DW Veterans

[spacewatch]

Very interesting discussion and weapon comparisions here, guys. I too think that SB looks good but it certainly is not "do everyting" weapon. After reading the dex I decided to make just 6 new SB Vets (two per squad to boost firepower), two new FC Vets (now I have 8 of them) and 5 Stalker bolter Vets (now total of 15 in my army). Stalker bolter S4AP-3 at 24" is safe way to shoot "plasma/SB-effectively" but from longer distance. Made these new models after making following small table where relative effectivenes and cost per wound of some typical DW weapons are compared to SB (best possible SIA ammo assumed, long=long range, RF=rapid fire, ppw=points per wound).

 

Weapon             T4Sv6                           T4Sv3

                   long  ppw   RF     ppw          long  ppw   RF     ppw

Boltgun + SIA      0,50  35    0,50   17           0,50  72    0,50   36

SB + SIA           1,00  22    1.00   11           1,00  45    1,00   23

DW Shotgun         0,90  23    0,45   23           0,75  57    0,38   57

Stalker + SIA      1,20  18    0,60   18           1,25  36    0,63   36

HB                 1,44  20    0,72   20           1,50  39    0,75   39

AC                 2,88  21    1,44   21           3,00  43    1,50   43

Plasmagun          0,48  65    0,48   33           0,83  78    0,83   39

Plasmagun SS       0,60  52    0,60   26           1,04  63    1,04   31

Melta              0,48  74    0,24   74           1,00  74    0,50   74

Frag, frag         -           2,52    9           -           2,63   18

Frag, shell        1,20  37    0,60   37           1,33  69    1,04   44

 

Not that I want to start any new discussion. Just sharing what I have done.

 

Edit. Table formatted ...and corrected.

[Vel'Cona]

I for one appreciate the Mathhammer, even if I don't entirely comprehend it. :P  Thank you for your hard work, spacewatch!

 

For my DW, I'm going to try several builds before settling on one or two of the most effective.  Currently, I'm interested in:

 

5 Vets w/ 4 SB, FC (All-around firepower)

5 Vets w/ 4 SB, HB (Don't forget the Inferno Bolts Strat, my dudes!)

5 Vets w/ 5 Combi-Plasma (Madness I know, but I have the models ready and it just sounds like a ton of fun)

 

Also, I noticed that the Blackshield and Watch Sergeant seem to be free upgrades now; is there any reason not to take them for the extra attack/wargear options/Heroic Intervention shenanigans?

[Finkmilkana]

Great list, thanks for the work posting it. Shows that at least against infantry, the stalker is best at long ranges, SB in rapid fire rate and FC under 8.

 

Plasmagun SS 0,60 52 0,60 26 1,04 63 1,04 31

Frag, shell 1,20 37 0,60 37 1,33 69 0,83 55

 

I assume plasmagun SS means supercharged? Then seems to be some small error here, the FC should have the same efficiency as the overcharged plasma against t4 3+ models (the FC has the same profile at that range, besides having Str 9 and not killing the model on a 1).

 

What do you mean with AC? I don’t think vets can take either assault cannons or auto cannons. Is it there just for comparisons sake or do you mean something completely different?

[Vel'Cona]

What do you mean with AC? I don’t think vets can take either assault cannons or auto cannons. Is it there just for comparisons sake or do you mean something completely different?

 

I'd assume he added that for measure of comparison with Terminators, just in case anyone was insane enough to want to pay what GW thinks they're worth in C: DW :P

[Finkmilkana]

 

 

What do you mean with AC? I don’t think vets can take either assault cannons or auto cannons. Is it there just for comparisons sake or do you mean something completely different?

I'd assume he added that for measure of comparison with Terminators, just in case anyone was insane enough to want to pay what GW thinks they're worth in C: DW :P

Yeah, but the ppw seem to include the cost of the model, which is what’s confused me.^^

[spacewatch]

Great list, thanks for the work posting it. Shows that at least against infantry, the stalker is best at long ranges, SB in rapid fire rate and FC under 8.

 

Plasmagun SS 0,60 52 0,60 26 1,04 63 1,04 31

Frag, shell 1,20 37 0,60 37 1,33 69 0,83 55

I assume plasmagun SS means supercharged? Then seems to be some small error here, the FC should have the same efficiency as the overcharged plasma against t4 3+ models (the FC has the same profile at that range, besides having Str 9 and not killing the model on a 1).

 

What do you mean with AC? I don’t think vets can take either assault cannons or auto cannons. Is it there just for comparisons sake or do you mean something completely different?

 

 

Ah, you're right. Sorry about the error, I was practically half blind when did this about week ago. RF-range Frag/shell value corrected.

 

AC means Assault Cannon and its there just for comparisons sake.

[vigitant]

Most of my lists are ending up with 18-28 SB vets, and 8 SB on bikes.  2 units of 9 in rhinos with a WM.  either 2 bike squads with SB Sgt, or 4 bikes and a VV squadding off of 5 SB Vets.  Then another one.

They pack a punch, but i do think we need to run helblaster KT's as well.  Beefed up KT's with SS Vets and Min Termies can spit SB's and FC at close range while tanking stupid amounts of fire.  Intercessors are fairly good back/mid objective holders.  Bike units are cheap and throw out alot of SB shots.  Bike Combat squads are fast obsec units that are hard to lock down. 

I think between Helblasters and SB's, FC's have a harder time justifying their points, and aren't necassary anymore.  But theyre still good.  They still give us oppressive overwatch.  They're still super versatile.

 

So to sum it all up:  Y'all are right.  Storm Bolters aren't the answer to everything.  They cant carry the army alone.  But they are probably our best choice for most of our vets right now.  Use them to open up the board for your other elements, but dont make them your one and only strength.

 

Guys, GW has given us more than i could have imagined.  We've got options now. 

[Lemondish]

Most of my lists are ending up with 18-28 SB vets, and 8 SB on bikes. 2 units of 9 in rhinos with a WM. either 2 bike squads with SB Sgt, or 4 bikes and a VV squadding off of 5 SB Vets. Then another one.

They pack a punch, but i do think we need to run helblaster KT's as well. Beefed up KT's with SS Vets and Min Termies can spit SB's and FC at close range while tanking stupid amounts of fire. Intercessors are fairly good back/mid objective holders. Bike units are cheap and throw out alot of SB shots. Bike Combat squads are fast obsec units that are hard to lock down.

I think between Helblasters and SB's, FC's have a harder time justifying their points, and aren't necassary anymore. But theyre still good. They still give us oppressive overwatch. They're still super versatile.

 

So to sum it all up: Y'all are right. Storm Bolters aren't the answer to everything. They cant carry the army alone. But they are probably our best choice for most of our vets right now. Use them to open up the board for your other elements, but dont make them your one and only strength.

 

Guys, GW has given us more than i could have imagined. We've got options now.

I think that's all that any of us have been saying. SBs are worth their costs for any vets that would have otherwise gone without an upgrade.

[Vel'Cona]

Guys, GW has given us more than i could have imagined.  We've got options now. 

 

This Frater gets it! :)

[zero88]

Besides the storm bolter, how else are people equipping their Power Armor kill teams? I'm struggling finding good options for a footslogging team besides running stalker bolters. Do frag cannons even have a place besides being dropped out of a Corvus? Let's see some Veteran setups

[Chris521]

I've been putting a frag cannon (sometimes 2 but it's overkill) in my deep striking storm bolter squads.

 

Th squad looks like this

 

Sarge -Storm bolter/chainsword (sarge is a free upgrade so why not)

2 Veterans-Storm Bolter/Chainsword

2 Veterans Storm Bolter/Storm Shield

1 Veteran-Frag Cannon.

 

When the squad deep strikes in, the frag Cannon will likely split fire to somewhere else.  Any damage it does here is just a bonus.  It's main goal is to survive till the next turn and get within 8 inches of something.  I think they are just too expensive to have a bunch of them, so I've found that the do much better scattered about and hard to focus down.

[Vel'Cona]

Besides the storm bolter, how else are people equipping their Power Armor kill teams? I'm struggling finding good options for a footslogging team besides running stalker bolters. Do frag cannons even have a place besides being dropped out of a Corvus? Let's see some Veteran setups

 

I'm going to put in a vote for the humble Heavy Bolter and Missile Launcher.  Now that GW has given us access to the compatible Strategems, those weapons just got a lot sexier for dealing with a vast variety of threats, and we can still outfit other squad members with SB/SPB as needed to support fire.  Alternatively, Chris521's usage of the FC is a prime concept since it also has amazing synergy with the SBs in terms of range, though keep in mind that squads used in this way are likely to get knocked out quickly if nearby threats are not nullified to a sufficient degree!

[leth]

I am planning my Vet Squads around half biker/half vets.  Getting T5 and an extra wound for 9 more points per model is hard to pass up.  Gonna try running them with 4 frag cannons for Anti-more heavy to see how they do.  Can always combat squad after they drop so my bikers can run and have fun. 

 

Veterans, per point, only beat out intercessors when you go focus purely on offense, and so they should be used as such.  For back field sitters, Primaris, for get in their face deep striking units? Veterans. 

 

Stalker bolters IMO are a hard sell for me because, again the Intercessors get half the shots(only while at range) but twice the wounds, and can move/fire without limitations. 

[Lemondish]

I am planning my Vet Squads around half biker/half vets.  Getting T5 and an extra wound for 9 more points per model is hard to pass up.  Gonna try running them with 4 frag cannons for Anti-more heavy to see how they do.  Can always combat squad after they drop so my bikers can run and have fun. 

 

Veterans, per point, only beat out intercessors when you go focus purely on offense, and so they should be used as such.  For back field sitters, Primaris, for get in their face deep striking units? Veterans. 

 

Veterans are also a bit more survivable against the very things that Primaris are afraid of. Honestly, the lack of invulns through storm shields is what will forever plague DW Intercessor squads. 

[leth]

 

I am planning my Vet Squads around half biker/half vets.  Getting T5 and an extra wound for 9 more points per model is hard to pass up.  Gonna try running them with 4 frag cannons for Anti-more heavy to see how they do.  Can always combat squad after they drop so my bikers can run and have fun. 

 

Veterans, per point, only beat out intercessors when you go focus purely on offense, and so they should be used as such.  For back field sitters, Primaris, for get in their face deep striking units? Veterans. 

 

Veterans are also a bit more survivable against the very things that Primaris are afraid of. Honestly, the lack of invulns through storm shields is what will forever plague DW Intercessor squads. 

 

 

Not most of the time once you factor in points. Intercessor is the same points as a storm bolter Veteran. Against anything damage one they are twice as survivable, but at that point you are spending a LOT of points on something that dies like a marine. 

 

But I have attached the calculations I made awhile back for special issue ammo.  Hope they are helpful! First one is just generic hit charts.  Second one is odds of causing a wound per hit.  Final chart is the first two multiplied for no-rerolls hitting on 3s(which is why the dragonfire has one that is over 100%). Gonna work on a more comprehensive chart soon/update it.  To adjust based on different guns base AP just shift the save down by 1 to 2. 

 

[Moostick]

It's very easy for an opponent to circumvent the 3++.

 

Majority of incoming fire are still going to be AP 0, and they're still just T4, 1W marines. It's easy to get lost in spending points on SS. If I had to choose between paying points for a 3++ or a base 2W, I'd prefer the latter most of the time.

[Prot]

I am going to sound super boring here, but as soon as my tournament is over I plan on making a bunch of vanilla Intercessor squads. I'm one of the few that really like the models and I personally think Poison 2+ even at -1 AP is going to really be a problem for a lot of elite units like... Custodes bikes, etc.

 

I really like that my 'vets' will still be usable, but again being a bit boring here but I can't wait to do basic bolter squads, and pull out my shield dudes, with the odd  Frag Cannon.

[Vel'Cona]

I am going to sound super boring here, but as soon as my tournament is over I plan on making a bunch of vanilla Intercessor squads. I'm one of the few that really like the models and I personally think Poison 2+ even at -1 AP is going to really be a problem for a lot of elite units like... Custodes bikes, etc.

 

After reading thru the codex a few times, I've also determined that Intercessors are an excellent option for footslogging into battle since the addition of SIA gives them so much flexibility.  They're really not terribly expensive on a per-wounds basis comparable to Veterans, with their primary downside being lack of flexibility.  That being said, being able to blend Hellblasters and Aggressors gives immense utility for high-priority target killing and volume of fire, respectively.  My only qualm is having to build up another unit of Intercessors with an existing C: SM army largely based around Primaris already in the wings . . . :P

[ashc]

Like I said early on, intercessors make for a great back/midfield and an aggressor present in the unit with the right setup can make them surprisingly mobile.

[Lemondish]

It's very easy for an opponent to circumvent the 3++.

 

Majority of incoming fire are still going to be AP 0, and they're still just T4, 1W marines. It's easy to get lost in spending points on SS. If I had to choose between paying points for a 3++ or a base 2W, I'd prefer the latter most of the time.

That's why you add a Terminator (or two if you have the points) - then the AP 0 is hitting 2 to 4 wounds of 2+ armour. Or you take cover, and then EVERY vet is 2+.

 

Take two storm shields and you can tank the AP for 10 points. You are now more survivable than a Primaris marine against plasma or other high AP weapons regardless of the damage they do. Of course I don't see the need to bring any more than that. Combined with a Terminator you've just helped them survive the return fire after they've been dropped off/in.

 

In the 5 or so games since the codex, they've been significantly more survivable and bring far more damage than the Primaris even though I've been using them very aggressively. Primaris have been great, but they're the meat and potatoes. My veterans have truly been the best pieces of this force. MVPs every game as long as they have a Terminator, a VV, and a couple storm shields.

[Prot]

I agree that you can extend survivability with all these tricks but what I found to be a detriment to that is incorporating damage. Next thing you know the squad costs a fortune and you don’t have enough boots on the table. It’s a difficult balancing act for sure.

 

So shotguns appear to be a poor choice. Is anyone arming vets with them?

[Moostick]

 

It's very easy for an opponent to circumvent the 3++.

 

Majority of incoming fire are still going to be AP 0, and they're still just T4, 1W marines. It's easy to get lost in spending points on SS. If I had to choose between paying points for a 3++ or a base 2W, I'd prefer the latter most of the time.

That's why you add a Terminator (or two if you have the points) - then the AP 0 is hitting 2 to 4 wounds of 2+ armour. Or you take cover, and then EVERY vet is 2+.

 

Take two storm shields and you can tank the AP for 10 points. You are now more survivable than a Primaris marine against plasma or other high AP weapons regardless of the damage they do. Of course I don't see the need to bring any more than that. Combined with a Terminator you've just helped them survive the return fire after they've been dropped off/in.

 

These are all things we've been using for a long time now. I don't disagree it'll help mitigate things, but It only works so often. All it generally takes is one enemy troop volley to kill that Terminator or more.

 

DW is an army that is full of surprises the first time someone plays them, but they are a very easy army to "solve" if your repeat opponent takes lessons learned to heart.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

It's very easy for an opponent to circumvent the 3++.

 

Majority of incoming fire are still going to be AP 0, and they're still just T4, 1W marines. It's easy to get lost in spending points on SS. If I had to choose between paying points for a 3++ or a base 2W, I'd prefer the latter most of the time.

That's why you add a Terminator (or two if you have the points) - then the AP 0 is hitting 2 to 4 wounds of 2+ armour. Or you take cover, and then EVERY vet is 2+.

 

Take two storm shields and you can tank the AP for 10 points. You are now more survivable than a Primaris marine against plasma or other high AP weapons regardless of the damage they do. Of course I don't see the need to bring any more than that. Combined with a Terminator you've just helped them survive the return fire after they've been dropped off/in.

These are all things we've been using for a long time now. I don't disagree it'll help mitigate things, but It only works so often. All it generally takes is one enemy troop volley to kill that Terminator or more.

 

DW is an army that is full of surprises the first time someone plays them, but they are a very easy army to "solve" if your repeat opponent takes lessons learned to heart.

The difference that everybody seems to forget is that there was no way to really hold those units off the board AND deliver them perfectly where you wanted to without issue or significantly increased cost. A squad like that could only fit in the Blackstar after all, and they had about half the offensive output for the same points. Their durability tools are no longer needed just to help them survive while trudging up the board, nor do they need to rely on an expensive Corvus to protect them. THAT is where I've found their same old durability tools to be useful - in saving me 250 points while ensuring they get to fire with full effect the first turn they shoot.

 

The durability tools then stem the bleeding of the counter attack. The success I've found with these options is specifically because they maximize the time this glasscannon is available to deliver its payload. Now, unlike before, the durability is kicking in after getting a full shooting phase and without relying on 250 points of flying metal box. Those points saved mean a second super kitted vet squad ready to drop down and combine with the first to wipe out its biggest threats while remaining at full strength when taking the counter punch. I don't think we've had THAT before :)

 

These guys hit hard in the games I've played so far. SIA SBs are phenomenal, and getting FCs into the half range bracket without taking any casualties really helps put the hurt on harder targets. By the time they arrive on the field, I've used my Primaris and other fire base elements to severely deplete their screening and bubblewrap, so I've found less fire gets directed their way at that point. By then there's an overload of threats unless the enemy has been particularly effective maneuvering through my own screen.

 

I also have a few examples in my games where I wish I had a teleport homer - I think there's some hidden potential there... I'll need to try one out.

[Moostick]

We had universal deepstrike and very cheap drop pods in 7th (that could carry everything!) without the 9" rule.  We were even able to get within flamer range the turn we DSed if we got lucky.

 

Marines are actually even less durable now in 8th compared to 7th, plus this beta rule that may or may not stick, weakens this style of play a lot. This is where me often saying that within the core rules themselves (excluding strategems), this codex really didn't give us anything "new" comes from, except SIA on SBs. We've had and used all these things before.

[mjrwaud]

With the advent of the new (beta) deepstrike rules limiting both the number and timing of units we can really deepstrike and our new access to the teleportarium strategy, it -ever- worthwhile putting our vets in a drop pod? Best case it seems to be trading points for CPs...