Petitioner's City Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 Do remember, it was only with Betrayer that we had a Horus Heresy book by Forge World published. That's pretty much most early major stories you're probably thinking of. So many books before without any concrete influence possible or need to conform to Alan's (or Laurie's?) leads. It's unfair therefore to judge these books for not incorporating 4/5/6 years later changes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Lunkhead Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 Well said Brothers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted May 24, 2018 Author Share Posted May 24, 2018 Do remember, it was only with Betrayer that we had a Horus Heresy book by Forge World published. That's pretty much most early major stories you're probably thinking of. So many books before without any concrete influence possible or need to conform to Alan's (or Laurie's?) leads. It's unfair therefore to judge these books for not incorporating 4/5/6 years later changes. That is true, and I did admit in the first post that I know it's a tad unfair. So I tried to stick to early material for comparisons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 I do agree with Xisor, really. It's not so much that the Legions didn't get the right scale, as the Legions at that time were smaller-scale. It's that Garro felt like he was an equivalent of Saul Tarvitz, just a line-captain, rather than one of the most influential officers in the Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 @Lord_Caerolian "The Primarch heights tended to massively jump around as well, from having Horus kneeling and having Marines still only coming up to around waist/chest height" Yeah...I like that they've toned it down Russ is now described as a head taller than a big marine (Gunn). That seems much less comically gigantic to me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Lunkhead Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 I do agree with Xisor, really. It's not so much that the Legions didn't get the right scale, as the Legions at that time were smaller-scale. It's that Garro felt like he was an equivalent of Saul Tarvitz, just a line-captain, rather than one of the most influential officers in the Legion. Garviel Loken was just a line captain and he was one of the most influential officers in his Legion.... he was also modest.... Like Garro. In addition the DG was changing in a way that did not embrace Garro's ideals. And while Mortarion liked and respected Garro he was fully prepared to sanction him with extreme prejudice. Garro's influence was waning and he knew it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 I do agree with Xisor, really. It's not so much that the Legions didn't get the right scale, as the Legions at that time were smaller-scale. It's that Garro felt like he was an equivalent of Saul Tarvitz, just a line-captain, rather than one of the most influential officers in the Legion. Garviel Loken was just a line captain and he was one of the most influential officers in his Legion.... he was also modest.... Like Garro. In addition the DG was changing in a way that did not embrace Garro's ideals. And while Mortarion liked and respected Garro he was fully prepared to sanction him with extreme prejudice. Garro's influence was waning and he knew it. Loken ascends from the line with his accession to the Mournival. Hence Abaddon offering him the Justaerin, and Loken explicitly chooses to only take the Tenth Company for his surgical strike on the mountains. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 I was meaning in the terms of who knew about him. He doesn't seem to have much of a reputation outside of his Legion, which is weird for a Marine of his status, a Commander of one of the more favoured organisations within the Death Guard, the 7th. The book portrays Garro as commanding almost only a few squads, at least from what's shown, and admittedly my own faulty memory. To be fair though, this could also be attributed to the fact that the Isstvan deployments were almost micromanaged by the assorted Primarchs, so Garro wouldn't have been as involved as he usually was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 You'd think he'd think about the hundreds under his command though. Admittedly this was also an issue in Galaxy in Flames Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Jeez, what’s next? Someone saying there are issues with Fulgrim? I kid, I kid. As a fan of Nemesis, Outcast Dead, and Vengeful Spirit, I hear your points, brother. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Lunkhead Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 At the time of his assignment to the Eisenstien with a retinue of approximately 70 of his men, Garro was still recovering from his battle injuries. Once he had knowledge of the betrayal, Garro had bigger problems to worry about beyond the fate of his company. That may sound cold, but that's war. He had his priorities straight. I'm sure the original manuscript described more and much was edited out. Garro was the commander of a Grand Company. That title alone infers status and history.... how much really needs to be spelled out to the reader? It seems to me most of what people are complaining about has little or nothing to do with the core story, just quibbling details. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 But to not think about them at all? That seems off to me. Garro hopes that Tarvitz and a certain World Eater survive the virus bombing, but nothing is said about the men he's spent decades leading. It's a lot of somewhat off details that accumulate to make the book really frustrating for me. Not so much stuff that needs spelling out as stuff that we are told to just assume is there, somewhere, when a character's thoughts or behaviour don't reflect it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 .. how much really needs to be spelled out to the reader? It seems to me most of what people are complaining about has little or nothing to do with the core story, just quibbling details. That's literally what's being said. That it's missing details, but the story itself is fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5090916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 my gripe is definitely with the stories and the characters, but i’m also happy to be in the minority. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5091383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted May 26, 2018 Author Share Posted May 26, 2018 The villains are quite underwhelming for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5091530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 At the time of his assignment to the Eisenstien with a retinue of approximately 70 of his men, Garro was still recovering from his battle injuries. Once he had knowledge of the betrayal, Garro had bigger problems to worry about beyond the fate of his company. That may sound cold, but that's war. He had his priorities straight. I'm sure the original manuscript described more and much was edited out. Garro was the commander of a Grand Company. That title alone infers status and history.... how much really needs to be spelled out to the reader? It seems to me most of what people are complaining about has little or nothing to do with the core story, just quibbling details. I feel like your quote actually does demonstrate a narrative shortcoming. By book 4, the setting is hardly older than Garro’s identity as a character. As you point out, his title should indeed ‘spell out’ status and history...yet he is more or less unknown to Mortarion... I don’t see any problem whatsoever with saying ‘hey, he was kind of underwritten with regards to the fact that as a senior commander, he had a very unremarkable connection with his men.’ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5091749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted May 27, 2018 Author Share Posted May 27, 2018 It should be possible to infer lots of things efficiently, simply through little bits of dialogue ("noodle incidents" for example) or characters' behaviour Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5091770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Lunkhead Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Been away for a few days and just now catching up with posts..... At the time of his assignment to the Eisenstien with a retinue of approximately 70 of his men, Garro was still recovering from his battle injuries. Once he had knowledge of the betrayal, Garro had bigger problems to worry about beyond the fate of his company. That may sound cold, but that's war. He had his priorities straight.I'm sure the original manuscript described more and much was edited out. Garro was the commander of a Grand Company. That title alone infers status and history.... how much really needs to be spelled out to the reader? It seems to me most of what people are complaining about has little or nothing to do with the core story, just quibbling details. I feel like your quote actually does demonstrate a narrative shortcoming. By book 4, the setting is hardly older than Garro’s identity as a character. As you point out, his title should indeed ‘spell out’ status and history...yet he is more or less unknown to Mortarion...I don’t see any problem whatsoever with saying ‘hey, he was kind of underwritten with regards to the fact that as a senior commander, he had a very unremarkable connection with his men.’ But Garro is not unknown to Mortarion as demonstrated by the sharing of his cup, which is a high honor with great significance (once again a lot is inferred by this one scene). We see that Mortarion respects Garro and is attempting to feel him out for future potential. Does this mean that Mortarion does not know him well? Yes, I think so. But I got the impression from the book that Mortarion was not close to any of his men, not even his First Captain, Typhon (this of coarse will come back to bite him). The Death Guard are not the Sons of Horus. Mortarion has no equivalent to the Mournival, or any close advisors. As for your point about Garro having a unremarkable connection to his men..... From my reading of FoE, I got the impression that Garro was very much alone. As I said earlier, his legion was changing. Personal ambitions were growing and lack of humanity among the DG was evident. All of this was happening before the Heresy. But to not think about them at all? That seems off to me. Garro hopes that Tarvitz and a certain World Eater survive the virus bombing, but nothing is said about the men he's spent decades leading.It's a lot of somewhat off details that accumulate to make the book really frustrating for me. Not so much stuff that needs spelling out as stuff that we are told to just assume is there, somewhere, when a character's thoughts or behaviour don't reflect it. In a crisis of this magnitude that's about all the sentiment Garro has time for. In battle, these feelings have to be compartmentalized to be dealt with at a latter date. Let those emotions get hold of you at all in the midst of a crisis and you're screwed. In addition, these are Astartes we're dealing with.... they have a different mindset altogether. The villains are quite underwhelming for me. Mortarion and Typhon set the tone of the threat, and Grulgor..... well, Ignatius Grulgor was a ambitious thug. On the Eisenstein he became a zombified ambitious thug..... he was an impediment. Garro's main adversaries were the Heresy and the Warp. These were not underwhelming villains. Brother bluntblade, just so you know, I'm quoting you because you so clearly express the points of this topic, not because I think you're wrong or I think I'm right. I reread FoE after reading initial posts to this topic. My impressions have not changed from when I first read it. To me, it was a most pleasant read that left me very satisfied. Every comment I've made here is based on what I got out of those readings. "Let he who has eyes to see, see and let he who has ears to hear, hear." Peace Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5091952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted May 27, 2018 Author Share Posted May 27, 2018 Well, art is never objectively good or bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5091967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattTheDespoiler Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 This is sligtly off topic but does tie in with the general theme of the thread. Is it confirmed, anywhere at all, that Garro is deployed to Isstvan 5? My understanding was he 'fled' Isstvan 3 on the Eisenstein only to return as a Knight Errant later on to recover Loken. However, in 'Garro,' when he confronts the traitorous elements of the White Scars, reference is made to him being at Isstvan 5. Is this poor intelligence on the Scars part, or poor writing by JS? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347543-my-gripes-with-flight-of-the-eisenstein/page/2/#findComment-5102268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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