My gripes with Flight of the Eisenstein

[Petitioner's City]

Do remember, it was only with Betrayer that we had a Horus Heresy book by Forge World published. That's pretty much most early major stories you're probably thinking of. So many books before without any concrete influence possible or need to conform to Alan's (or Laurie's?) leads. It's unfair therefore to judge these books for not incorporating 4/5/6 years later changes.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Well said Brothers

[bluntblade]

Do remember, it was only with Betrayer that we had a Horus Heresy book by Forge World published. That's pretty much most early major stories you're probably thinking of. So many books before without any concrete influence possible or need to conform to Alan's (or Laurie's?) leads. It's unfair therefore to judge these books for not incorporating 4/5/6 years later changes.

That is true, and I did admit in the first post that I know it's a tad unfair. So I tried to stick to early material for comparisons.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I do agree with Xisor, really. It's not so much that the Legions didn't get the right scale, as the Legions at that time were smaller-scale. It's that Garro felt like he was an equivalent of Saul Tarvitz, just a line-captain, rather than one of the most influential officers in the Legion.

[b1soul]

@Lord_Caerolian

 

"The Primarch heights tended to massively jump around as well, from having Horus kneeling and having Marines still only coming up to around waist/chest height"

 

Yeah...I like that they've toned it down

 

Russ is now described as a head taller than a big marine (Gunn). That seems much less comically gigantic to me

[Brother Lunkhead]

I do agree with Xisor, really. It's not so much that the Legions didn't get the right scale, as the Legions at that time were smaller-scale. It's that Garro felt like he was an equivalent of Saul Tarvitz, just a line-captain, rather than one of the most influential officers in the Legion.

 

Garviel Loken was just a line captain and he was one of the most influential officers in his Legion.... he was also modest.... Like Garro. In addition the DG was changing in a way that did not embrace Garro's ideals. And while Mortarion liked and respected Garro he was fully prepared to sanction him with extreme prejudice. Garro's influence was waning and he knew it.

[bluntblade]

 

 

I do agree with Xisor, really. It's not so much that the Legions didn't get the right scale, as the Legions at that time were smaller-scale. It's that Garro felt like he was an equivalent of Saul Tarvitz, just a line-captain, rather than one of the most influential officers in the Legion.

Garviel Loken was just a line captain and he was one of the most influential officers in his Legion.... he was also modest.... Like Garro. In addition the DG was changing in a way that did not embrace Garro's ideals. And while Mortarion liked and respected Garro he was fully prepared to sanction him with extreme prejudice. Garro's influence was waning and he knew it.

Loken ascends from the line with his accession to the Mournival. Hence Abaddon offering him the Justaerin, and Loken explicitly chooses to only take the Tenth Company for his surgical strike on the mountains.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I was meaning in the terms of who knew about him. He doesn't seem to have much of a reputation outside of his Legion, which is weird for a Marine of his status, a Commander of one of the more favoured organisations within the Death Guard, the 7th. The book portrays Garro as commanding almost only a few squads, at least from what's shown, and admittedly my own faulty memory.

 

To be fair though, this could also be attributed to the fact that the Isstvan deployments were almost micromanaged by the assorted Primarchs, so Garro wouldn't have been as involved as he usually was.

[bluntblade]

You'd think he'd think about the hundreds under his command though. Admittedly this was also an issue in Galaxy in Flames

[karden00]

Jeez, what’s next?

Someone saying there are issues with Fulgrim?

 

 

I kid, I kid. As a fan of Nemesis, Outcast Dead, and Vengeful Spirit, I hear your points, brother.

[Brother Lunkhead]

At the time of his assignment to the Eisenstien with a retinue of approximately 70 of his men, Garro was still recovering from his battle injuries. Once he had knowledge of the betrayal, Garro had bigger problems to worry about beyond the fate of his company. That may sound cold, but that's war. He had his priorities straight. 

 

I'm sure the original manuscript described more and much was edited out. Garro was the commander of a Grand Company. That title alone infers status and history.... how much really needs to be spelled out to the reader? It seems to me most of what people are complaining about has little or nothing to do with the core story, just quibbling details.

[bluntblade]

But to not think about them at all? That seems off to me. Garro hopes that Tarvitz and a certain World Eater survive the virus bombing, but nothing is said about the men he's spent decades leading.

 

It's a lot of somewhat off details that accumulate to make the book really frustrating for me. Not so much stuff that needs spelling out as stuff that we are told to just assume is there, somewhere, when a character's thoughts or behaviour don't reflect it.

[Xisor]

.. how much really needs to be spelled out to the reader? It seems to me most of what people are complaining about has little or nothing to do with the core story, just quibbling details.

That's literally what's being said. That it's missing details, but the story itself is fine.

[mc warhammer]

my gripe is definitely with the stories and the characters, but i’m also happy to be in the minority.

[bluntblade]

The villains are quite underwhelming for me.

[karden00]

At the time of his assignment to the Eisenstien with a retinue of approximately 70 of his men, Garro was still recovering from his battle injuries. Once he had knowledge of the betrayal, Garro had bigger problems to worry about beyond the fate of his company. That may sound cold, but that's war. He had his priorities straight.

 

I'm sure the original manuscript described more and much was edited out. Garro was the commander of a Grand Company. That title alone infers status and history.... how much really needs to be spelled out to the reader? It seems to me most of what people are complaining about has little or nothing to do with the core story, just quibbling details.

I feel like your quote actually does demonstrate a narrative shortcoming. By book 4, the setting is hardly older than Garro’s identity as a character. As you point out, his title should indeed ‘spell out’ status and history...yet he is more or less unknown to Mortarion...

I don’t see any problem whatsoever with saying ‘hey, he was kind of underwritten with regards to the fact that as a senior commander, he had a very unremarkable connection with his men.’

[bluntblade]

It should be possible to infer lots of things efficiently, simply through little bits of dialogue ("noodle incidents" for example) or characters' behaviour

[Brother Lunkhead]

Been away for a few days and just now catching up with posts.....

 

 

 

At the time of his assignment to the Eisenstien with a retinue of approximately 70 of his men, Garro was still recovering from his battle injuries. Once he had knowledge of the betrayal, Garro had bigger problems to worry about beyond the fate of his company. That may sound cold, but that's war. He had his priorities straight.

I'm sure the original manuscript described more and much was edited out. Garro was the commander of a Grand Company. That title alone infers status and history.... how much really needs to be spelled out to the reader? It seems to me most of what people are complaining about has little or nothing to do with the core story, just quibbling details.

I feel like your quote actually does demonstrate a narrative shortcoming. By book 4, the setting is hardly older than Garro’s identity as a character. As you point out, his title should indeed ‘spell out’ status and history...yet he is more or less unknown to Mortarion...
I don’t see any problem whatsoever with saying ‘hey, he was kind of underwritten with regards to the fact that as a senior commander, he had a very unremarkable connection with his men.’

 

 

But Garro is not unknown to Mortarion as demonstrated by the sharing of his cup, which is a high honor with great significance (once again a lot is inferred by this one scene). We see that Mortarion respects Garro and is attempting to feel him out for future potential. Does this mean that Mortarion does not know him well? Yes, I think so. But I got the impression from the book that Mortarion was not close to any of his men, not even his First Captain, Typhon (this of coarse will come back to bite him). The Death Guard are not the Sons of Horus. Mortarion has no equivalent to the Mournival, or any close advisors.

 

As for your point about Garro having a unremarkable connection to his men..... From my reading of FoE, I got the impression that Garro was very much alone. As I said earlier, his legion was changing. Personal ambitions were growing and lack of humanity among the DG was evident. All of this was happening before the Heresy.

 

 

But to not think about them at all? That seems off to me. Garro hopes that Tarvitz and a certain World Eater survive the virus bombing, but nothing is said about the men he's spent decades leading.

It's a lot of somewhat off details that accumulate to make the book really frustrating for me. Not so much stuff that needs spelling out as stuff that we are told to just assume is there, somewhere, when a character's thoughts or behaviour don't reflect it.

 

In a crisis of this magnitude that's about all the sentiment Garro has time for. In battle, these feelings have to be compartmentalized to be dealt with at a latter date. Let those emotions get hold of you at all in the midst of a crisis and you're screwed. In addition, these are Astartes we're dealing with.... they have a different mindset altogether.

 

 

The villains are quite underwhelming for me.

 

Mortarion and Typhon set the tone of the threat, and Grulgor..... well, Ignatius Grulgor was a ambitious thug. On the Eisenstein he became a zombified ambitious thug..... he was an impediment. Garro's main adversaries were the Heresy and the Warp. These were not underwhelming villains.

 

Brother bluntblade, just so you know, I'm quoting you because you so clearly express the points of this topic, not because I think you're wrong or I think I'm right. I reread FoE after reading initial posts to this topic. My impressions have not changed from when I first read  it. To me, it was a most pleasant read that left me very satisfied. Every comment I've made here is based on what I got out of those readings. "Let he who has eyes to see, see and let he who has ears to hear, hear."

 

Peace

[bluntblade]

Well, art is never objectively good or bad.

[MattTheDespoiler]

This is sligtly off topic but does tie in with the general theme of the thread.

 

Is it confirmed, anywhere at all, that Garro is deployed to Isstvan 5?

My understanding was he 'fled' Isstvan 3 on the Eisenstein only to return as a Knight Errant later on to recover Loken.

 

However, in 'Garro,' when he confronts the traitorous elements of the White Scars, reference is made to him being at Isstvan 5. Is this poor intelligence on the Scars part, or poor writing by JS?