Prot's ITC Challenge: P5: New ITC Test Game: Astra- NO MORT

[Checkmate77]

Sorry for your loss Prot, but definitely a lot of good lessons learned here.

 

As much as I hate to say it...maybe removing Mortarion is the way to go?  At 1750 Points, having to spend a ton for Mortarion AND a dedicated Bodyguard seems a bit steep.

[Clincher37]

I'm sorry to hear that went so poorly for you Prot.

 

Sadly, I have to agree with Checkmate here. Because you WILL see DE at your tournament and it sounds like his list wasn't even as scary as it could have been. If the player had been all Kabal and forgone the Cult and Coven units, Mortarion would've been dead turn 1 for sure and a good Tau gunline which you will definitely see as well can also easily kill Mortarion in turn 1.

 

It really depends on what kind of experience you're looking to have. If you concede that Mortarion is probably going to die turn 1 every game and you're fine with that then by all means, bring him and have fun. But if you want to be able to compete with armies like Tau and DE, you may want to find another use for your near 500 points.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea DE are pretty rough. They're extremely cheaply costed and the poison hurts against our non vehicles.

 

I might suggest using your Daemon Prince as an index one, since the index deathguard have access to the csm prince, and that one has different options for Wargear. You lose DR but gain access to warptime to boost mortarion into assault and aura range

[Prot]

Sorry for your loss Prot, but definitely a lot of good lessons learned here.

 

As much as I hate to say it...maybe removing Mortarion is the way to go?  At 1750 Points, having to spend a ton for Mortarion AND a dedicated Bodyguard seems a bit steep.

 

Thanks.

 

Funny thing though, if I rewrote that post / report with the knowledge he only could have scored 4 points on Mort, I am fairly certain I won.

 

But yea, it's clear he's going to die in all my games, or darn near. The question really comes down to: Does he absorb enough crap to make it worth while? And even if he limps into a close combat situation, does he have enough gas left in the tank to clear out some baddies?

 

 

I'm sorry to hear that went so poorly for you Prot.

 

Sadly, I have to agree with Checkmate here. Because you WILL see DE at your tournament and it sounds like his list wasn't even as scary as it could have been. If the player had been all Kabal and forgone the Cult and Coven units, Mortarion would've been dead turn 1 for sure and a good Tau gunline which you will definitely see as well can also easily kill Mortarion in turn 1.

 

It really depends on what kind of experience you're looking to have. If you concede that Mortarion is probably going to die turn 1 every game and you're fine with that then by all means, bring him and have fun. But if you want to be able to compete with armies like Tau and DE, you may want to find another use for your near 500 points.

 

Thanks.... I Know I will see DE. I know of two tournament players with them, one for sure. But you know to be completely fair, I think DG is a horrible match up for DE. They have the tools for almost any DG list. We pay a premium for tough infantry/models that lose that aspect of their appeal. That being said, I've made myself a slightly different, but very unusual list for myself if I were to take Mort out. (Oh and I know tau will be there too... these are heavy hitters right now in ITC. I imagine I'll be packing up a lot of stuff early in these games. But in my test games I have only lost once so far... which gives me some hope.)

 

Yea DE are pretty rough. They're extremely cheaply costed and the poison hurts against our non vehicles.

 

I might suggest using your Daemon Prince as an index one, since the index deathguard have access to the csm prince, and that one has different options for Wargear. You lose DR but gain access to warptime to boost mortarion into assault and aura range

 

I see how potent that could be with Mort... but it does feel janky. ;) I'm not even sure if that would be legal in this case?

 

Anyway... I made changes to the list without messing up the core too much.

 

OUT: Mort, and Typhus (my favourite two models. lol )

 

IN: 2 Spewer Bloat Drones. Typhus is swapped for a Flying DP with Suppurating Plate, and Arch contaminator.

IN: Mort's extra points also get me Rhino, and Biologus Putrifier.

 

NOTE:

I know Biologus is a bit goofy. Hear me out though. 5 Marines, Plaguecaster, Biologus, and Foul Blightspawn all get into the Rhino. This does a few things:

1. I reduce my drops from 4+ down to 1. (I never get the +1 to go first in my test games. I've had two where I've lost tied rolls to go first as a result.. it gets annoying)

2. Speed. Without Plagubringer, movement has been PAINFUL. Well in this list I'm not bothering to babysit 12 Poxwalkers and 10 Cultists! This list is faster, PBC's, Bloatrones, 2 DP's with wings, Rhino all go full out in T1.

3. Effective range for Biologus grenades on 5 Plague Marines x D6 with the Strategem and VotLW. This MIGHT be very handy, and I have the CP's (13) to do it. Not to mention the Blightspawn gets his super killy toilet gun into range much faster.

 

What I'm really losing here is the wandering mob of chaff that owns the center table with Typhus and Plaguecaster with the Blightspawn in tow.

 

Also I'm losing a healing Mort threat that keeps my PBC's clear of lascanon type threat. The Drones/PBC's will take it on the melon starting T1.

 

2 DP's are no slouches though and they can't be farmed for victory points nearly as easily as Mort as they will be behind advancing drones, with PBC's. (getting buffed by and followed by Rhino.)

 

I have no idea what to do right now. It feels against my initial desires to take DG which was to throw Mort and Typhus around. I may have to just say to heck with it and accept they won't be ace at this event, or make severe modifications to protect Mort with his bodyguard (I do find they work), and get Typhus a real blob of Poxwalkers so he's more valid to the list.

[Checkmate77]

In the end it comes down to what Clincher37 said, are you there primarily to have fun?  Or are you there with an ultra-competitive list (not fluffy and likely not as fun to play) to win games primarily?

 

Brother, in the end it comes down to this simple choice. 

 

As you mentioned several times before, you love Morty and Typhus.....and right here you say that those are the main reasons you like playing Deathguard.  In your last post you look like you're trying to convince yourself that this new set up is what you really want to play.

 

Well then my humble recommendation is to hell the Meta and PLAY THEM  (Morty and Typhus).  Are you going to loose more games?  Possibly, but you'll be playing your Death Guard the way you LOVE playing them.  The wins you do pull off are going to be much more rewarding.

 

If it makes you feel better, I'm in a similar conundrum trying to get ready for the NOVA OPEN in August I've signed up for.  (will be my first major tournament).  I've come to the conclusion I'm going to play the DG with the models and style that I enjoy playing them.  Yes, I'll probably loose a lot of games with the set up I have because it is by far not the most competitive list out there.  But in the end, it's about just as much about having fun and enjoying your army as it is about winning IMO.

 

Sorry, started rambling in the end....... 

[Prot]

It's all good.

I made a third option that gets rid of Typhus, and keeps Mort.

 

Mort gets 3 Deathshroud which I spend a lot of time on:

 

I finished them about the same time I finished Mort: LINK

 

I really like how they turned out. The thing with Typhus is he's great I think if I'm using him to his fullest potential. By that I mean ideally I really do need the Blightbringer (for advance rolls) as well as a -minimum- of 20 Poxwalkers, ideally 2 squads. This way the cloud is rumbling forward, he gets to use his buffs.

 

The Pox nerf, combined with the fact I can't get all those units in really puts me in a hard spot. At least with the Shroud I give Mort another shot at survival and the Deathshroud MIGHT get in CC and they have done some serious damage for me. Optimal? Probably not. Losing Mort is never easy, but probably more importantly to get those 3 dudes in I lose the Foul Blightspawn. Now that guy really does some work for me in most games.  But he would be better suited for my other list in a Rhino.

 

I do like the sound of my other list, but I'm willing to put some 'min maxing' aside for Mort and the cause. :tu:

 

Next test game coming up (don't know the opponent). I will be testing the Shroud for the first time with FAQ in effect.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It is legal to do the index thing, as it follows their own flow chart. I will admit it deserves as many eye rolls as DE players using true born still.

 

Don't forget you can revive slain deathshroud or heal a wounded one with the one stratagem, 13 being easily enough

[DominikB]

Dethshroud, hmmm now that’s an idea for my slightly similar 2K list...

[Prot]

Wow, great call on the revival strat. Hilarious thing is I’ve never had the CPs to do it so I’ve largely ignored the idea... until now!

 

Going to try it anyway. I don’t know how much nastier DE can get....that felt pretty filthy. Lol

[Azekai]

 

In the end it comes down to what Clincher37 said, are you there primarily to have fun?  Or are you there with an ultra-competitive list (not fluffy and likely not as fun to play) to win games primarily?

I don't think it is an either/or dichotomy. I think there is a balance between the 'just for fun' and 'competitive cutthroat.'

 

It isn't 'fun' to get tabled end of turn 2 because you took a bunch of fluffy stuff that can't accomplish a thing, but that doesn't mean you have to ape an event winner's list. Getting rid of Typhus seems like a solid move to improve your list, Prot. 

 

It isn't like the Traveler and the Primarch get along anyway, hah!

 

Deathshoud are expensive, but considering they and Mortarion are effectively 'tanking' for your entire army, it seems like a solid investment.

 

 

In that last battle report the game sounded pretty close, even with your dice going cold. Dark Eldar poison is nasty, but it seemed like you played the objectives well... and that is what wins you tourney games.

[McElMcNinja]

I feel for you, it's tough to justify Morty in a 2k point list. I could drop my haulers to put him in (and a couple PM), but they have 24 wounds to his 18. They also count as 1 drop, which is nice. With a movement of 10" and no penalty for moving and shooting, they get around nicely. If my opponents ignore them, they will be sorry. If they don't, then I assume the rest of my army is grabbing objs., which is how you win these tournaments (from what I've seen).

While I want to run Marty, without being able to teleport in some Deathshroud turn 1 after his move, it's kind of tough too.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Out of anything, three Blight haulers are the first thing I'd drop for more effective units. 450~ for 6 single target shots? You can get that out of two hellbrutes, but with higher strength on most of them. The cover aura isn't enough to carry them since each bubble is self contained, on top of the fact that mortal wounds just ignore it anyways. And then their effectiveness spikes downwards once one dies.

[Prot]

I have fun with Blight Haulers but I have to agree with SM, they are a lot of points for what they bring. I mean adding 1 to DR or something truly valuable to the codex over all would have been significant. And the lack of output is a real factor for me. I really think multimelta’s should be D3 or similar.

 

Mort is the biggest point sink I can take while still having a real effect on the game *if* I get lucky with a turn of invuln.

 

In my Necron test game I had to grin and bear 1 turn and then he was in CC. Against the DE I had a great series of invulns in T1 but T2 was brutal. The Custodes couldn’t shoot him up enough and the mortal wounds were too much for the Custodes.

 

There’s three very different examples where Mort played 3 different roles. If the Deathshroud can close the gap between Morts best and worst match ups, I might keep him in for the long haul but I’m down to 2 weeks. The good news is I have no shortage of DG models and opponents!

[DominikB]

I have fun with Blight Haulers but I have to agree with SM, they are a lot of points for what they bring. I mean adding 1 to DR or something truly valuable to the codex over all would have been significant. And the lack of output is a real factor for me. I really think multimelta’s should be D3 or similar.

 

Mort is the biggest point sink I can take while still having a real effect on the game *if* I get lucky with a turn of invuln.

 

In my Necron test game I had to grin and bear 1 turn and then he was in CC. Against the DE I had a great series of invulns in T1 but T2 was brutal. The Custodes couldn’t shoot him up enough and the mortal wounds were too much for the Custodes.

 

There’s three very different examples where Mort played 3 different roles. If the Deathshroud can close the gap between Morts best and worst match ups, I might keep him in for the long haul but I’m down to 2 weeks. The good news is I have no shortage of DG models and opponents!

In the words of meatloaf...two out of three ain’t bad :)

 

I had a similar experience at LCO this year, I went 3-3 primarily due to lack of tournament experience. (Could’ve been 5-1 in hindsight :/) I did find some games he won me the game by miles...if he hit the front lines not much could be done about it in most cases but some games he just got shot down and limped into the front lines at least still did enough damage to be worth some points. 1/2 games he also just lived long enough for my drones to become a huge pain :/

 

Your idea of deathshroud is something I’ll look to copy myself tbh give people something else to kill before they get a swing at him

[McElMcNinja]

I like taking Morty, but without his Deathshroud he gets chewed up by the lists that you need him for. Without being able to teleport in after his first move means they either start right next to him and then are playing catchup or you bring someone that can cast warptime on them. If your going to do that might as well cast it on Morty.

 

As far as haulers go, I use them instead of PBC's. I like the mobility of them and they are hitting better then PBC's while moving. They don't degrade and I get them in 2d6 (choose the highest) damage range quickly. So if my opponents don't try to take them out I'm blowing up their heavies early. If they do focus on them my DP's and drones are in their face doing what they do. This leaves my troops to start grabbing objectives and PM's and Poxwalkers are tough to get off them, well can be with the right stratagems.

I'm not saying point for point haulers are better then PBC's, I'm saying for my this list and my play style that I prefer the hauler. This list is similar to the 1 I went 3-2 with at my first tournament. With the new rule of 3, the 2 I lost to are now invalid lists (and the 1 loss I had at another tournament). I have a bigger tournament this month and I'm going to give it another go. It may be an awful showing for me, but I hope not.

[SkimaskMohawk]

But PBC auto hit with their main weapons, the Plague spitter. The two don't really occupy the same role. Helbrute or predator is more of an equivalent

[Clincher37]

I have to agree that taking the index DP to cast Warptime on Morty is a good idea if you really want to take him. I wasn't at all saying that it's black and white when it comes to competitive or fun. I tend to play somewhere closer to the competitive side while still playing fun (You won't see me mixing TSons or anything in my army just because Ahriman is a beast).

 

My point was more to the effect that when it comes to playing a large point-sink type model like Mortarion just to be prepared for him to die on turn 1 because that will be the first model your opponent wants to kill because he is the biggest beatstick we have access to. 

 

I'm very interested to hear how your testing with the Deathshroud go. I've considered throwing them back in my lists and deploying them on the table in case I don't get turn 1 because if they can at least intercept a few Lascannon or Dark Lance shots, that's still a big deal. It's the worst when he gets knocked down a bracket before you even get to move him. I feel with that kind of thing though I'd want to have some sort of firebase (maybe Predators, Helbrutes or Entropy PBCs) for them to sit back and protect so if they do survive they're not trying to lumber across the table with their miserable movement stat. Just some food for thought there. 

 

But with all that said, I think your idea to drop Typhus and keep Morty is a good starting place. If my Morty and Deathshroud looked as good as yours do, I too would have a hard time not playing them. Typhus is just too slow and expensive. If he gets into CC he's amazing but I think I've only managed to get him in twice when I was using him (Pre FAQ). Are you cutting the Poxwalkers from that list too and going full on Plague Marines? 

[Prot]

I have to agree that taking the index DP to cast Warptime on Morty is a good idea if you really want to take him. I wasn't at all saying that it's black and white when it comes to competitive or fun. I tend to play somewhere closer to the competitive side while still playing fun (You won't see me mixing TSons or anything in my army just because Ahriman is a beast).

 

My point was more to the effect that when it comes to playing a large point-sink type model like Mortarion just to be prepared for him to die on turn 1 because that will be the first model your opponent wants to kill because he is the biggest beatstick we have access to. 

 

 

+ Okay so right now I'm using a Deathguard DP with Suppurating plate, Miasma of Pestilence (to cast on  Morty from a greater distance from my opponent to mitigate denials), and I had just enough points to plop a spewer on him, and he's the warlord with Arch contaminator (works with Mort, and his own sprayer).

 

+ If I change this to an 'index' DP, I lose all of that, but gain Warp Time correct? (I can't give him that relic? or the sprayer? but I probably can give him Arch Contaminator? But I lose DR.) And this is going to be 100% legit? I stopped using any of the vanilla Chaos powers once the actual DG codex came out so I just want to be 100% certain of how I would legally do this at an ITC event before considering it. (Last thing I need is to be told my less than optimal list is illegal. lol )

 

 

I'm very interested to hear how your testing with the Deathshroud go. I've considered throwing them back in my lists and deploying them on the table in case I don't get turn 1 because if they can at least intercept a few Lascannon or Dark Lance shots, that's still a big deal. It's the worst when he gets knocked down a bracket before you even get to move him. I feel with that kind of thing though I'd want to have some sort of firebase (maybe Predators, Helbrutes or Entropy PBCs) for them to sit back and protect so if they do survive they're not trying to lumber across the table with their miserable movement stat. Just some food for thought there. 

 

 

 

 

+ I haven't played my Deathshroud for a few months.But when I did I stopped using them in my own backfield, largely because of what you said. They're basically relegated to babysitting roles because no one really wants to approach them. The FAQ deepstrike certainly harms them, however I don't think I will use them in my own backfield to defend... Unless I am facing an army that has a minimum of 4-6 lascannon type weapons in it which can easily and most assuredly zot Mort in that opening turn.

 

+ If I underestimate my opponent and lose Mort in T1, or my opponent's T2, I will use the Deathshroud to protect the DP, as well as give him an extra attack. Plus the DP aura will help them hit, and wound.

 

 

But with all that said, I think your idea to drop Typhus and keep Morty is a good starting place. If my Morty and Deathshroud looked as good as yours do, I too would have a hard time not playing them. Typhus is just too slow and expensive. If he gets into CC he's amazing but I think I've only managed to get him in twice when I was using him (Pre FAQ). Are you cutting the Poxwalkers from that list too and going full on Plague Marines?

 

+ Thanks, and thank you for the comments. It's good food for thought and a lot of it is beneficial for me to explore.  Typhus is too slow, I don't want to repeat the same issue with the Deathshroud. I've found most of my ITC test games, most opponents want nothing to do with my back line, and they all outrange me, and prefer not to engage me. To this end, I feel like the plague spewers on the PBC's (along with their mild discount over Entropy Cannons) is my best chance.

 

+ Poxwalkers are staying at 10. I may use Cloud of Flies once per game on them, but I'm finding they are largely a bad unit now with the way I was using them. I really believe they need to be one to two squads at full size or forget the whole theme. That's my finding at least. GW hit them harder than I thought. At 10 men, they can sit on something and claim it. The Nurglings are my forward base now to allow manipulation of my opponent's deployment and make lanes for mort.

 

The above essentially describes a scenario that leaves Typhus pretty much useless so that's why I'm leaving him out of my list for the first time in... .well probably months!

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

My 'backup' list has no Mort. If this goes terribly, I may pull it out. Seriously I've seen how bad poison is on something like him and I'll see it almost guaranteed. (I really think GW should FAQ poison on Daemon Primarchs). I see one Deathwatch player there with SIA and I'm pretty much screwed.

 

My Backup list feels like it still has 'fun' elements with Biologus and a Rhino greatly increasing mobility, and increasing the effect of my Plaguemarines. I think dual DP's, dual Bloat Drones, dual PBC's at 1750 is starting to look better and better.

 

But first things first.. I know I'm in for a tough game tonight as my opponent is a filthy player (filthy is a good thing if you're a Death Guard player, right? ;) )

[SkimaskMohawk]

You can still give relics and warlord traits but you lose access to the Plague spewer. You do get the warp bolter as an option though

[Charlo]

Yeah, the whole Splinter weapons wounding something like Mortarion on a 4+ is kinda poop...!

 

He should have a rule like in Heresy where any flat "to wound" roll weapons only hurt him on a 6.

[Dallas Drake]

I've only had time to skim read this (as I'm mega busy with work and painting up my own tournament force desperately for June) but it's piqued my interest. Personally, and I'm probably wrong, but I don't see the point in Mort tanking all the dakka so PBCs etc can get through, Plaguespitters are mediocre damage output, you want PBC taking the heat so the rest of your army gets there. With that in mind isn't it better to run PBCs/Drones and then 2 Daemon Princes? Mort is such a points sink that you need him to do a lot of damage to justify his cost. Warptime is probably mandatory.

 

FWIW I'm currently fooling around with something like this...

 

2 DPs

2 or 3 Blighspawn (maybe a Blightbringer)

2/3 Spitter Drones

2 PBCs

1 Leviathan (I'd get 2 in somehow but tournament only allows 25% FW).

 

Then a battalion of 3x3 Nurglings with cheap HQs. Maybe a Poxbringer and Plaguecaster.

 

I've also tried the Rhino PM grenades thing, found it woefully underpowered when I managed to use it. Though not totally a waste as it's a good way to ferry Blightspawn there fast.

[Prot]

You can still give relics and warlord traits but you lose access to the Plague spewer. You do get the warp bolter as an option though

 

I was running this past a guy who plays Blood Angels and he thinks the Plague Spewer should be an option.. .he's basing this on a reverse idea though where he uses a Razorback with a loadout that does not exist in his BA codex, so he gets (I think it's Las/Plas) from the Index Razorback entry.

 

I tried explaining to him that the new wargear option is limited to the Codex entry.

 

However I admit I'm confused. I followed the flow chart of 'Index/Codes' for model selection. And now I wonder why I would not be able to take the Spewer because if I'm using the Index version of the DP, am I not still leveraging options found only in the codex? (Suppurating plate for example?) or is it specific to wargear and that's why I can't take -any- Wargear from the Codex if I use an Index model?

 

- edit- actually that makes sense or else there would be no reason to take the Index model if the same model in the codex could mix/match wargear from either source.

 

P.S.

I'm dumping the flamer Codex DP, and trying it old school style... back to Warp time I guess. It's probably my only shot at making this work.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'd have to look at the flow chart again tbh, but I'm pretty sure the difference is that the index version is a Daemon Prince of Chaos or something along those lines, and our codex version is a Daemon Prince of nurgle. They're two different units. Think razorbacks vs razorback infernus.

 

Relics and the like aren't taken into consideration, only what's on the datasheet.

[Blackheart1223]

A super cheap CSM patrol detachment will give you access to the Chaos Familiar stratagem, which you can then use to give Morty Warptime as he has all of the necessary keywords.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think they're limited to 2 detachments