Prot's ITC Challenge: P5: New ITC Test Game: Astra- NO MORT

[Prot]

I'm using 3.... Nurgle Battalion, Death Guard Battalion and MOrtarion Super Heavy Detachment.

 

I'm using the Chaos Index DP for this game.

[McElMcNinja]

OK Prot, I'm planning on getting a couple games in today and your post has convinced me to play Morty. I was able to squeeze in some Deathshroud and am taking a Sorcerer w/jump pack and a DP from the index.

My plan is to place the Deathshroud last and if it looks like I will get the +1 advantage for going first I am going to put them in reserves. Then use warptime to hopefully move Morty into combat turn 1. Then turn 2 land the Deathshroud and warptime them into combat. Or start them on the board for round 1 protection and then either have them go camp an obj. or use warptime turn 2 to get them across the board. I will also have heals from 1 DP to also help keep Morty up.

 

Admittedly I haven't used stuff from the index because I had been convinced by others that by using the index meant losing Death Guard bonuses and such. But as long as I give them Mark of Nurgle and Death Guard legion trait they are treated no different then if they were from the codex.

[DominikB]

I’d expect stuff which was DG in the index still can’t be taken as such...like DG jump/bike sorcerers :/

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yes it can...

[Prot]

So had my latest test game...

The opponent was not filthy DE this time, it was filthy IG!

He was playing Cadian IG, with reroll madness, actually his list really reminded me of old school IG parking lot.

From memory:

Primaris Psyker

Basilisk

Manticore

2 flame tanks

1 banewolf? (the 2 up poison tank... yay more poison!)

Pask in a Russ

Russ with Las

a couple of squads wit Lascannons

a couple of Conscripts

a few characters to hold it all together

His army was a Brigade but -1 CP because he wanted to test a Libby with backpack with Null Zone.

+++ The Game +++

It was the first ITC test came in this series that I got the +1 with my DG. I still lost the dice roll.

Our deployment was the Vanguard Strike ( diagonal ) with the 24" separation.

Astra goes first.... here's their deployment:

+ The very familiar IG parking lot formation: All vehicles must go, free warranty with every purchase, today only. +

The DG deployment:

+ Mortarion and passive deployments are like.... Death Guard and soap... just not happenin' +

- Even before the roll off to go first I knew that IF he got turn one I would take a horrendous amount of firepower. So as a result I decided to put out the Deathshroud.

- Sure enough Astra go first and Mortarion gets lit up like a Christmas tree... that smells like garbage.

- I think Mort got down to 9 wounds. As I recall it in my turn he still was top bracket. I used a CP to save a lascannon shot, he took a horrendous amount of shooting. My Cultists took some shots, and I basically had to grin and bear it without a turn of Strats or Psychic phase.

- I should say something very important at this point: Without the Deathshroud Mortarion is seriously dead. The funny thing is if you think about the mechanism to jump in front of hits for characters, the Deathshroud were wounded by this heavy weapons exactly the same as Mort would have been. That doesn't feel right, but it shows how T5 and T7 really don't make much of a difference to anything but small arms fire.

- The Deathshroud are hit hard, and are down to the champion as Mort is smoldering down to 9 wounds.

- Astra score one point for holding an objective, but aside from Nurgling deaths, and the odd wound on a PBC, I don't give up a kill yet.

+++ Now it's time for the DG turn or the turn I fondly refer to as: The turn where everything falls apart! +++

- In approximate order of operation: (And this is important as in my mind it dictates most of the game)

1. I move Mort up as far as I can. Thus the DP moves as far as he can. THIS is huge and I debated this internally because by doing so I opened my Psychic phase up to 1 possible denial.....

2. The right side of my force all advance, including Plague Marines which have Cloud of Flies.

3. Mort goes to cast "Miasma" on himself. Fails

3B Daemon Prince goes to cast "Warp Time" on Mort. Fails. I CP re roll and Pass. The Astra Primaris Psyker is within 24" and denies Warp Time. (this is why movement was debated. I COULD have kept Mort/DP out of denial but Warp time is super short range, and it felt pointless to do so.)

3C: Poxbringer casts Fleshy Abundance. Barely gets it, and restores (drum roll please...) 1 Wound on Mortarion.

3D: Mort with nothing better to do casts Smite. Fails

3E Plaguecaster casts Putrescent Vitality on Poxwalkers: Passes. Then Smite against a flame tank: Fails and Perils for 3 mortal wounds.

So there I knew the game was over. So much went wrong, most of my advance moves on PBC's were 1's and 2's. Poxwalkers advanced 1 that turn.

This all combined to reduce my board coverage to a degree I could not pressure with CC -anywhere- on the board, and my softer units were in danger.

With Mort not getting a Warp Time move, and no -1 to hit, and only one restored wound really meant he was done. (The last Deathshroud was way too far behind moving his 4" plus 2" run (reduced to 1").)

- I get one point for holding objectives, we tie at end of battleround for kills (zero) and hold more ( 2 vs 2). So we're tied at one point.

+ Mort is hanging in the wind. No psychic support, no extra moves, he's essentially dead.+

- The inevitable happens... between all the tanks firing, and all the re rolls.... Mort is a smoking crater.

- I don't lose any other full unit. The Astra don't want to shoot the Nurglings, and they just kind of linger like farts.

- My PBC's are the next big targets and one takes a LOT of wounds. He'd down to 2-3 wounds.

+ Mid table is bad... With multi flame tanks I can't get anywhere near him and I have no appropriate weapons for all the High T Vehicles.

+ My DP moves up, trying for a multi assault. I carefully move up a PBC with the DP to make sure he can't be easily shot.....

+ My Psychic phase: A Poxbringer brings 1 wound back to a PBC.

+ The DP Smites a vehicle.

+ I use 2 CP and bring a single Deathshroud Termie back from the dead... they end up charging his Librarian and dice him up something fierce (The DP has Arch contaminator and re-roll 1 aura).

+ I put a lot of shots into the flame tank, take it down to 3 wounds. My opponent lets me back up and I put "Dead Walking" on Poxwalkers..... I do this because I put Blades of Putrifaction on my Cultists and charge it into a flame tank (I have no choice...I NEED to steal this game. so I go for multi assault on top of objectives.) 7 CULTISTS die in overwatch! lol So this refills my Poxwalkers from 6-12 models.

+ My Plaguemarines have their best turn of 40K. They put 5 Damage (from blightlaunchers) into a flame tank. (the S6 is really rough to wound with).

+ My Cultists with some help get 3 wounds on the flame tank in CC, but he saves all.

+ My DP takes out 10 conscripts which are blocking his stuff from taking any tank damage.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I take a fair lead here with kill more, hold more in my turn I get both points, and take reaper point.

+ These Ogryns I find to be crazy good for their points.... but the Deathshroud is serious.+

- I take a ton of shots as usual... the Plaguemarines as usual are being ignored because they're harder infantry and they really don't pose a threat.

- I lose all but 2 cultists, a PBC is dead, it explodes and kills my Plaguecaster with mortal wounds.

- I lose a few Nurgling bases.

- The DP and last Deathshroud are charged by Ogryn. The Deathshroud has dual gauntlets and with Arch contaminator near by he causes 5 wounds on the Ogryns! He fails 2 saves charging in, his attacks are ALL intercepted by the Deathshroud champion most assuredly saving the Warlord DP's life.

- The DP swings back, and kills all but one Ogryn with one wound remaining. SO I'm stuck in, but still hvae 6 wounds left.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm down to nothing but still winning in points. I make desperate moves to get his last flame tank with my Plaguemarines but they won't make the charge, and they shoot and do nothing as usual in the shooting phase.

I'm out of CP's. My smite is blocked once, but the Poxbringer kills the last Ogryn with Smite, freeing my DP with Warp time to move where he needs.. he hops over the terrain and plans to asault ONE tank, and in doing so will 'activate' into his Pask Tank.

CC goes terrible against the tank, my lone PBC is almost dead and flames a squad of Conscripts (his last screening squad in front of his command tanks).

This makes the DP's role critical here. He hits a lot, but I have trouble wounding and his -2 AP isn't good enough to get rid of the tank.

At this point we call it. I've got the odd nurgling scrambling to hide. I did get all 4 objectives once for a bonus point, but it was clear I was nearly tabled after I lost my second PBC I had no offense and my DP failed to kill a tank and would have faced about 3 lascannons, 50 or so flashlights, a Basi, and Manticore plus other stuff. He was surely going to die in that last turn.

+++++++++++++++++++

Conclusion:

- Mortarion is nearly impossible to keep in the list at this point. 470 points of dead weight that can't do any damage. (With all due respect GW is out to lunch on his cost in the current meta.... plus it's worth mentioning the poison tank is wounding him on 2+ at -2 AP I believe..)

- Deathshroud were far better than I thought they'd be. The enabled the DP to be a wrecking ball. But at 180 that's steep. I think taking Mort without these guys is not a good idea. However we're now up to 650 points plus 2-3 psychic powers to support ONE model in a 1750 game.

- DP underperformed but probably was my best unit even with that under consideration.

- Opening Psychic phase ended the game.

I proposed to my opponent that if I go first, or get Warp Time off, perhaps I win. He wasn't convinced. He thinks Mort is useless and at best would have cleaned up 10 Conscripts and then be shot to death. I reminded him of the Mortal wound aura stuff, and he still wan't convinced it would do more than put a few wounds on some tanks and keep Mort largely insignificant.

Mort DOES attract a lot of attention and that is the Positive most people give me about using him in games. However I see him as 470 points that is always dead without doing much.

He still needs to be there... in a way because I can't do any real damage. When I played Custodes he was the only thing that could damage them. Poxwalkers and -1 flamers really don't do a heck of a lot.

I'm not going to lie, I feel pretty deflated. I know DG is not a powerhouse, but I pulled Typhus, probably pulling Mort. My other list that I've been working on in the background is all about drones and PBC's with 1-2 DP's. Plaguemarines are not working here. The other list has them in a Rhino with possibly 2 Foul Blightspawns and a Biolgus for a 6 man mega grenade unit and a flail.

The Poxwalkers definitely are FAR harder hit by the FAQ than I originally thought. I down played the nerf but I am getting nothing more than holding an objective for a turn or two out of them now. (the only other way I can see them having impact is 2-3 x 20 man squads and Typhus)

So my list does almost no damage if Mort doesn't make it. I have a lot invested in bodies that more or less stumble over things and try not to die. Nurglings, Cultists, Poxwalkers and Plaguemarines all fit this category.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have to run to the GW store today to pick up my pre order, but I also have to decide whether to bother with this project or not because I have 2 weeks to change the list, finish Nurglings, paint a possible second DP, Rhino, etc. I'd have to pick up Biologus today, with a DP. Not sure if it's really worth it.

The more potent my lists appear, the less appealing they are to me.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So off the top of my head.

 

You couldn't have raised another shroud with the champion wounded. I'm a bit curious how there were any left in the first place :p.

 

You seem to have terrible luck in the psychic phase; -1 really hurts IG, warptime obviously lets charge. The trick against his flame tanks and such is to charge the conscripts that are standing next to it and then pile in to tie the tank up (preventing the overwatch). He loses a turn of shooting, you get to mortal wound nuke his army with mortarion. Of course, if warptime had happened. It would have had a large impact on the game. Even doing that with the nurglings would have really helped.

 

Could have used veterans of the long war on the cultists so they wounded the flame tank on 4s.

 

Did you remember Death to the False Emperor for any melee you did get in to?

 

Who's your warlord and whats its trait?

[Prot]

So off the top of my head.

 

You couldn't have raised another shroud with the champion wounded. I'm a bit curious how there were any left in the first place .

 

You seem to have terrible luck in the psychic phase; -1 really hurts IG, warptime obviously lets charge. The trick against his flame tanks and such is to charge the conscripts that are standing next to it and then pile in to tie the tank up (preventing the overwatch). He loses a turn of shooting, you get to mortal wound nuke his army with mortarion. Of course, if warptime had happened. It would have had a large impact on the game. Even doing that with the nurglings would have really helped.

 

Could have used veterans of the long war on the cultists so they wounded the flame tank on 4s.

 

Did you remember Death to the False Emperor for any melee you did get in to?

 

Who's your warlord and whats its trait?-

 

In no particular order (and I don't blame you for not reading, I realize I wrote this up very quickly):

 

1. A Deathshroud was never brought back while one was wounded. To be specific: My turn 1, one Deathsrhoud was brought back to life. In my turn 2, I healed one with the same strat. (probably not worth it.)

 

2. Psychic phase: Agreed. As mentioned I always seem to have one horrific turn of casting, often quite early in my games. This was the debate my and my opponent had. I told him in T1 I was going to lose because the basic mechanisms that prop up this list all failed me. He countered by saying Mort was never going to be a factor.

 

Even doing that with the nurglings would have really helped

 

 

Do you mean 'even casting Warp time on nurglings' would have really helped? I am not too certain on that one. I found the nurglings were very good this game.. people just hate shooting them, but each of his conscript squads were getting 1st rand 2nd rank, and each had a flamer. It was a rough game for them. I did end up hiding them in the  end to deny points. But they are one of the units in the army that seem to always have some form of bizarre impact.

 

2.B The plan is always to assault the weak, and tie up the strong.... He spaced very well, nothing runs if he doesn't want it to, he pulls from the back and had tanks over 3" away. End game I had ONE opportunity to do this trick I charged (stopped within 1") this is a difficult trick but you can pull it off if you activate properly....

 

I activated into the main target, but engaged the Pask tank as a side effect, disallowing overwatch. He used a strat but it failed to yield results. My failing was I wanted to blow up my main target. At that point we did not play the last turn, but he demonstrated pulling back those two target tanks, and he would have had: One basilisk, one Manticore, 1 Flame tank, 3 Lascannons, and about 40-60 flash light shots next turn at my DP.

 

The tie up trick works, but if you stumble into his front lines with out clearing chaff first, with a solo model... or even two... it's just going to peter out an die.

 

3. I did use VotLW on the cultists to wound the tank on 4+ instead of 5+. (Sorry I skipped that part and just mentioned getting Blades off on them)

 

4. I actually did remember Death to filthy Astra. But I kept track, the Libby took 2 of those bonus hits, but he was so overwhelmed with 2 Deathshroud on him that they were wasted. Other than that only the DP had two rounds of CC where he hit on a single 6. In total I had rolled 4 sixes in the game. (I hardly made CC with anything though.)

 

5. DP was warlord. Arch contaminator is always his trait (this is why my original list gave him a spewer.) In my other list he is advancing with two PBC's, and 2 Blightdrones, and a Rhino with 2 Foul Blightspawns (My old list used a blight spawn as  the WL with Contaminator for that reason, plus Biolgus Grenades + blight grenades would have benefited from that.)

 

Thanks for checking it out. It was a rough one. I would have felt better if I could just write it off as my typical bad psychic phase, but my opponent did convince me that Mort probably would not have done much by reaching his front lines. As I said in the batrep, I did debate that Mort's aura is indeed strong in each and every fight phase, but he demonstrated how he would have handled this in game, and I'm forced to possibly agree with him (to be fair we'll never know.)

[DominikB]

Yes it can...

I assume the DG permitted list still applies...why wouldn’t it?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Oh yea, for some reason I read the champion was down to 1 wound as well, my bad.

 

What I meant was just move and assault the conscripts and pile into the tank with nurglings, not cast warptime. Looking at your first two pictures, it looks like the conscripts were literally next to the tanks, which is why I mentioned it. And even with the overwatch, you still have two 5+ saves to protect you, which is about a 54% chance to pass.

 

Just some thoughts and observation

[Prot]

Oh yea, for some reason I read the champion was down to 1 wound as well, my bad.

 

What I meant was just move and assault the conscripts and pile into the tank with nurglings, not cast warptime. Looking at your first two pictures, it looks like the conscripts were literally next to the tanks, which is why I mentioned it. And even with the overwatch, you still have two 5+ saves to protect you, which is about a 54% chance to pass.

 

Just some thoughts and observation

 

 

Oh I see what you meant now. Well that was the master plan. I got the first tank in the right hand side of the picture. That one had to go because of its 2+ poison at -2 AP (I think... Banewolf?) Brutal.

 

The problem was I never killed enough to do it. He always kept the remaining Conscripts base locked with me an auto passed moral. The only time I got him cleared up enough to do this, he moved the Ogryns into base to fill the gap. 

 

I needed to have more live into close combat. 

 

I believe the strongest way of doing this is committing 2 DP's to one side, or something similar. This kind of sucks... it means Mort goes.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I've had some time to think about this game and I do realize that the Bodyguard are pretty much mandatory to use Mort (or at least I feel so.)

 

Plan B List is basically an Index DP, 6 PM's in a Rhino (to get my drops lowered) with Biologus, and Foul Blightspawn (removing Mort and his body guard allow the Foul Blightspawn back in.... and these guys I think really need a Rhino.)

 

2 PBC's, 2 Bloat Drones. (in part the Bloat Drones, Biologius, the Blightspawn AND the Rhino replace Mort and body guard).

 

OR I stick out Mort and Body guard. 

 

One thing I want to just throw out there as stupid as this sounds it sure would be nice if I can have ONE opening game Psychic phase where I don't fill my boots with failure. (IE: I literally think it's been 3 full games since I got Miasma off. That's insane) 

 

I was having a debate with another friend and he's telling me I gotta get Warp Time off and throw something chunky into the opponent's lines...... Sure, why not? Oh wait a second Mort is supposed to be that 'something'. :D

 

The problem is you're relying so hard on Warp Time and it's impossible to hide from 'denial' stuff, because of the extremely limited range. 

 

So Mort list demands I support him better, and rely more on the Psychic Phase. Plan B list is more flexible, less 'punchy' but has more flamage. (There's still a serious problem in my lists for vehicles but that -was- Mort's job.) 

[SkimaskMohawk]

You could consider a 1ksons detachment since they get +6" on their spells; use summoning for daemons. You do lose out on nurgling push back though

[Prot]

That’s a good thought. I would consider it but I sold all my Thousand Sons to go full Death Guard.... I guess you should never go full Death Guard. ;)

 

I did try to figure out a more complete list while using Mortarion and to get rid of the Nurgle detachment gets me a few blightdrones. Which would get me faster moving damage which is severely lacking here.

 

I honestly don’t know if that’s a good idea. I’ve grown a bizarre fondness of the Nurglings and the Poxbringers aren’t bad. However those heals really aren’t that great all things considered.

 

Facing a bit of burnout here as the clock is running down. I have another tougher game lined up for Tuesday. We’ll see.

[Clincher37]

That really sucks, I'm sorry to hear that Prot. You could be the most unlucky individual I've ever seen when it comes to your psychic phase. Miasma at least would've been a huge help against guard since you'd be reducing their shots hitting by nearly half. 

 

It sounds like you're on the right track so I wouldn't give up on Morty just yet. 

 

If I can suggest maybe trying to free points up elsewhere to replace the PBCs with Bloat Drones? Maybe you can give Mortarion one more chance if you get that faster strike from the Bloat Drones + Daemon Prince. I definitely like the idea of letting the Death Shroud stand next to him starting on the table to save him from some turn 1 shooting.

 

If nothing else though, I think your alternate list with the Blightspawn in the Rhino sounds solid. But if we take a step back, maybe we're looking at this wrong? Death Guard are just not a super killy codex. It's the sad truth. We're resilient (disgustingly so) and we're hard to remove. Every game I've played, I've typically not taken as many losses as my opponent but won just because they can't get me off of objectives. You're right, nobody wants to shoot Nurglings because they're really tough to remove but they're always the MVP of my army because they just don't die and continue scoring me points. 

 

It is the sad truth of the Death Guard it seems. Personally, I'd go with option A and bring Mortarion with Bloat Drones and just have fun because what fun is trying to hide your resilient models on objectives and try to win while not really killing much of the opponent's models, am I right?

[SkimaskMohawk]

But bloat drones are strictly worse in terms of output and durability for points. They win out with fly and the 1 more inch of movement. If prot is starting is PBCs in front of his dudes there should be very little difference of getting in range.

 

There is a lot of damage output available, but it's in more tailored lists. A PBC and drone list with poxbringers, epididemius, gnarlmaws and Daemon princes do a lot of damage through weights of autohit high strength and rerolls

[Prot]

It sounds like you're on the right track so I wouldn't give up on Morty just yet. 

 

If I can suggest maybe trying to free points up elsewhere to replace the PBCs with Bloat Drones? Maybe you can give Mortarion one more chance if you get that faster strike from the Bloat Drones + Daemon Prince. I definitely like the idea of letting the Death Shroud stand next to him starting on the table to save him from some turn 1 shooting.

 

 

Thank you, there's some good insight in that post. I can tell you've been playing these guys a while too.... the thing I've come full circle on is your comment above: Morty (I think) is not 100% the strongest avenue to go down, but I don't want to give up just yet even though he got pretty wrecked. I know you mentioned my rotten luck, but it's good to know these past games are both worst case scenarios. I think we learn a lot more from those games.

 

 

 

 

It is the sad truth of the Death Guard it seems. Personally, I'd go with option A and bring Mortarion with Bloat Drones and just have fun because what fun is trying to hide your resilient models on objectives and try to win while not really killing much of the opponent's models, am I right?

 

 

What you say here is really something to consider against the super-duper shooty games I've just had against ITC type opponents.... I am looking (perhaps too much) for damage dealers where they don't exist.

 

I think your comment is very timely... I have reworked the list with about 3 massive options without Mort. This lead me to realize as I'm making this list that Codex Death Guard damage comes primarily from Flamers!  There is nothing remotely lascannon like or missile launcher like in my list. The units that bring those options to the table are too slow, or expensive for my taste.

 

This made me question my tactics.... Should I have just hit his entire front line with everything... I mean everything.

 

Mort dies before I get my second turn, this left the DP alone to take on a LOT of stuff. Poxwalkers/cultsists don't do a heck of a lot against this stuff..

 

I think IF I could have thrown some Bloat drones in there to not only occupy but potentially take vehicles down a level or two, while holding others up with Nurglings, I could have fared better. But I will say he had a LOT on the table still. So I think the only way I could have won it was to own the real estate on the table, and try not to get tabled.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I need to go 1-1 I think in this list with PBC's and Bloat Drones because the PBC's are just giving me flame damage overall. Yes they are SUPER resilient, tanky, etc, but once Mort goes, my CC abilities are limited to chaff (nurtlings haven't killed anything in any of my games yet) and Plagumarines don't do any damage in CC.... so I'm thinking A drone or two might be necessary once Mort is dead; the DP Warptime slingshots the drones into CC to take the over watch damage, etc.

 

The reality is if I can't get damage out of the list once Mort dies, I might as well not bother because I found in my last 2-3 games I can't damage high value target type lists with two PBC's on their own.

[Clincher37]

 

I think your comment is very timely... I have reworked the list with about 3 massive options without Mort. This lead me to realize as I'm making this list that Codex Death Guard damage comes primarily from Flamers!  There is nothing remotely lascannon like or missile launcher like in my list. The units that bring those options to the table are too slow, or expensive for my taste.

 

 

 

Flamers certainly are the superstars of Codex: Death Guard. 

 

I'm working on piecing together my final list for an upcoming RTT at the end of the month and I'm just jamming as many flamers I can in there and coupling it with Epidemius and two Poxbringers to spread the +1 Strength Aura and Fleshy Abundance where needed. When I was initially putting it together I kept telling a friend of mine about how I was lacking the ranged AT firepower I wanted because I just don't like Predators and Helbrutes in my Death Guard army but he made a good point that I have a lot of stuff that is very hard to kill and if I can use Nurglings or something to charge the opposing AT firepower, it's not going to be easy to kill T8 PBCs and nobody is going to want to charge me. 

 

 

 

I need to go 1-1 I think in this list with PBC's and Bloat Drones because the PBC's are just giving me flame damage overall. Yes they are SUPER resilient, tanky, etc, but once Mort goes, my CC abilities are limited to chaff (nurtlings haven't killed anything in any of my games yet) and Plagumarines don't do any damage in CC.... so I'm thinking A drone or two might be necessary once Mort is dead; the DP Warptime slingshots the drones into CC to take the over watch damage, etc.

 

The reality is if I can't get damage out of the list once Mort dies, I might as well not bother because I found in my last 2-3 games I can't damage high value target type lists with two PBC's on their own.

 

 

Nurglings aren't there to kill anything, the only time my Nurglings have really killed anything else was a unit of Scouts. They're there to provide speedbumps, steal objectives, and charge the big nasties to make them stop shooting. 

 

You're certainly right, the drones can charge something and that's how I plan to use mine where necessary.

 

And the final sentence there is the biggest lesson of all. If your whole strategy and list falls apart when you lose one model, it's time to look at what you can do instead. There's been a pretty good series posted recently The Brown Magic blog called "How to Win ITC" and while I'm not that kind of bleeding edge competitive, I think there are good lessons in there for anybody who wants to have a good shot at winning even small local tournaments. Among those is not relying on what should happen statistically and playing to lose when playtesting your list. Let everything go wrong in your playtesting and see how you and your list can adapt to that. Let yourself get seized on, fail all your psychic powers, let absolutely everything go wrong so you're ready for an actual game where things can go right. It's almost fortunate that you've been so unlucky because at least you can go in with the right expectation and know what could happen. 

 

This whole course has been really interesting to see and I'm enjoying watching your list, strategy, and mindset evolve as you prepare for this tournament but the most important thing that I try to always keep in mind is that at the end of the day you're playing 40k because you love it and it's fun so make sure you keep that in mind as you prepare and play. Make sure you know what you want to get out of it and don't fall to the side of making it "unfun" for yourself because something may or may not work.

[Prot]

Hehe... yea I really don't need to manufacture 'worst case scenarios'... lol I've got the brown luck going.

 

Don't worry about the 'fun' part. I have never set out to make my list as cut throat as possible, but it's really important to have some games where good things can happen, and if I handicap myself too much around a few characters, it becomes not fun for entirely different reasons.

 

I'm looking for balance. I know I won't win the event... not even close. The game is mostly still about hordes of junk, I just refuse to go down that road just to win. (Did you see what just won the GT final?)

 

I think I'm testing a Non-Mort list. The thing I'm realizing is he wouldn't be amazing at 2K (which is where I traditionally have used him) but at 1750 I think he really needs the bodyguard. I still can't believe the amount of crap they intercept, and in those games with the Deathshroud I've come to realize 90% of the time they are as difficult to wound as Mort, but they have a 2+. (against poison this is huge)

[McElMcNinja]

I had a 3 page reply for all this, but I'm going to (try and) sum it up a little bit shorter. I think you should bring more of the same units and less unit types. Example, 1 PBC is an easy target and when it's gone you've lost its function, bring 3 and you've still got 2 left. Which means you opponents have to spread their shots out. If you only bring 1 squad of PMs and it's gone early, you may think they don't do anything for you. But your opponent thought they needed to be dealt with, bring 2 or 3 squads and that same opponent would have to split his fire to try and get all of them.

While you can only bring 1 Mortarion and he will be everyones target. You need something to take that will make your opponents think about. I bring 2 DPs and 2 squads of PMs, 2 drones...

[McElMcNinja]

I also wanted to say, in my next tournament there are rules for tabling your opponent. I have been thinking about just trying for that, but what would I change to accomplish that? I don't think Death Guard has that as an option, so I have been trying to tailor my list to secure objs while having big targets in their face turn 1 and 2. I don't plan on Morty living long, but while he's up I'm going for objs with my troops and let everything else support Morty and his endeavors.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea, I agree with target priority. It's why my list Ive tried before CA and am testing out again now isn't even trying with an index Daemon Prince. It's just going full mortarion and magnus as a Spoiler list. Large amount of psychic powers and magnus' bonus to cast and range will make it far harder to deny. I'll see how that does against mixed tzeentch, eldar of some combination and Nids

[Prot]

 I think you should bring more of the same units and less unit types. Example, 1 PBC is an easy target and when it's gone you've lost its function, bring 3 and you've still got 2 left. Which means you opponents have to spread their shots out.

. I bring 2 DPs and 2 squads of PMs, 2 drones...

 

I agree with the premise, but not as granular. I subscribe to the idea of bringing similar units. It's worked since I started playing 40K a loong time ago: One PBC is fine, if you have 2 Drones, etc. These 3 units create a tough combination of similar statlines and have very similar roles.

 

2 DP's, 2 squads of PMs, 2 Drones... You have to remember this is a 1750 tournament. Serious chunks of points come from those elements. If I go that deep into expensive squads, I chop the head off my HQ's. There's some tough list making decisions to be made there. Something has to suffer: HQs?Mort? Dp?  Do I kill numbers? Nurgle Battalion? Troops? Do I kill Heavies?

 

I know you're trying Mort, and you're trying Shroud, and that's great, but even at 2K it does make a difference.

 

Balance is key and I have to pick my poison.

 

Speaking of which I think taking Mort makes the Bodyguard imperative.

 

 

 

I also wanted to say, in my next tournament there are rules for tabling your opponent. I have been thinking about just trying for that, but what would I change to accomplish that? I don't think Death Guard has that as an option, so I have been trying to tailor my list to secure objs while having big targets in their face turn 1 and 2. I don't plan on Morty living long, but while he's up I'm going for objs with my troops and let everything else support Morty and his endeavors.

 

I agree. The Death Guard (on their own) have no chance of tabling competent opponents/competent lists in a tournament environment. But mort does force your hand. I think if you take Mort and your list is mostly aimed at passively sitting on objectives, it's going to be an uphill battle. Mortarion and -all- of his rules promote aggressive, offensive play. He's the anti Guilliman in a lot of ways.

 

Yea, I agree with target priority. It's why my list Ive tried before CA and am testing out again now isn't even trying with an index Daemon Prince. It's just going full mortarion and magnus as a Spoiler list. Large amount of psychic powers and magnus' bonus to cast and range will make it far harder to deny. I'll see how that does against mixed tzeentch, eldar of some combination and Nids

 

Mort + Magnus is a different story. That type of foundation forces difficult decisions on your opponent immediately.  I will say one thing that can utterly ruin your day though: Poison. Facing ITC level Dark Eldar twice past week, and the new Deathwatch codex has really caused me to pump the brakes on these monsters that can be targeted T1. (On a personal note I think Poison needs an adjustment to those types of units to some degree at least.)

 

Personally, I think the DP is the best unit in the dex. Dollar for dollar, pound for pound.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

What I'm finding in the ITC environment @ 1750

 

Mortarion:

Pro's: Huge target priority, massive damage potential, Psyker. 'Reliable' access to Mortal wounds. Fast unit in a relatively slow army.

Con's: Huge point cost. Targetable from T1. Needs support (Psykers, bodyguard, etc). 

 

 

So to keep him and acknowledge those things, I have to be willing to suffer the consequences:

 

My ability to deal damage in the event of his (likely) early demise is low. Two PBC's, and a DP. The rest is chaff. And psyker related damage.

 

What I have been able to do thanks to the Daemon Battalion is keep my numbers up: Three squads of Nurglings, 5 Plague marines, 10 Poxwalkers, 10 Cultists... all of these still help provide a nice footprint, all be it very weak.

 

If I removed the Daemons I lose: 5 CP's, some decent board control, healing Mort. But I gain: 2 Foetid Bloat drones. Is it worth the damage? The CC presence? The speed? For that trade off of points and presence?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ohhhhh I'm really aware of DE. My one buddy basically has an inexhaustible horde of 2nd ed eldar models of every type, so I get to go up against all sorts of things. Talos spam, reaper spam, wracks, kabalites, count as corsairs, shining spears, etc... the only time I've reliably beaten his list was with pre CA Cerberus and scorpii. It also helps that he consistently gets key rules wrong and I don't check him enough, but you know.

 

Are you planning on running a big Daemon Prince, drone, PBC parking lot?

[Checkmate77]

Been off for a while and trying to catch up.

 

First off, sorry for your loss against the DE.  Sounds like you gave it a good run desptie the dice being against you.

 

I had a crazy thought (everyone feel free to bash it down, just thinking out loud here  ).  In your effort to try to shift some of the priority off of Morty, Have you thought of taking a Helldrake?  With a 30" range, that is an immediate threat to any gunline army.  It can lock up tanks in close combat, forcing them to move and thus not fire in following turns.  Plus, if you get it into their defense lines and they do kill it you can use a CP to make it blow up causing additional Mortal wound to everything around. 

 

All the while your opponent is dealing with this threat, Morty is free (or less hindered at least) to move up the board.

 

Again just an idea. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

He needs a csm detachment for that, and the strat doesn't work on it

[Checkmate77]

Not neccisarily, it costs you a CP, but you can take on as an Auxilliary Support Detachment.

 

If I read correctly Prot's running a DG detachment and Demon Detachment so far.  He would still be within the 3 Detachment rule.

 

As to the Strat, If the Helldrake has the Nurgle and Death Guard Faction Key words, why wouldn't it work?