What’s our most point efficient units?

[Hantheman]

I’ve been thinking about this for low point games, what has the most bang for buck? Pre-FAQ the dark talon was far and away up there now I’m thinking along the lines of:

 

Aggressors with boltfists- the 112 points for a lot of dakka and shoots twice and reroll 1s to hit if standing still. That’s quite a lot of shots!

 

Azrael- he is expensive but for only 180 points he does a hell of a lot of work defensively. However I think I’m low points games you can’t play defensively because each unit hurts a lot more to lose so I don’t think he fits in low point games.

 

That’s all I’ve come up with. What do you lot think?

[Vector Strike]

I'm using a bit of my free time to create a giantormous excel file exactly for that. I'm on the early stages into the anti-tank units and later I'll do anti-infantry.

 

I can give a head-on: for now, I've compared some AT builds, mostly FW stuff.

Supposing an enemy vehicle sporting T7 3+ armour save:

- Deimos Predator with 2 lascannons and 1 magna-melta: 39,05 points per damage (this was calculated considering the best situation ever for the vehicle - i.e. magna-melta at 12" or less, dreadnoughts still on place, etc - and average rolls for hit, wound and damage)

- DP with 2 lascannons and 1 plasma destroyer: 43,05

[didn't factored all-lascannon Deimos Predator because it is exactly the same cost and profile of a normal Predator, but with +1W]

- Relic Contemptor Dreadnought with 2 heavy plasma cannons and 1 cyclone missile launcher: 29,56 (Weapons of the Dark Age factored in; 38,61 without it; both overcharging)

- RCD with 2 multi-meltas and 1 CML: 35,38

- RCD with 4 lascannons and 1 CML: 34,39

- RCD with 4 autocannons and 1 CML: 41,74

 

Thus meaning, for now, that a Relic Contemptor Dreadnought with 2 HPC and 1 CML is the best bang for a buck in our arsenal in this limited stuff against the most common enemy vehicle met in the field (without WotDA, RCD with lascannons and CML is better). I still have to make calculations for all other AT sources and certainly something else will show up.

 

Another best options against common enemies:

T5 4+/5++ (Raiders): RCD with 4 autocannons + CML

T6 4+ (Ghost Arks - not counting Quantum Shielding): RCD with 2 HPC + CML

T7 2+/5++ (Riptides): same as above

T8 2+ (Land Raiders): RCD with 4 lascannons + CML

[Endgame]

I'm pretty sure that the most efficient anti tank unit is a 5 man, 4 lascannon dev squad with cherub. That is 2x bs2+ lascannon shots and 3x 3+ lascannon shots for 170 points.

 

Bolt storm aggressors are the most efficient anti troop I've found, but with only 18" range it can be difficult to reliably get maximum efficiency out of them. Scout bikes are similar efficiency to moving aggressors when shooting but can project that much further out

[Berzul]

Regardless of role, if its about bang for buck, I'd say Ravening Bike Squads.

 

27 points a miniature, its M14, Advance 6 flat, T5 W2 3+/4++, and has 2/4 bolter shots, can gain Grim Resolve, its just a great harrassmwnt unit, screen and chaff killer, and objective getter.

[lhavoc]

I’m still thinking that Primaris Hellblasters are one of our best. Azrael gives them 4+ Invul and rerolls, with the addition of Grim Resolve, Overcharge and “Weapons of the Dark Age” makes them an enormous board control castle unit. An Ancient, Lieutenant or Apothecary enhances this castle greatly. And it is also somewhat mobile, forming a fort for the Death and Raven wings to operate from. Expensive, complex and requires a good tactician to make it work. (And a LOT of CP, like what you would get with a Primarch Master Strategest)

[Berzul]

Yeah, but the questio was for a single unit, wasnt it? You are talking combos

[lhavoc]

Then go with Hellblasters. As you can see, plasma is good for us. And many combos can only enhance it. Our codex really pushed Primaris on us, so the Hellblasters form the basic fort for the rest of our forces to Deep Strike/Maneuver while the base “Stands and Delivers”.

[Pvnisher]

Sucks that I’m anti Primaris as hellblasters seem fun.

[lhavoc]

I was too, but while the explanation in the Codex is pretty lame, there is supposed to be a Black Library novel coming out in the next month which is supposed to explain how the new Primaris gained a semi-acceptance. An interesting point however, where did Cawl recruit the raw stock for Primaris Marines come from. The most likely source of recruits for the Dark Angels was Caliban, which during the time of the Heresy and the Scouring was under the control of Luther (Oh NOOOOOOOO!!!). So these NEW Marines have memories and expericnces of Caliban, the Order and the Legion that are completely different from the current leadership of the Chapters. The Primaris remember the Heresy and Caliban from a first hand point of view. They were THERE! Which may be a shock to many senior members of the current Chapters who only know of these events as myths and legends (not to mention half-truths and distortions).

 

I think that GW intentionally designed the current Codex in order to force a Primaris/Greenwing paradigm. Since at least 5th Edition, GW has expressed dissatisfaction with the power of the Deathwing and Ravenwing. (Deathwing was good in 5th and Ravenwing was the star of 6th & 7th) Just looking at options for non primaris, I have been a fan of the Lascannon Dev Squad for years, but I am hopeful that a new Chapter Approved will make Terminators more effective or give us back teleport homers so that DeathRaven can become a more viable tactic once again.

[Isual]

Offtopic rambling:

I don't think the original recruits for Primaris came from caliban. RG initiated the program to compensate for the lower headcount of the capters, required by the codex astartes. He wanted to strengthen the imperial forces against a comeback of the chaos legions. For me it sounds more like Caliban was already gone at this point and the recruits were from the remains of the legion.

 

Back to topic:

 

I think hellblasters are prety efficient on their own. Anothter unit that supprises me almost every time is my beloved dakkabot aka twin autocannon mortis Dreadnought, venerable or not. And if you want to move without losing the re-roll 1s he can function like a "count-as-master" with "Wisdom of the ancients".

[Deathwalker]

Hellblaster's

 

End thread.

[Helycon]

I'm pretty sure that Inceptors are up there as well, but their efficiency varies due to the 2D3 shots per model. If you roll well, however...!

[Dark_Master]

Hellblaster's

 

End thread.

Which type though?

 

DM

[march10k]

So many assumptions and intangibles.  Assuming close range for plasma, melta, etc, assuming flamers are in range, and so on, these are all horrible assumptions based on the best case scenario.  And how do you quantify the value of deepstrike, or of being able to deploy outside the deployment zone?  The value of a company ancient's aura of last gasp free shooting?  A techmarine's impact?  

 

Trying to assess objectively what are the most points-efficient units is a fool's errand.  Subjective opinions based on anecdotal evidence are actually far more valuable for the real question being asked, which is: "What units should a DA player field in smaller games?"

 

Some of the best DA units, like Azzy, are prohibitively expensive in smaller games.  Others are only good in combination, and those combinations, like Azzy, eat up unreasonable percentages of your points allowance.  I would try very hard to keep each unit well under 150 points while scaling down your demand for capabilities like anti-tank proportional to the game size.  

 

My own ideas:

 

Scouts.  We use them for bubble wrap and to qualify for a battalion in larger games, but in smaller ones, they're actually credible units.  

 

Devastators.  A five man squad with 2-3 weapons.  Maybe two lascannons, a plasma cannon, and a cherub?  You probably need only one squad like this and don't need any other antitank?

 

Inceptors with assault bolters.  A single squad of three will do amazing work in smaller games, like deleting the devastator squad I just mentioned.

 

Master.  Pretty survivable, basic reroll support and assault deterrent for the devastators, just don't overspend on cool guy kit, and he's pretty cheap.

 

Techmarine.  A very cheap 2nd HQ for that battalion (in this small game, the scouts aren't the tax, the second HQ is), and he can repair the next item.

 

Razorback.  Counts as a proper tank at this points level. 

 

Ravenwing bikes.  Great mobility and versatile special weapons options.  I would look at squads of 4, but even 6 wouldn't be overdoing it.

 

Company vets.  With stormbolters for 18 ppm?  Yes, please!  But so many other options.  I might even go with stormbolter and lightning claw  if the table is 4x4 or smaller.

 

Hellblasters.  Especially on a smaller table where 15" range is less of an issue. Support with master, so it's these guys or the devastators, either one works.  5-7 models.

[Deathwalker]

 

Hellblaster's

 

End thread.

Which type though?

 

DM

 

Normal Incinerators, assuming a 6x4 table. Even at single shots, WotDA makes them as efficient as Lascannons for Anti-armour, and better than lascannons for models like Custodes as there is no variation in wounds. The only thing that may be more efficient is a 5 man dev squad with plasma cannons, but each wound they receive hurts far more than it does on hellblasters.

[march10k]

 

 

Hellblaster's

 

End thread.

Which type though?

 

DM

 

Normal Incinerators, assuming a 6x4 table. Even at single shots, WotDA makes them as efficient as Lascannons for Anti-armour, and better than lascannons for models like Custodes as there is no variation in wounds. The only thing that may be more efficient is a 5 man dev squad with plasma cannons, but each wound they receive hurts far more than it does on hellblasters.

 

Correction:  not anti-armor, anti-T7.  Lascannons are WAY better against land raiders, leman russes, etc.  And you're also presuming that the target is in range of the incinerators, which is really sort of an afterthought for lascannons. 

[Deathwalker]

Overcharged, they are S8, right?

Grim resolve alone mitigates a lot of blowing up without the need for supporting re-rolls.

 

Quite honestly, range is so very rarely a problem past 24" as to be immaterial, or I could argue that you can't double tap a lascannon at 15" or closer. 

[march10k]

Overcharged, they are S8, right?

Yes, that's accounted for.  S8 wounds T8 on 4+, lascannons do it on 3+.  That's a huge difference.  It is true that T7 is more common, and overcharged plasma works just as well as lascannons against those targets.  But the flip side is that the lascannons aren't "worse" against T7, they're gaining everything against T8 and losing nothing against T7. 

 

Grim resolve only works if you're standing still.  That's not how hellblasters function.  They have to work to get into 15" range to get that second shot that makes them decently points-efficient.  Nobody's going to give up that second shot to them gratis.  So grim resolve isn't even part of the hellblasters conversation, they must have a master in support to work properly.

 

I have no idea what you mean by "range is so very rarely an issue past 24" as to be immaterial."  Please explain.

[Deathwalker]

 

Overcharged, they are S8, right?

Yes, that's accounted for.  S8 wounds T8 on 4+, lascannons do it on 3+.  That's a huge difference.  It is true that T7 is more common, and overcharged plasma works just as well as lascannons against those targets.  But the flip side is that the lascannons aren't "worse" against T7, they're gaining everything against T8 and losing nothing against T7. 

 

Grim resolve only works if you're standing still.  That's not how hellblasters function.  They have to work to get into 15" range to get that second shot that makes them decently points-efficient.  Nobody's going to give up that second shot to them gratis.  So grim resolve isn't even part of the hellblasters conversation, they must have a master in support to work properly.

 

I have no idea what you mean by "range is so very rarely an issue past 24" as to be immaterial."  Please explain.

 

1:

You just changed your baseline to keep your argument. You said T7, And you also admit that a lot of armour is T7, not 8.

I cannot argue shifting goalposts.

 

2:

Standing still is -exactly- how Hellblasters in a DA army are efficient, they are less efficient in a BA army because the DA chapter tactics REWARD standing still. If you move them and loose grim resolve, they become less efficient. They don't have to "work" to get within 15", they want people to get within 15" of THEM. 

 

3: Range.

Most weapons operate under the 24" paradigm, some to 30", some to 18" but nearly all  High S heavy weapons have much greater ranges, but nearly all of them have either limited to 1 shot, or D3 shots no matter the range.

If I have no multi-wound targets for your Lascannon, they are costing you roughly 5 points per turn to kill one model at 48", or 1".

[Trunkello]

 

 

 

 

Overcharged, they are S8, right?

Yes, that's accounted for. S8 wounds T8 on 4+, lascannons do it on 3+. That's a huge difference. It is true that T7 is more common, and overcharged plasma works just as well as lascannons against those targets. But the flip side is that the lascannons aren't "worse" against T7, they're gaining everything against T8 and losing nothing against T7.

 

Grim resolve only works if you're standing still. That's not how hellblasters function. They have to work to get into 15" range to get that second shot that makes them decently points-efficient. Nobody's going to give up that second shot to them gratis. So grim resolve isn't even part of the hellblasters conversation, they must have a master in support to work properly.

 

I have no idea what you mean by "range is so very rarely an issue past 24" as to be immaterial." Please explain.

1:

You just changed your baseline to keep your argument. You said T7, And you also admit that a lot of armour is T7, not 8.

I cannot argue shifting goalposts.

 

2:

Standing still is -exactly- how Hellblasters in a DA army are efficient, they are less efficient in a BA army because the DA chapter tactics REWARD standing still. If you move them and loose grim resolve, they become less efficient. They don't have to "work" to get within 15", they want people to get within 15" of THEM.

 

3: Range.

Most weapons operate under the 24" paradigm, some to 30", some to 18" but nearly all High S heavy weapons have much greater ranges, but nearly all of them have either limited to 1 shot, or D3 shots no matter the range.

If I have no multi-wound targets for your Lascannon, they are costing you roughly 5 points per turn to kill one model at 48", or 1".

You dont need grimresolve for reroll hitrolls of 1. Thats what Azrael is for or a captain. If you want the budget version of hellblaster trickery then go for it.

Also what do you mean by people want to get inside the range of hellblasters? I would just laugh off the 10 man squad if they can only shoot 10 shots but cry in pain if they shoot 20 s8 ap-4 3dmg shots at me. You cant shoot backfield heavy armor or even mobile hight T targets if they are on the opposite edge. If you move them out of cover they loose the +1 cover but have the chance to dish out unearthly amount of damage. If you moove them you propably going to bring azrael with them so rerolls are not an issue and also going to bring a darkshroud to compensate for the lost coversave.

[Deathwalker]

Trunkello.

I was trying to avoid adding additional elements (Azrael for invun bubble and native rerolls, moving or not, Chapter Ancient for hitting on 2+ if you blow up or just get shot anyway, etc)

I completely agree with you, but I was just trying to stick to a single unit, rather than the support structure that makes them better :)

[march10k]

 

 

Overcharged, they are S8, right?

Yes, that's accounted for.  S8 wounds T8 on 4+, lascannons do it on 3+.  That's a huge difference.  It is true that T7 is more common, and overcharged plasma works just as well as lascannons against those targets.  But the flip side is that the lascannons aren't "worse" against T7, they're gaining everything against T8 and losing nothing against T7. 

 

Grim resolve only works if you're standing still.  That's not how hellblasters function.  They have to work to get into 15" range to get that second shot that makes them decently points-efficient.  Nobody's going to give up that second shot to them gratis.  So grim resolve isn't even part of the hellblasters conversation, they must have a master in support to work properly.

 

I have no idea what you mean by "range is so very rarely an issue past 24" as to be immaterial."  Please explain.

 

1:

You just changed your baseline to keep your argument. You said T7, And you also admit that a lot of armour is T7, not 8.

I cannot argue shifting goalposts.

 

The hell I did.  I merely responded to YOU mentioning S8 by clarifying WHY the S9 of a lascannon matters.  I did concede that a lot of armor is T7, but my whole point was that S9 get 3+ to wound against both T7 and T8, while S8 needs 4+ against T8.

 

2:

Standing still is -exactly- how Hellblasters in a DA army are efficient, they are less efficient in a BA army because the DA chapter tactics REWARD standing still. If you move them and loose grim resolve, they become less efficient. They don't have to "work" to get within 15", they want people to get within 15" of THEM. 

 

The enemy gets a vote.  Unless that enemy is deepstriking inceptors next to the hellblasters, he's going to do everything in his power not to voluntarily enter that 15" zone until the hellblasters are dead or nearly dead.  To do otherwise is to put a 'kick me' sign on one's own back. 

 

3: Range.

Most weapons operate under the 24" paradigm, some to 30", some to 18" but nearly all  High S heavy weapons have much greater ranges, but nearly all of them have either limited to 1 shot, or D3 shots no matter the range.

 

Okay, I still don't understand your thinking.  You're saying it's not of any value to blow up the enemy land raider in his deployment zone on turn one instead of blowing it up in the midfield on turn three?  You're wrong in any event.  Autocannons, heavy bolters, cyclone and typhoon missile launchers, and twinlinked lascannons all have multiple shots and more than 30" of range, and there are probably some I've not thought of just in the imperial armory.  And I'm not even considering proper ordnance, like battle cannons and earthshakers.  But that's entirely beside the point, because nobody takes one one-shot weapon on the off chance that it might do something useful.   I field eight lascannons and support them with Azrael and a lieutenant precisely because I do want to be able to reliably kill big nasty things in their starting positions, rather than letting them come across the table at me.  "low volume of fire beyond 24 inches" isn't a thing.

 

If I have no multi-wound targets for your Lascannon, they are costing you roughly 5 points per turn to kill one model at 48", or 1".

 

Better to have and not need than to need and not have.  You can't optimize one list against all possible enemies. 

 

[Vector Strike]

Finally finished the spreadsheet. Just anti-tank for now, but next month will bring anti-infantry and anti-air.

As everyone love spoilers, here they are!

 

Most cost-effective units: 

Tier 1: Plasma Inceptors, Plasmagun Veterans, Rapid Fire Hellblasters 

Tier 2: Plasma Deredeo, Quad Rapier, Plasma Devastators, Assault Hellblasters, Black Knights, LC+PG Razorback, Meltagun Veterans, Plasma Cannon Veteran 

Tier 3: HPC+CML Relic Contemptor, LC/AC/MM/HPC+CML Contemptor-Mortis, Laser Rapier, CMLan/SCA Leviathan, HPC+ML* (Venerable) Dread, MM Devastators, Heavy Hellblasters, MM Land Speeder, Land Speeder Vengeance 

 

Disclaimer: Dark Talon didn't show up as any kind of promising unit, but as we all know reality is different. Anyway, this is for anti-tank, while Dark Talons are known for mowing down infantry. Next month it'll certainly shine in my calculations

* Wrote 'CML' instead of 'ML' in the report. Please consider it as 'ML'.

 

The files are here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/900/745954.page#9985776

Please read the report before messing with the spreadsheet, as important info is there.

 

---

Ah, as anything GW-related, a errata must follow the main product.

- Report, page 1, point 2: Redemptor Dreadnought's underarm Gatling weapon WAS factored in my calculations.

- Report, page 1, point 9: instead of 'damage inflicted', read 'weapon damage'. 'Damage inflicted' is the result of the formulae. PPD is the point cost of the unit divided by the damaged inflicted.

[march10k]

Where's the lascannon devastator?

[Vector Strike]

Are you asking where they are in the spreadsheet? Below the Venerable Dreadnoughts entries.

 

Are you asking how they fare? Firepower-wise, they're almost twice as inefficient as Plasma Devs with overcharge and WotDA. They're better than Las Preds, though.

Of course, they have range advantage. This I didn't factor in my calculations.

 

-----

 

 

I'm adding some more stuff to the spreadsheet and report (some FW stuff and terminators) in my particular file; I'll upload whenever I can. Also, I'm creating the melee spreadsheet as well.