Legion vessels carrying capacity

[Elzender]

So, I am writing a bit of fluff for my Imperial Fists Company, which fights in the Battle of Phall as its first major engagement in the Heresy, and I intend them to be in command of a vessel. Would a frigate/heavy frigate be an adequate ship to carry and deploy a Legion Company (100-150 marines), or would it be better to have them command a cruiser? I have the feeling a cruiser would be too big for just a single company.

[Supe robot gangster #1]

Bear in mind in 40k a marine strike cruiser can carry a company plus support, so I don’t think it’d be unfeasable for them to command a cruiser. I think a frigate/heavy frigate might be too small for a company. It would also lack the space for enough landers to deploy a company of marines (or rather lack the facilities for such operations). Unless of course your company specialises in void/boarding actions. It could be possible for them to operate out of a frigate if that was their intended function.

[carlisimo]

Scars features a brotherhood of 500 taking off from a frigate in void-bikes. You can argue that Black Library has been a little inconsistent with its ships, not to mention it’s a very different legion, but hey, you can always say they did it first. (The White Scars use “brotherhood” to mean “company”, but that looks like battalion size to me.)

 

That novel also suggests that the equivalent of division commanders (in Hasik’s case, a horde comprising 20 brotherhoods) get to have a cruiser. That might’ve been referring to heavy cruisers or battlecruisers, and not light/strike cruisers. It isn’t clear.

 

The Eisenstein was a frigate, too. Did Garro have a company aboard? I think so but my memory’s a little fuzzy there.

[Supe robot gangster #1]

Scars features a brotherhood of 500 taking off from a frigate in void-bikes. You can argue that Black Library has been a little inconsistent with its ships, not to mention it’s a very different legion, but hey, you can always say they did it first. (The White Scars use “brotherhood” to mean “company”, but that looks like battalion size to me.)

 

That novel also suggests that the equivalent of division commanders (in Hasik’s case, a horde comprising 20 brotherhoods) get to have a cruiser. That might’ve been referring to heavy cruisers or battlecruisers, and not light/strike cruisers. It isn’t clear.

 

The Eisenstein was a frigate, too. Did Garro have a company aboard? I think so but my memory’s a little fuzzy there.

I guess a ships classification can be somewhat ambiguous as well. Not everything would be categorised the same in the 30th millennium compared to the 41st. What one world might classify as a frigate may be capital vessel size on another. And yeah according to the principal bellicosa the nominal size of a battalion is roughly 500 marines, but by the end of the crusade not many legions followed it ( ultras for example had 1000 strong companies). As for garro, it’s been a while since I read Eisenstein but memory seems to tell me he only had a handful of marines with him, but that’s not to say they hadn’t already deployed ground forces from the ship.

 

So I don’t really see an issue with your dudes being in command of a frigate, go nuts!

[Hesh Kadesh]

I always felt that the deployment of 100 Marines from a single Strike Cruiser to be consistent bull:cuss. This is a vessel around 2km long, able to launch Thunderhawks.

 

Let's look at the Ultramarines 2nd Company from 8E Adeptus Astartes; Space Marines.

 

A 9 man Command Section,

4 10 Man Tactical Squads,

2 10 Man Assault Squads,

1 10 Man Devastator Squad,

3 5 Man Primaris Intercessors, 

1 3 Man Primaris Inceptor Squad,

1 5 Man Primaris Hellblaster Squad, and

2 Dreadnoughts.

 

2 Thunderhawks provides capacity for 30 Primaris Marines (Gravis count as doubles), and 2 Dreadnoughts (at least, it used to). 2 Thunderhawk Transporters provides capacity for a further 40 PA Astartes in Rhinos and 30 on their own. If each Transporter carries the Assault Marines, that leaves capacity for the Command Squad in one, and the Captain/Command Section in another. That only leaves a single Tac Squad to be transported by other means, such as a Storm Eagle. Between 5 vehicles, an entire company can be delivered.

 

Now, consider the fact that a single Wasp class Amphibious ship around 1/6th of its size has the ability to put nearly 2000 US Marines onto terra firma (a possibility of around 1000 in a single wave), and you begin to see that the numbers provided are absolute nonsense. It needs a crew of 1200 to run (probably excluding flight crew etc, that's another ~400).

 

If a strike cruiser only has the capacity to launch 5 Thunderhawks, they are woefully underpowered.

 

Now, if we take the idea that an Astartes vessel obviously has a much larger crew due to its size and complexity (although, possibly, a smaller crew than an Imperial Navy vessel for its size), I'd posit that a Battlebarge would be akin to sending an entire Chapter (1000 Marines, plus support materiel) into battle, while a Strike Cruiser would be more akin to a 3rd of that. It is that later in the 40k verse, the limitations on the delivery of an Chapter is limited more to the vessels in which it can deploy on to the surface (5 Thunderhawks is a rather significant deployment for a Chapter in 40k, which may take hundreds of years to replace), and how they traditionally operate; if 3 companies are being deployed, then it's probably better to have them split over several vessels to reduce the cost if one vessel is lost, which given that the legions no longer operate in massive fleets, Astartes Cruisers or Capital ships are going to be recieving a lot more firepower; whereas in Legion fleets, there may be cruiser class vessels who lack significant marine complements, instead having small boarding/counter boarding parties, using these to act as Picket or Screen ships while the larger Grand Cruisers or Battleships move into position.

[Zuvassin]

There's also light cruisers if you didn't want to go full cruiser. Also keep in mind some escorts, like Nova Frigates, can't deploy troops at all.

[bluntblade]

Might depend on how heavily the ship is manned apart from the Astartes. I figure that, for example, a Wolves ship is going to be crammed with Kaerls as well, while a Scars one isn't likely to be stuff with armed thralls.

[Grifftofer]

I believe that the strike cruiser reference is actually that the have the capability to simultaneously deploy a full company of space marines (I may be in error with regards to that though). As otherwise I agree that having only 100 odd marines on a multi-kilometer long space ship seems woefully inadequate.

 

Then again GW has always had a, shall we say, 'interesting' relationship with hard figures of all kinds, so who knows :P

[bluntblade]

And BL's ability to portray scale is often questionable. Witness how Flight of the Eisenstein fails to distinguish what are effectively its Lord Commanders from line captains.

[Marshal Rohr]

So, I am writing a bit of fluff for my Imperial Fists Company, which fights in the Battle of Phall as its first major engagement in the Heresy, and I intend them to be in command of a vessel. Would a frigate/heavy frigate be an adequate ship to carry and deploy a Legion Company (100-150 marines), or would it be better to have them command a cruiser? I have the feeling a cruiser would be too big for just a single company.

A frigate is meant to be a fighting ship, more than a deployment craft. A cruiser would make more sense.

[Elzender]

Thanks for the responses, guys! I've been searching some info, both in the forum and the background material that I have at hand, and I haven0t found much more than what has been said here.

 

Marshal Rohr, when you mention "deployment", would you take into account boarding actions, or just purely deployment to ground operations such as orbital assault through drop pods or thunderhawks/stormbirds?

 

I had an idea to try to justify having a full company in a frigate: groups of 2-3 frigates that act in a coordinated fashion to perform attack runs and boarding actions, all of them carrying troops so that losing one of the ships does not completely cripple the group's boarding capabilities. Moreover, having multiple small vessels against a single target is probably more effective, as the enemy vessel won't be able to focus on a single ship. Would that make any sense to you guys?

 

By the way, do you guys know of any HH novel featuring good or prominent naval battles? I still have to read The Crimson Fist (I know, shame on me), but I don't know of many others. I stopped reading the HH series a long time ago, although I've read summaries and spoilers from a few books out of many threads here in the B&C so I'm kinda up to date with the general setting.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Marshal Rohr is quite correct A frigate is a void warfare vessel. It might carry a small retinue of Astartes to defend against boarding actions, but that is all. Reference the audio drama Grey Talon for this detail. In Flight of the Eisenstein Battle Captain Garro and his seventy or so fellow loyalist Death Guard commandeer the frigate Eisenstein which has no Astartes retinue of it's own.

 

Unfortunately any details about carry capacity and such must be gleaned rather sparingly from the HH literature. The 40K verse reference materials is of little help as we are dealing with different ships and different force structures than the crusade and heresy era.

 

Stationing and Deployment of Astartes in numbers for offensive operations (all types) would be done from capital ships such as battleships and cruisers in the 30K era.

[Marshal Rohr]

The most consistent representations in black library have strike cruisers being able to deploy a company of marines and support via drop pod and aircraft, whereas frigates seem to only have minimal aircraft hanger facilities.

 

More importantly, if you’re looking for your company to specialize in void warfare, then you can just purpose build something to your specifications. A frigate sized carrier filled with assault rams and dread claws. I thought you were just speaking generally. Also, since it’s the Heresy, don’t be afraid to make your forces battalion or chapter sized. Just because your focusing on 150 legionaries doesn’t mean they can’t be part of a larger 1000 if that makes sense. Maybe these guys are the ‘assault claw’ wave of a dedicated boarding battalion or something.

[Elzender]

The most consistent representations in black library have strike cruisers being able to deploy a company of marines and support via drop pod and aircraft, whereas frigates seem to only have minimal aircraft hanger facilities.

 

More importantly, if you’re looking for your company to specialize in void warfare, then you can just purpose build something to your specifications. A frigate sized carrier filled with assault rams and dread claws. I thought you were just speaking generally. Also, since it’s the Heresy, don’t be afraid to make your forces battalion or chapter sized. Just because your focusing on 150 legionaries doesn’t mean they can’t be part of a larger 1000 if that makes sense. Maybe these guys are the ‘assault claw’ wave of a dedicated boarding battalion or something.

 

Thanks again, Marshal. I did ask for general information to have a background to use as a reference, to avoid making outlandish assumptions or excessive headcanon. I will think a bit more about it, but I will probably stick to a modified carrier frigate and the 3-vessel attack group idea, hopefully it is not too much of a fluff crime. I'm not completely sold on the cruiser idea, since I do not intend the vessel to have much more relevance out of this first "chapter", so to speak; a smaller vessel will probably allow me to avoid getting into much detail about the ship's management. Regarding the troops, the idea is to have it carrying just the astartes as garrison and combat force, the humans being limited to the crew.

 

I'm not planning on making the company especially oriented towards void combat, rather a "battle line" company, as it will make it easier to justify adding all kind of units to my actual army. I will stick to a single, autonomous company regarding the main story arch, in order to justify it being sent to certain missions on its own. However, I do show that the company is integrated in a chapter in regards to the command structure, and I will probably expand a bit more on it to justify the 3-vessel modus operandi (most of it is written in Spanish at the moment, but once I refine it I will translate it and post it in my thread here in the AoD).

[Marshal Rohr]

In Book 3 it mentions a group of three frigates or destroyers (can’t remember which at the moment) called the three sisters of spite, which I always found really cool. If you were looking for a cool squadron name, too.

[Monkeychunks]

I have been keeping numbers about this sort of thing to flesh out my own Legion and can shed a little light on this. All of these numbers are drawn from Deliverance Lost, the Corax anthology, and Book 3: Extermination. Obviously it is specific to the Raven Guard, who are hardly an orthodox Legion, and also subject to author bias. But it may provide some value.

 

• 3000 Marines are extracted from Isstvan aboard a Barge and 2 Cruisers. It is noted that all vessels are well in excess of their designed capacity.
• As of Yarant, the full Legion consists of 25 vessels and, assuming that replacements roughly equal losses, ~4000 Marines. This then puts an average capacity of 160 Marines per ship.
• Ravenlord specifically mentions Cruisers carrying 200 Marines.
• In Weregeld, a force of 1148 recruits is delivered upon 3 Battle Barges.

From these numbers, I would suggest Barges having a capacity of 500 (For a full Battalion), Cruisers of 200 and Light Cruisers of 100, with Escorts not carrying Marines as standard. These would also have a full complement of armour and aircraft onboard. Gloriana-class ships would carry entire Chapters at the least.

 

It is notable that the Raven Guard fleet did much better than the ground forces at Isstvan, and as such you would expect the Fleet to be proportionally very generous in terms of space. This allows the Raven Guard to function as a fleet-based Legion during the Heresy. It is likely that other Legions would have the numbers to pad out their Fleet more fully.

 

Off the top of my head, I think Imperial Fists are also referenced as having the greatest fleet of any Legion. I can't find the reference but I believe it is ~1500 ships for a legion of 100,000 Marines. This is considered well above the average.

[Elzender]

In Book 3 it mentions a group of three frigates or destroyers (can’t remember which at the moment) called the three sisters of spite, which I always found really cool. If you were looking for a cool squadron name, too.

 

It says they are Thunderbolt class heavy frigates, but it seems they are mainly gunboats.

 

Wow, Monkeychunks, that's a lot of useful info, thanks! It seems in the end I'll have to stick to a cruiser or a big light cruiser (yeah, that is a thing now). I'll let you know when I cook something more definite. Thanks to all of you guys, lots of info here, and hopefully it will be useful to more frater!

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

In Book 3 it mentions a group of three frigates or destroyers (can’t remember which at the moment) called the three sisters of spite, which I always found really cool. If you were looking for a cool squadron name, too.

It says they are Thunderbolt class heavy frigates, but it seems they are mainly gunboats.

 

Wow, Monkeychunks, that's a lot of useful info, thanks! It seems in the end I'll have to stick to a cruiser or a big light cruiser (yeah, that is a thing now). I'll let you know when I cook something more definite. Thanks to all of you guys, lots of info here, and hopefully it will be useful to more frater!

Dude, good catch! I didn’t even pick the Thunderbolt part up the first time. That’s an awesome throwback.

[Zuvassin]

From what I recall from when Battlefleet Gothic first came out, BattleBarges are designed to support about a third of a standard 40k Chapter, so 3-4 Companies. A strike cruiser is really meant for a single company.

 

In regards to why such large ships have such relatively small capacity:

 

-Marine ships are meant to be capable of unsupported operations, so a full panoply of vehicles (flyers, tanks, etc) would be carried along with an armory capable of repair and logistics support

 

-similarly, the ship itself will require space dedicated to its own maintenance and logistics to enable long term / long range operations

 

-Marine fluff typically shows each Marine requires a couple servitors to maintain and assemble their armour, so you can likely double or triple the crew size - the more Marines, the exponentially bigger the support staff

 

-the Imperium isn’t efficient - these are recovered and repurposed designs used in a decaying empire, and it's likely there’s sections even on Marine craft that aren’t used or are underused (even if not to the extreme of entire lost decks as in Imperial Navy and Chaos ships)

 

-built in contingency - if your ship is built for 100 and you already have 300 Marines on it (plus material and support), where are you putting those Chapter X Marines / IG Command / other Imperial forces you rescued / were assigned to escort?