll be lucky to have time to paint it all anyway. Seriously dumping Mort and the Bodyguard kind of make this very difficult.

 

I just realized I've not been using Locus of Virulence. Does that kick in for PBC's too? Like Fleshy Abundance would?

 

Also noted the Poxbringer has a Nurgle Locus... is that within the Daemon codex only? (I find the faction key word stuff super confusing).

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea I can understand the confusion since they basically screwed with how keywords work with the Daemon book exclusively.

 

For stratagems involving the Daemon book, any Daemon keyword needs to be Faction.

 

For anything else, including psychic powers or datasheet abilities, Daemon just needs to be present as any form of keywords.

 

So yes, the poxbringers locus affects PBCs (one of the reasons the synergy is good because of the plaguespitter mechanic), as would any wounds of 6+ for locus of virulence.

[Prot]

Thank you. Man that is cool....

 

The non-Mort list has 2 DP's one is DG for the cool stuff like Warp time, Suppurating plate. The other DP is Nurgle for Miasma which works on nearly my entire DG list except the troops. But now that I know the Nurgle DP would have Locus of Virulence, that's a nice little bonus. I'll be much more focused on advancing the Poxbringer up with the PBC's and Drones... heck even Nurglings.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea, it's why the Daemon engine list (aka old PBC list) was crazy good, as you got up to str and t 9 on the PBC after a few kills with epidemius on the field, while also getting virulence procs and gnarlmaw fallback and shoot

[Prot]

I think this is going to be my last kick at it with DG.

 

I have another ITC game lined up. It's probably Chaos Soup or Astra again. (Hellblade tank plausible... hellhammer? Super heavy... does 3D6 S10 shots base 3 damage, 4 hvy flamers, lascannons 20 something wounds). I must have rocks for brains... but I want to keep Mort.

 

So this will be my last kick if I can't get any traction with the army yet. I may go to a shooty army and join the cool kids.

[Vilicate]

I've been using the locus quite a bit - it really ups the hitting power of the tanks against vehicles.  The synergy between the books is crazy strong.  It feels so much fun; but, that being said, sometimes I know I'm forgetting things because there is so much going on between like 20 different auras etc.

 

The sad reality is that big single models, even ones as tough as Morty, just aren't really viable right now.  I'm not sure what kinds of changes need to be made to keep them in the games (because they're so rad!!!!), but there it is.  Typically my experience shows me that Morty makes a first turn charge into something with warp time, but is so far out of reach of everything he just dies to the counter attack.

 

I don't know though; keep playing it the way that you want.  I find that some of choices are often not "optimal" and I still do pretty good with that stuff.  Good luck dude!

[Prot]

I've been using the locus quite a bit - it really ups the hitting power of the tanks against vehicles.  The synergy between the books is crazy strong.  It feels so much fun; but, that being said, sometimes I know I'm forgetting things because there is so much going on between like 20 different auras etc.

 

 

 

 

Yea, I'm realizing that. I've largely been Mono-DG. And it's because I just really like the line troop mentality and love CSM. Morty was so fun to paint, but without him I can increase that Synergy.

 

As I mentioned earlier I didn't realize the Nurgle Virulence thingy works with the character Locus, making the PBC/DP's/Bloat drones work even better. 

 

It does require I have a big ol' lump o' Nurgle walking together, but that's okay. 

 

The sad reality is that big single models, even ones as tough as Morty, just aren't really viable right now.  I'm not sure what kinds of changes need to be made to keep them in the games (because they're so rad!!!!), but there it is.  Typically my experience shows me that Morty makes a first turn charge into something with warp time, but is so far out of reach of everything he just dies to the counter attack.

 

I know you're right. It's just me being stubborn. I play a lot of games, but only a few guys I know are pretty much always playing cut throat ITC type of lists, and I fair okay, even with what I admit are non-optimal lists. 

 

But it's one thing to have a night where I take a beating because....  I Just want to see how 3 Blight Haulers work with 20 Plague Marines, vs a whole weekend of putting Mort away in 1.5 turns until I'm on the 'kid's table' laying the beat down on Rainbow marines.... Not a great feeling, and little Jimmy won't like it either. lol

 

Seriously though I did get mileage out of the Deathshroud, with poison lists I"m fighting, I seriously realized the Deathshroud are superior to Morty in those match ups right off the hop.

 

The thing is at 1750 Mort is... 470, plus 180 for the guard... wow we're talking 650 pts for 4 models and not a shot will be fired from them (for the most part). That leaves me 1100 points to come up with CP's to keep the whole thing alive, and actually present a threat to my opponent after T1-2.

 

My non-Mort list.... I have no idea how I'm going to take down something like that Super Heavy Hellhammer I mentioned above.... So far I see myself having at least one DP, and a fair amount of autohitting flamers, but nothing that's capable of ripping super heavies.

 

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

 

The sad reality is that big single models, even ones as tough as Morty, just aren't really viable right now.  I'm not sure what kinds of changes need to be made to keep them in the games (because they're so rad!!!!), but there it is.  Typically my experience shows me that Morty makes a first turn charge into something with warp time, but is so far out of reach of everything he just dies to the counter attack.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So I just finished a game with my mortartion+magnus list, and if my rolling had been a little bit worse or my opponent's a little better I would have lost mortarion to a tzeentch obilterator bomb. That being said, he would have only had a fluxmaster, changeling, chaos lord, daemon prince and 3 units of obliterators left at the start of his turn 2

[Prot]

Tzeentch oblit bomb? You don’t see that much. I do face the cacophony Oblits a lot and they’re brutal.

 

So I know how they can neuter an army in a turn in multiples... would you say the FAQ saved you?

 

And Mort was his first target, not Magnus? Who got first turn?

[Azekai]

I, too, am curious about the particulars of this battle, and would like to hear Skimask storytime.

[Prot]

 

I don't know though; keep playing it the way that you want.  I find that some of choices are often not "optimal" and I still do pretty good with that stuff.  Good luck dude!

 

I will say one thing about mort though... I've been saying this part since testing for the ITC event: his bodyguard can be a real party pooper for your opponents.

 

The thing I'm trying to keep in mind that 2-3 of the opponents I faced are super optimized to bring down big, expensive, destructive units.

 

In some of those situations I have real difficulty against massive parking lot type lists (be it Nid monster mash or IG parking lot). Once Mort is gone. Although I don't know that any of my DG lists are well equipped for that kind of target... flamers are nice, but unless I'm playing against chaff I don't know.

[Checkmate77]

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you on your next Battle Prot.  It will be a sad day if we (Death Guard) lost you, but I can understand your frustration.

 

Hopefully Morty will shine in this next game (happy you're keeping him in), I know he's not the most competitive option but still.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So I'm fairly unfamiliar with tzeentch and what makes a good list so I don't know the relative strength, but he's bringing this to a 64 person tournament at the start of June. Only difference is that two units of obits were tzeentch instead of 2 being slaanesh

 

Detachment #1 - Battalion - Tzeentch Daemons

 

Fluxmaster 99 (WARLORD) -- 5

- WARLORD TRAIT: Daemonspark

Changeling 100 -- 5

2x 30x Horrors w icon, instrument -- 12

1x 20x Horrors w icon -- 8

-- 30 PL

 

Detachment #2 - Battalion - 1K Sons

 

2x Daemon Princes w wings, 2x malefic talons -- 2*8 16

- RELIC: The Impossible Robe

- EXTRA RELIC (-1CP): Helm of The Third Eye

3x 10x Cultists 40 -- 3*3 9

-- 25 PL

 

Detachment #3 - Spearhead - Alpha Legion

 

Chaos Lord w jump pack, powerfist (Slaanesh) -- 6

3x 3x Obliterators (1x Tz, 2x Slaanesh) -- 3*10 30

-- 36 PL

 

I went first with hammer and anvil deployment. He had cultists screening the horrors, the unit of 20 in deepstrike as well as all the csm detachment. Miasma on mort,warptime on mort, blades on mort, weaver of fates on magnus. Magnus smite on one chafscreen.

 

Shooting phase I used nurgles rot on mort, reducing the one screen to a guy and killing three from the second unit in the way, phosphex bombed the second with 11 shots, killed them. On my left flank I had advanced my three units of plaguemarines and they killed 5 horrors of his second unit with BlightLaunchers

 

Charged the horrors as he had nothing blocking the landing zone anymore. He used +1 invul strat. Aura killed 3; blades of purification killed 8, rest of the melee attacks killed 5. He used the strat to not die from morale.

 

His turn he brought his oblits down in his dz. I denied flickering fire and prescience. He uses votlw on the slaanesh ones. Some pretty poor rolling for the rng on the guns and very good see rolls from me offset his excellent rolls to hit and wound. Combined with a few pot shots from cultists and previous overwatch and mortarion is down to 4 wounds. The horrors facing off on the other flank nuke my screening cultists in front of the Plague marines.

 

My turn two, I move my Daemon Prince and two drones up close to mortarion to assist in mopping up the cultists and horrors, plaguemarines move forward, magnus moves closer to the left flank. Psychic phase; flank horrors death hexd and magnus smited, miasma denied, blades on mortarion weaver of fates on magnus, stratagem for warptime on magnus. Shooting; my plague marines burn down the horrors that now lack a save, cultists get droned. Magnus kills his Daemon Prince with the helm in melee, mortarion finishes off the other horrors. He calls it.

 

It's kind of a broad strokes, let me know if anything was unclear (especially deployment, movement things). Basically by turn two he had burnt 13 or so command points (he started with 18 and got one back literally every time I used a strat with his relic) and was down to 8 of them, without having killed mortarion yet, while also having no scoring ability as he only had slow oblits left really.

[Prot]

It sounds pretty straight forward.

 

I know a guy that always brings pure Tzeentch, Fateweaver and Maggie, but never Mort.

 

I've seen a few batreps using them both. It's kind of funny to me how much of a gamble that list feels like.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It is, though if you keep your drops low the gamble is more in your favour.

 

And yea the deepstrike changes helped for sure, let me do some damage and control the board and also be in position to shut down key powers.

 

It is a gimmick list in most senses and can be punished pretty hard

[Checkmate77]

It seems to be working for you though.  Papa Nurgle seems to be smiling on you bacause most of your Battreps you post (thanks by the way I learn a lot from them) Mortarion seems to be kicking ass.

[Prot]

So I had another test game, I threw the Mort list out the window, and I went dual detachment, DG + Nurgle. (Light on the Nurgle,)
 
I played an ITC Astra List in the Cut to the Heart scenario.
 
I did a more thorough game review on my blog, the post is <HERE>
 
If you do not want to see pics, and descriptions, here is the result:

Death Guard win, with Astra conceding in turn 4. It was a very bizarre game.
We had trouble damaging each other, and he brought a Hellhammer to the game.
It was very touch and go until T4.

 

Still uncertain. This is a very complicated list to play. Lots of psychic, overlapping rules, and overlapping Aura's to make it all click.

 

I have a much simpler AdMech/Custodes list which is a lot easier to play and has far less nuances to it. Plus my DG list now features a lot of models I have to paint in...oh about 1 week! lol