Armageddon or Tallarn?

[TheUbikator]

So I've been toying with a list for my upcoming army and I'm really torn.

 

I've used Tallarn Regimental doctrine with my current army (chimeras, leman russ exterminators with las, and multimeltas). I was quite successful but, I kinda don't want to play the exact same army, just with different paint coat and different Leman Russ variants. So I've started thinking which doctrine suits better my new army thematically and Armageddon was a clear winner (well it's better then Tallarn). I like the strategem, the infantry buff and the order, but vehicle wise the doctrine seems kinda lacking. At least on paper.

 

So I'm asking you guys: does any of you used Armageddon doctrine, with chimeras, leman russ battle tanks etc. How was your experience? Am I better sticking with Tallarn or Armageddon is also viable?  

[Are Verlo]

Truth be told the armageddon doctrine is lackluster with vehicles. I´d much rather be moving without -1 to hit, than treating ap -1 as ap 0. You will get to use the Tallarn doctrine every turn you move, while the Armageddon doctrine only comes into play now and then.

 

Edit: But if you have a 2xHF chimera the armageddon doctrine is strictly better. Same goes for any vehicles that has weapons unaffected by to hit penalites for moving, such as scout sentinels with HF, hellhounds with hf & inferno and so on.

[TheUbikator]

Truth be told the armageddon doctrine is lackluster with vehicles. I´d much rather be moving without -1 to hit, than treating ap -1 as ap 0. You will get to use the Tallarn doctrine every turn you move, while the Armageddon doctrine only comes into play now and then.

 

Edit: But if you have a 2xHF chimera the armageddon doctrine is strictly better. Same goes for any vehicles that has weapons unaffected by to hit penalites for moving, such as scout sentinels with HF, hellhounds with hf & inferno and so on.

I'm planning on using double HB chimeras with storm bolters and track guards. Infantry squads inside with plasma guns, boltguns (on sgt) and vox caster. Regarding Leman Russes, battle cannon, triple HB, track guards and storm bolter.

 

The thing is, I've noticed that many players try to bring down my chimeras with massed str 5 ap -1 fire, and Armageddon would certainly help with that. Also, I think AG strategem seems more useful their order too. I've used Tallarn tank order only when something was out of range of my autocannons or I needed couple inches for that sweet melta bonus.

[Are Verlo]

Well, one can perhaps cripple a chimera with S5 ap-1 weapons, by bringing it down in the battle damage chart. If you look at the ammount of shots required by S5 ap -1 damage 1 needed to destroy a chimera, you will see that S5 ap-1 is really bad at it.

 

There are some decent ap -1 weapons like autocannons and predator cannons that deal multiple damge per failed save. Those are good and as dark eldar bring more competitive builds with light vehicles (Venoms, raiders and ravagers) we might see more of those S7 ap -1 dam 2 or 3 weapons. Even more if the orks bring buggies and wartracks back in favour.

 

Look at the math

S 5 wounds the chimera on a 5+, meaning 1 out of 3 hits will wound. Then the chimera saves half of them (Tallarn doctrine). If the weapon is damage 1, you would need 60 hits from a heavy bolter (or other S5 ap -1 damage 1 weapon) to destroy a chimera (10 wounds).

The armageddon chimera would take even more hits: still 5+ to wound, and the chimera saves 2/3 of those, this means 1 out of 9 hits inflicts and unsaved wound. It will take a massive 90 hits to kill a armageddon chimera with heavy bolters.

 

This shows how futile S5 ap-1 damage 1 is for busting chimeras.

And if your chimera gets hit by a ap -2 (or better) weapon the armageddon doctrine does nothing. 

The tallarn doctrine will come in to play as often as you move and fire those heavy bolters.

 

The regimental orders are mostly weak (some stand out on certain units). Rerolling 1´s or FRFSRF is golden.

 

Note I am not telling you armageddon sucks, learn to play, always take tallarn for mobile vehicles :-)

It is just unfortunate that the armageddon doctrine does little for their iconic chimeras. The build you describe will get a bigger boost by having tallarn doctrine for the vehicles, but armageddon might work as well.

 

I play steel legion and load up on "auto hit" weapons and run my vehicles with armageddon steel legion doctrine.

[TheUbikator]

Well, one can perhaps cripple a chimera with S5 ap-1 weapons, by bringing it down in the battle damage chart. If you look at the ammount of shots required by S5 ap -1 damage 1 needed to destroy a chimera, you will see that S5 ap-1 is really bad at it.

 

There are some decent ap -1 weapons like autocannons and predator cannons that deal multiple damge per failed save. Those are good and as dark eldar bring more competitive builds with light vehicles (Venoms, raiders and ravagers) we might see more of those S7 ap -1 dam 2 or 3 weapons. Even more if the orks bring buggies and wartracks back in favour.

 

Look at the math

S 5 wounds the chimera on a 5+, meaning 1 out of 3 hits will wound. Then the chimera saves half of them (Tallarn doctrine). If the weapon is damage 1, you would need 60 hits from a heavy bolter (or other S5 ap -1 damage 1 weapon) to destroy a chimera (10 wounds).

The armageddon chimera would take even more hits: still 5+ to wound, and the chimera saves 2/3 of those, this means 1 out of 9 hits inflicts and unsaved wound. It will take a massive 90 hits to kill a armageddon chimera with heavy bolters.

 

This shows how futile S5 ap-1 damage 1 is for busting chimeras.

And if your chimera gets hit by a ap -2 (or better) weapon the armageddon doctrine does nothing. 

The tallarn doctrine will come in to play as often as you move and fire those heavy bolters.

 

The regimental orders are mostly weak (some stand out on certain units). Rerolling 1´s or FRFSRF is golden.

 

Note I am not telling you armageddon sucks, learn to play, always take tallarn for mobile vehicles :-)

It is just unfortunate that the armageddon doctrine does little for their iconic chimeras. The build you describe will get a bigger boost by having tallarn doctrine for the vehicles, but armageddon might work as well.

 

I play steel legion and load up on "auto hit" weapons and run my vehicles with armageddon steel legion doctrine.

 

Thank you! Well, it looks like I'm stayin with Tallarn then.

[Mordian Glory]

I just spent 6 months building and play testing a Steel Legion army and I must say they there are really powerful. The ignoring AP-1 is a huge deal and make my vehicles much more difficult, it comes into play every battle that I have played. The real gem of the Steel Legion is the 18" rapid fire for infantry, it is incredibly powerful especially when combined with plasma gunners and bolter sgts.

 

Now I am not saying that Armageddon is better, Tallarn is very good. But the 2 regiments are suited for 2 very different army types. Tallarn is perfect for Armoured Regiments, where you will be using 6+ Leman Russes and your tanks will be doing most of the heavy lifting and infantry is just used as a tax. Armageddon is for Mechanized Infantry, where you tanks provide support but your infantry will still be doing the majority of the work. 

 

This is evident by looking at the  regimental traits orders etc. The main regiment trait for the Armageddon is the 18" rapid fire for infantry, which is really powerful but doesnt help tanks at all. The second part is the Ignore AP-1 for vehicles. You also have the Stratagem "Armoured Fist" which lets you reroll ones to hit with an infantry unit that disembarks that turn. Finally you have the order "Mount Up" which lets you shoot with an infantry unit and then embark in a transport. 3 our 4 of these buffs are focused on infantry. 3 out of 4 buffs help infantry and 1 helps vehicles. 

 

Both regiments are good, but they are not designed to do the same job. 

[ProminusIV]

Personally a really big fan of the Tallarn special rules. Fast and shooty infantry for objective capping/coming into rapid fire range. Mobile vehicles. Everything is on the move and maxed out with heavy bolters and stubbers for that much needed dakka. Haven't played with Tank commanders yet, gonna give it a try soon for that juicy LoS blocking move. 

[Shamansky]

Haven't played with Tank commanders yet, gonna give it a try soon for that juicy LoS blocking move. 

Do not expect much of them. They are usually the primary target. At leats don't take a single TC if you want them do anything else besides soaking enemy fire.

[ProminusIV]

I'm playing one in a 1000p match next sunday, hopefully it'll survive one round of shooting parked out of LoS. Though it is going to eat artillery fire for sure. Wouldn't play one in a 1500+ game i think. As you said, the tank commander will be a primary target.

 

Haven't played with Tank commanders yet, gonna give it a try soon for that juicy LoS blocking move. 

Do not expect much of them. They are usually the primary target. At leats don't take a single TC if you want them do anything else besides soaking enemy fire.

 

[Doof]

 

I'm playing one in a 1000p match next sunday, hopefully it'll survive one round of shooting parked out of LoS. Though it is going to eat artillery fire for sure. Wouldn't play one in a 1500+ game i think. As you said, the tank commander will be a primary target.

 

Haven't played with Tank commanders yet, gonna give it a try soon for that juicy LoS blocking move. 

Do not expect much of them. They are usually the primary target. At leats don't take a single TC if you want them do anything else besides soaking enemy fire.

 

 

 If you play as Tallarn, you simply put either a squadron of tanks or a single TC into ambush reserve for 3 CP. That way if you go second you bring them in  on your board edge / deployment zone or even hold off till turn 2 and put them in their deployment zone. Only downside is they count as having moved their full amount, so you get no Grinding Advance extra shot on the main weapon. I think its a good trade off for getting to actually use your tank before it dies.