DW Veterans

[Delta.Skies]

 

 

 

 

I'm planning to do that as well. Can't decide though if I should pay for a storm shield on the hammer vanguard vet or stick with a pistol

I say bolt pistol and chainsword. Since the chainsword gives you an extra attack and since it's not allocated to just the chainsword you can put it on your sia bolt pistol. Wound on 2s or go for the -ap. Least from my interpretation and what I've seen in tactics.

I don't think that's right. The chainsword rule says "with this weapon" for the extra attack.

Lemondish is right, but the pistol is not a melee weapon and is not used in the assault phase. You shoot the pistol in the shooting phase even if you're in combat, so it wouldn't have worked anyways even if that was the case.

 

Something a lot of people (myself included) tend to forget and they miss their chance to shoot their pistols in combat.

*makes mind blown noise* thank you for that. I always interpret it as being able to use it in the close combat phase. Rather than you can shoot it while in close combat. Makes sense and seems funny at the same time. Thanks for clearing that up. What about it you had a chainsword and power sword.

[Finkmilkana]

What about it you had a chainsword and power sword.

You make your normal attacks with the power sword profile and then one extra attack with the chain sword profile.

[ashc]

Stalker boltgun veterans still look like a good option if you want a non-primaris firebase.

 

Stormbolter veterans with a mix of chainswords and stormshields with 1-4 frag cannons seem a very versatile midfield delivered however you wish.

 

What about dw veteran teams for getting in to combat? - primaris can't make a dedicated close combat squad so in theory could this be another area where the veterans shine?

[Moostick]

I've tried using Vets as assault focused and they just don't have enough going for them to do well for their costs.

 

8th edition itself is a shooter's game already, and they don't have enough boosts to melee like the BA's red thirst to make it worthwhile. It's a good backup plan if things get dicey where you drown your opponent in attacks, or have maybe one with a good weapon (sergeant or BS), but other than that I wouldn't make a dedicated assault Veteran unit. Too expensive and a waste of their SIA.

[Delta.Skies]

Stalker boltgun veterans still look like a good option if you want a non-primaris firebase.

 

Stormbolter veterans with a mix of chainswords and stormshields with 1-4 frag cannons seem a very versatile midfield delivered however you wish.

 

What about dw veteran teams for getting in to combat? - primaris can't make a dedicated close combat squad so in theory could this be another area where the veterans shine?

I'm going with power axes and bolters, black shield with lightning claws, and sarge with xeno blade. Keep em close to my frag cannon unit and watchmaster.

[Lemondish]

I've tried using Vets as assault focused and they just don't have enough going for them to do well for their costs.

 

8th edition itself is a shooter's game already, and they don't have enough boosts to melee like the BA's red thirst to make it worthwhile. It's a good backup plan if things get dicey where you drown your opponent in attacks, or have maybe one with a good weapon (sergeant or BS), but other than that I wouldn't make a dedicated assault Veteran unit. Too expensive and a waste of their SIA.

May I ask how it's a waste? The wargear doesn't replace the boltgun.

[Moostick]

Can't shoot the gun if they're in combat or dead. If you load a unit for assault, you'll likely want them to stay in assault, or then you're wasting the points spent on those melee weapons. But then they're wasting the premium we pay for those SIA bolters. The cheapest option is a power sword/maul and that's 21 pts a model already, but with only those it's not going to be a very effective assault unit. Add more things here and there and it gets out of hand fast.

 

And then on the other hand, you won't be killing most enemy units on a turn of shooting and charging (especially with MSU) Being this far up also puts them in much more danger of being shot up/counter charged on the subsequent enemy turn.

 

Sure, we can mitigate this with FCs, Terminators, VVs, and Bikers to counter more situations, but this drives the unit cost even higher and then we enter the realm of even more things being only useful some of the time, again "wasting" those points.40k is a game that favours shooty armies, and specialized units. Being a flexible, ok at everything unit is actually a trap and a crutch because it's difficult to put everything to use at all times.

[Lemondish]

Can't shoot the gun if they're in combat or dead. If you load a unit for assault, you'll likely want them to stay in assault, or then you're wasting the points spent on those melee weapons. But then they're wasting the premium we pay for those SIA bolters. The cheapest option is a power sword/maul and that's 21 pts a model already, but with only those it's not going to be a very effective assault unit. Add more things here and there and it gets out of hand fast.

 

And then on the other hand, you won't be killing most enemy units on a turn of shooting and charging (especially with MSU) Being this far up also puts them in much more danger of being shot up/counter charged on the subsequent enemy turn.

 

Sure, we can mitigate this with FCs, Terminators, VVs, and Bikers to counter more situations, but this drives the unit cost even higher and then we enter the realm of even more things being only useful some of the time, again "wasting" those points.40k is a game that favours shooty armies, and specialized units. Being a flexible, ok at everything unit is actually a trap and a crutch because it's difficult to put everything to use at all times.

Ah, well it's a good thing I don't care about that and will play my flexible marines anyway :D I also strongly disagree with your assessment - assault in 8th is one of the most important things for removing shooting, improving board control, and locking down your opponent. At the end of the day, it's free movement.

 

After all, there are a dozen different marine armies I can play that specialize every unit. They're just so booooooring though.

[Moostick]

Hey, do what you want. I made several assault units for fun and wanted to share the experience. This is strictly on how effective they may be, so if that's not a factor, then by all means.

 

I've charged them against many and they've even lost to termagaunts at a similar amount of points. It was sad, but hilarious. Just not enough attacks to kill horde or strong enough to kill high T/Sv melee-focused models.

 

Edit: posted before the edit: I don't think I ever said assault wasn't important. Just that the game favours shooting more (some exceptions to assault focused armies that get a myriad of special rules and strategems, like BA), and that ok-at-everything, but costs more units aren't points efficient.

[Chris521]

So I just did a couple small games to test out my Veterans and I think they did really well. 

 

I used the following list:

 

watch captain: Jetpack, storm bolter (with relic rounds), relic Blade

Terminator librarian: Storm bolter. staff

 

 

2 Kill teams with:

 

3 storm bolter, Chainsword

2 Storm bolter, storm shield

1 Frag cannon

 

and 1 kill team with

 

2 storm bolter, storm shield

3 frag cannon

 

They went up against some Catachans.  Since I intend to ally these guys with my guard, I took a few liberties by starting these guys in their deep struck position as if it were already turn 2.  The guard were also gunlineing it a bit to save more time.  To make up for these things the guard had about 150 points more and there weren't any bad units in the force which was made up of:

 

3 Comander 

6 infantry squads

2 Leman Russ Conquerors

2 basilisks

 

Both games ended in a blood bath with the captain and librarian (and a couple veterans in one game) on the field with just some tied up basilisks.

 

 

Some takeaways:

 

• The storm bolters were fantastic.  Even with just 5 in the squad, I ended up split firing a bit against the infantry squads since I didn't need 5 storm bolters to cripple them.

 

• The breacher setup was excellent.  Those basilisks, conquerors, and plasma guns have a lot of AP, so among 6 breachers, I think there 6 saves (in each game) that would have gone through the armor.

 

• I love that captain.  I originally didn't want to spend the points, but the relic blade is a nice weapon.  I think the real gem here is the storm bolter with the relic ammo.  4 shots which a captain will rarely miss, SIA for wounding (+ mission tactics or even a +1 to wound stratagem if you get the chance against a character) wound rolls of 6 cause an additional mortal wound, and finally 2 damage.

 

• I need to rethink how to handle the frag cannons.  The unit that had 3 of them didn't work out.  My original hope with that squad was to deep strike it closer to a vehicle and move it towards infantry in the next turn, but the Conquerors felt differently.  The ones that were buried in the over squads, however, made their points back against the guardsmen.  When deep striking the weapon, the real goal is to have it live until next turn. I don't think I'll ever put more than two of them in a deep striking squad again.   Maybe a rhino would work

 

 

Full deathwatch armies may need to find a different solution against armor, since the captain and librarian were the only thing keeping those Russes in check. But as allies for my guard, they did exactly what I hoped they would do.

[Lysere]

Hey, do what you want. I made several assault units for fun and wanted to share the experience. This is strictly on how effective they may be, so if that's not a factor, then by all means.

 

I've charged them against many and they've even lost to termagaunts at a similar amount of points. It was sad, but hilarious. Just not enough attacks to kill horde or strong enough to kill high T/Sv melee-focused models.

 

Edit: posted before the edit: I don't think I ever said assault wasn't important. Just that the game favours shooting more (some exceptions to assault focused armies that get a myriad of special rules and strategems, like BA), and that ok-at-everything, but costs more units aren't points efficient.

The most important part of an assault team is vanguard vets and bikes. Partly for more power weapons and partly so you can fall back, shoot, and recharge. A squad of reivers nearby to deny overwatch with their grenade could help a lot as well.

[Captain Boyle]

 

What about it you had a chainsword and power sword.

You make your normal attacks with the power sword profile and then one extra attack with the chain sword profile.

No, you only get the extra attack if you use the chainsword with one of your normal attacks. So you would get one powersword attack and two chainsword attacks

[Finkmilkana]

No, you only get the extra attack if you use the chainsword with one of your normal attacks. So you would get one powersword attack and two chainsword attacks

Nope: “Every time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon.” Every time he fights, no need to actually make a normal attack with the chain sword.

[Claws and Effect]

Hmmm.

 

So storm bolters get SIA now?

 

Shapeways here I come!

[Lysere]

So I got my codex finally and had a chance to go through it. Really liking the biker vanguard combo idea to combat squad off a kill team. Also I don't think I saw it mentioned but the Infernus heavy bolter is a touch cheaper as well and can be used with the hellfire shell stratagem so I'll probably try to squeeze in a pair of them to mix with bolter or stalker bolter veterans. Frag cannons will still be the heavy of choice for obvious reasons and I need to make some storm bolter vets for sure.

[Captain Boyle]

 

No, you only get the extra attack if you use the chainsword with one of your normal attacks. So you would get one powersword attack and two chainsword attacks

Nope: “Every time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon.” Every time he fights, no need to actually make a normal attack with the chain sword.

Oh, my bad. I must have got it mixed up in my head with some other weapon rules where you need to actually use the weapon to gain the bonuses. Ah well

[Danny Cyanide]

So what is everyone planning to use bits size for storm bolters? I'm thinking about these ones for now unless there is a better option out there:

 

https://bitsofwar.com/home/803-legionary-twin-thunder-gun.html

 

And these for Stalker bolters:

 

https://bitsofwar.com/home/756-legionary-thunder-gun-retribution-pattern.html

 

Any other good options?

[Lemondish]

So what is everyone planning to use bits size for storm bolters? I'm thinking about these ones for now unless there is a better option out there:

 

https://bitsofwar.com/home/803-legionary-twin-thunder-gun.html

 

And these for Stalker bolters:

 

https://bitsofwar.com/home/756-legionary-thunder-gun-retribution-pattern.html

 

Any other good options?

Not a huge fan of those stocks on the stalker.

 

As for Storm bolters, I think I'll try a go at using the ones that come on the Grey Knight Paladins. Wrist mounted SBs look pretty sweet.

 

That or Sternguard ones.

 

Though I'm also okay with sticking with boltguns to save points if I need to.

[Stiff Crayons]

So I got my codex finally and had a chance to go through it. Really liking the biker vanguard combo idea to combat squad off a kill team. Also I don't think I saw it mentioned but the Infernus heavy bolter is a touch cheaper as well and can be used with the hellfire shell stratagem so I'll probably try to squeeze in a pair of them to mix with bolter or stalker bolter veterans. Frag cannons will still be the heavy of choice for obvious reasons and I need to make some storm bolter vets for sure.

This is my plan. With the Hellfire strat I think it definitely justifies including at least one IHB in a given squad. I for one and am running one ten man vet team with three frag cannons, one IHB, sergeant with SB and the rest with bolters and storm shields (one is a VV). The easy D3 Mortal Wounds and heavy flamer charge protection is nice.

 

Question: does the to-hit roll for the Hellfire strat get a -1 if the target moved/deep struck that turn? I know it says -1 I’d firing both the bolter and flamer, but would moving also cause a -1?

[Captain Boyle]

So what is everyone planning to use bits size for storm bolters? I'm thinking about these ones for now unless there is a better option out there:

 

https://bitsofwar.com/home/803-legionary-twin-thunder-gun.html

 

And these for Stalker bolters:

 

https://bitsofwar.com/home/756-legionary-thunder-gun-retribution-pattern.html

 

Any other good options?

I made my own stalkers. Took a regular boltgun, glued a scope to the top of it, then got a spare smoke launcher and snipped off one of the tubed and glued that over the muzzle of the bolter. Looks pretty snazzy and kt was bits I had hanging round anyway

[Azaiel]

So what is everyone planning to use bits size for storm bolters? I'm thinking about these ones for now unless there is a better option out there:

 

https://bitsofwar.com/home/803-legionary-twin-thunder-gun.html

 

And these for Stalker bolters:

 

https://bitsofwar.com/home/756-legionary-thunder-gun-retribution-pattern.html

 

Any other good options?

Anvil industry Negotiator sniper rifle is what I went for stalker bolters:

http://anvilindustry.co.uk/The-Armoury/Rifles-Shotguns-Pistols/M88-%22Negotiator%22

 

And they have a option for stormbolters aswell:

http://anvilindustry.co.uk/The-Armoury/Rifles-Shotguns-Pistols/Double-Tap

[Vel'Cona]

+1 for Anvil Industry, they're good dudes and the product is excellent for the price.  Too bad those Twin Carbines just went OOS (you silly min-maxers, you! :P).

[6262]

Has anyone used Pop Goes the Monkey's Blitz pistols? Do they fit on power armor figures or terminators? I can't quite tell, but am assuming they're for power armor

[Whiskie]

Speaking of Vets, it recently came to me that one good way to get some mileage out of them would be minimum sized units equipped with Storm Bolters, Chainswords and nothing else.

 

It's only 100 points for a unit that can teleport in with the Stratagem and unleash up to 20 shots with SIA and the potential of a Mission Tactics buff.  You could of course load them into Blackstars, Razorbacks or use whatever delivery method you want.  They have a high enough rate of fire that they can even be deployed normally and shoot from 30" away firing Kraken bolts.  It seems like a cheap and effective way to fill out some Troop slots in a Battalion if you're looking to get more CPs.

[CCE1981]

Speaking of Vets, it recently came to me that one good way to get some mileage out of them would be minimum sized units equipped with Storm Bolters, Chainswords and nothing else.

 

It's only 100 points for a unit that can teleport in with the Stratagem and unleash up to 20 shots with SIA and the potential of a Mission Tactics buff.  You could of course load them into Blackstars, Razorbacks or use whatever delivery method you want.  They have a high enough rate of fire that they can even be deployed normally and shoot from 30" away firing Kraken bolts.  It seems like a cheap and effective way to fill out some Troop slots in a Battalion if you're looking to get more CPs.

You can swap your boltgun with TWO items from the Deathwatch Equipment list, so why not take 2x Stormbolters per Marine?