Which traitor Primarchs do you dislike the most and why

[bluntblade]

Re: Lorgar, his take on Monarchia is very one-sided. The Emperor (who's busy building an empire anyway) had thought he'd grow out of his religiosity as time went on and he spent time within the aetheistic Imperium. Lorgar himself had incredible powers of persuasion a d worked those upon his Legion who were already, to an extent, fanatics of another stripe.

[Indefragable]

Again, it is tough to choose. I guess Perturabo? Maybe a little unfair, since I haven't really read much of him in the Horus Heresy series, but he seems like the primarch who loves his legion the least. For most of the other traitor primarchs, I can think of a fair few examples of them actually acting like fathers to their sons and showing that other, human side to their characters. Perturabo though just seems cold, like his sons are a burden to him, instead of a blessing. I don't really care much for that.

 

Does Curze act like a father to his sons?

 

 

Magnus and Lorgar both suffered most from the change to 'Imperial Truth, no psykers allowed' that occurred with the HH series. Lorgar's entire arc, so heavily based in religiosity, just feels out of place now. How did the Emperor not notice Colchis was a shrine world? How did Lorgar convince an entire Legion of Iconoclast Firemen (Fahrenheit style) to completely 180 flip their core beliefs (genetic loyalty is a bad answer imo, especially if we embrace FW's 'all Legions had loyalists and traitor spiel')? The old fluff, that it was excessive faith at the expense of progress which provoked rebuke makes much more sense than nobody noticed an entire Marine Legion was proselytising religion in a militantly atheist empire. Plus his character of 'need something to worship' does very little for me, and it's all his fault .

 

The one that stick in my craw most because of presentation is Fulgrim, and the EC as a whole. Firstly the change in his reasons for turning from 'Horus is just that good as a speaker and manipulator' to 'this sword is talking to me? I don't see any problems here!' is easily a top 5 worst thing the HH series has done. Then there's just the way the 'narrative voice' for the EC never matches the 'personal perspective'. IA and Betrayal go out of their way to talk about the Legion never being satisfied, that however well they do, it never seems to measure up, and past triumphs never seem to matter, they have to be chasing the next success, which is a mindset I have some major sympathy with. Yet pretty much all the EC we meet are just egotistical s. There's none of the fragility of psyche or drive to succeed that I get from the 'top down' views, just arrogance and entitlement. And this even before they fall to Slaanesh.

 

I think Lorgar's religiosity was tolerated in kinda sorta maybe almost the way the VI's boozin' and brawlin' was: an eccentricity that helps them get the job done. But Lorgar + friends started spending more time on those proclivities and less on getting the job done. From a certain perspective, I can see the Emperor/Malcador sending another Legion (the Thousand Sons, perhaps?) to Fenris to nuke their giant meadhall if they had been spending too much time and effort there instead of actually campaigning. Or if the Salamanders spent all of their time in the forges to the exclusion of actually going out and conquering/re-conquering worlds. Bit of a stretch, but that's kind of how I process it.

 

I'm totally with you about the EC/Fulgrim. For what it's worth, I think Fulgrim: The Palantine Phoenix and The Path of Heaven do excellent jobs of providing depth and substance to the "perfection" angle.

 

Fulgrim Primarchs novel spoilers:

The best (IMHO) of the Primarchs novels so far, this does a great job showing how the EC start off way behind due to geneseed malfunctions, and so Fulgrim's only hope of ever equaling his brothers is to do more with less. So the EC start learning how to do one-handed pushups, be ambidextrous, and play two seperate keyboards at the same time, so to speak. Suffice to say it's a great read that will change your perspective on why the EC are that way. But of course, once you start to get really good...it's starts to go to your head...and therein is the Greek tragedy angle to it. They are almost a victim of their own success.

 

The Path of Heaven spoiler:

I forget the character's name, but there is a Palantine Blade in the EC who rejects chaos and any mutations in order to maintain the purity of being the Ultimate Swordsman. It's an excellent exception-that-proves-the-rule showing for the EC.

[bluntblade]

Cario. It should also be said that Eidolon gets a fantastic showing in that book.

[Plaguecaster]

Probably Mortarion even though he this the Primarch of my fav legion I really hate him since he always shown to be the biggest hypocrite (especially during the later stages when he started embracing witchcraft). Though I am curious to see him in the Horus heresy novel where the death guard fully fall to chaos

[The Nephilim]

Here's my list and the corresponding thoughts and notes.

 

Horus: For a master tactician in a league in a league all of his own, he couldn't see that he was being used?

Fulgrim: He abandoned his children for drugs and alcohol. I really, really have a deep seeded personal hatred for this.

Mortarion: I mean, how can a father hate his own kids? Like what the is wrong with you? Yes, there are times I dislike mine, but not to the extent of good ol' Papa Morty.

Angron: Dude. I get it. The Nails hurt. As someone who has to deal with extreme chronic pain every day of my life, shut up and get over it.

Magnus: Fix your kids! You can do it! Get off your lazy ass and get 'er dun.

Lion El'Jonson: Nobody likes emo kids.

Perturabo: Daddy didn't appreciate your efforts enough? ? Let me tell you about life and how full of disappointment and hardship it really is.

Lorgar: So big Papa Emps smashed your sandcastle and you're gonna initiate a galactic rebellion on a scale unheard of? You know what? Carry on. Your dad was a dick.

Konrad Curze: I actually liked you. I'm sorry you were murdered, Batman.

Alpharius/Omegon: I hate your whole trope and your stupid Metal Gear wanna be kids. You couldn't have died fast enough. Whichever one of you is actually dead. Because you know, you like all that mystery and .

 

‘There will come a day when we are not bound by the wills of those child-gods. For now, we must do as we have learned to – prosecute their wars, pretend we are the masters of our own fate.’ - Lord Commander Primus Eidolon of the Emperor's Children, prior to the Defense of the Kalium Gate

[Manchu warlord]

“Lorgar of Colchis. You may consider the following. One: I entirely withdraw my previous offer of solemn ceasefire. It is cancelled, and will not be made again, to you or to any other of your motherless bastards. Two: you are no longer any brother of mine. I will find you, I will kill you, and I will hurl your toxic corpse into hell’s mouth.”

[b1soul]

I think every single Primarch is a fascinating concept. I don't find any of them inherently unlikeable. Even Lorgar was badly, badly mismanaged by the Emperor, who had all the tact of doorknob.

 

I guess I'm less partial to the concept of Alpharius and his super-spy legion, but I still think they're unique MO contributes some interesting diversity to the legions.

 

However, some primarchs have certainly benefited from good writers, whereas others have been almost monopolised by writers, who in my personal opinion, are mediocre at best.

 

Imagine Jaghatai (Scars) in the hands of Kyme and Vulkan (Vulkan Lives) in the hands of Wraight...Angron (Betrayer) in the hands of Swallow and Sanguinius (Fear to Tread) in the hands of ADB...Russ in the hands of Thorpe (Prospero Burns) and Corax (Deliverance Lost) in the hands of Abnett

 

In some parallel universe, readers got a very different Horus Heresy series and think about what could have been if only someone made the Khan and his Vth interesting

[Scribe]

Yep, agreed b1soul. I mean some folks in this thread need to look into some clinical help for how poorly they are understanding whats going on here, but the authors have had a huge huge impact on the characterization of the Primarchs and how they are received. 

[Orwell84]

I think every single Primarch is a fascinating concept. I don't find any of them inherently unlikeable. Even Lorgar was badly, badly mismanaged by the Emperor, who had all the tact of doorknob.

 

I guess I'm less partial to the concept of Alpharius and his super-spy legion, but I still think they're unique MO contributes some interesting diversity to the legions.

 

However, some primarchs have certainly benefited from good writers, whereas others have been almost monopolised by writers, who in my personal opinion, are mediocre at best.

 

Imagine Jaghatai (Scars) in the hands of Kyme and Vulkan (Vulkan Lives) in the hands of Wraight...Angron (Betrayer) in the hands of Swallow and Sanguinius (Fear to Tread) in the hands of ADB...Russ in the hands of Thorpe (Prospero Burns) and Corax (Deliverance Lost) in the hands of Abnett

 

In some parallel universe, readers got a very different Horus Heresy series and think about what could have been if only someone made the Khan and his Vth interesting

 

Totally agree. In this series the writer makes or breaks the primarch, the main difference being your own opinion of writers. Vulkan's problem, IMHO, is that he's so far been handled by one author of uneven quality, and frankly I'm doubtful that Annandale will offer a huge improvement when Vulkan's primarch novel is released. To a lesser extent that's also true for Magnus, and he didn't even get a different author for his primarch story.

 

On the flip side, Jaghatai's benefited so far from being done solely by Wraight, and Mortarion to some degree as well.

 

End of the day, I think it's down to the fact that, for me at least, Abnett, ADB, Wraight and French are able to remain true to the primarch's character while still adding something new or a more compelling author's touch, while Kyme and Annandale haven't really accomplished that. Swallow, McNeill and Thorpe fall somewhere in-between.

[mc warhammer]

NIght haunter, I want him to be... more. but the writing is super dull and emo

idk about emo, but apart from adb and spurrier, i’ve been pretty bored by his appearances. i don’t hate him though

[Fedor]

I don't dislike any of the primarchs, but regarding the writers making or breaking the legions, i think the worst conceptual work for the 30k traitors was Abnett using the Alpha Legion's introduction to tell a not particularly serious spy story with a reincarnating Bond insert character, and throwing the secret international league of xenos(who it seems have since been killed off after little development) in at the end as a reason for them turning.

 

The book itself was entertaining, with some great chapters like the one where they meet the general and discuss the great crusade, but it shoehorned the AL down an awkward path for the rest of the series and seemed more like a tongue in cheek caricature of their existing lore than a serious attempt to introduce the Legion that fit with the tone of the series. This is more about the legion as a whole than Alpharius or Omegon though.

 

Interesting that he went in a vastly different direction with the Space Wolves intro in Prospero Burns. It similarly kept the Legion viewed through outside eyes for large parts, but was a far more tonally suitable and inventive take when it would have been easy to take the same light-hearted approach with the existing SW lore as he did in Legion and go full beer swilling Viking, with a remembrancer that gets bitten and turns into a werewolf and subsequently goes through a lot of horror movie tropes taking up half the page count, instead of bond and spy movie stuff.

[godking]

Kurze wasn't a hypocrite. He was simply wedded to a nightmarish worldview.

Yet he went in to a near catatonic shutdown when Sanguinus threatened to destroy his viewpoint.

[Ranwulf]

I am going to add one more thing I dont like about Angron:

 

He somehow is against tyrants, and is helping Horus to get the throne.

 

That is dumb and makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Ran

[bluntblade]

Horus is a less egregious tyrant to Angron's mind. At least with the Primarchs he asks them to follow.

[Indefragable]

I am going to add one more thing I dont like about Angron:

 

He somehow is against tyrants, and is helping Horus to get the throne.

 

That is dumb and makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Ran

 

 

Horus is a less egregious tyrant to Angron's mind. At least with the Primarchs he asks them to follow.

 

Yea I think Angron was just so pissed at the Emperor that he came to want only to tear down his vision as time went on. Between the literal destruction of his brain by the Butcher's Nails and the slow realization of how he could get back at the Emperor, I think Angron was ready to go full traitor on his own. Horus's rebellion was a train already in motion that he could easily hop onto.

 

Angron wanted to die with his gladiator buddies -- the only thing even somewhat close to true companionship he's ever had-- on Nuceria, but that was embarrassingly and devastatingly stolen from him. No wonder his first act upon being re-united with the XII was to chop up his "bodyguard." He tries to make the best of it by submerging himself in combat to at least kill the pain in his brain. But I think it slowly dawns on him that the Emperor is his real enemy and so he seeks to commit atrocities and sully the name and purpose of the Great Crusade during his conquests. But even that is not enough so when there's an opportunity to maybe kill Big E himself, or at least personally destroy as much of the Imperial Vision as possible, he signs right up.

 

How I process Angron's arc. And as many have said, while quite simple, it's understandable and not something I hold against him.

[Ranwulf]

 

I am going to add one more thing I dont like about Angron:

 

He somehow is against tyrants, and is helping Horus to get the throne.

 

That is dumb and makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Ran

 

 

Horus is a less egregious tyrant to Angron's mind. At least with the Primarchs he asks them to follow.

 

Yea I think Angron was just so pissed at the Emperor that he came to want only to tear down his vision as time went on. Between the literal destruction of his brain by the Butcher's Nails and the slow realization of how he could get back at the Emperor, I think Angron was ready to go full traitor on his own. Horus's rebellion was a train already in motion that he could easily hop onto.

 

Angron wanted to die with his gladiator buddies -- the only thing even somewhat close to true companionship he's ever had-- on Nuceria, but that was embarrassingly and devastatingly stolen from him. No wonder his first act upon being re-united with the XII was to chop up his "bodyguard." He tries to make the best of it by submerging himself in combat to at least kill the pain in his brain. But I think it slowly dawns on him that the Emperor is his real enemy and so he seeks to commit atrocities and sully the name and purpose of the Great Crusade during his conquests. But even that is not enough so when there's an opportunity to maybe kill Big E himself, or at least personally destroy as much of the Imperial Vision as possible, he signs right up.

 

How I process Angron's arc. And as many have said, while quite simple, it's understandable and not something I hold against him.

 

 

Horus is a less egregious tyrant to Angron's mind. At least with the Primarchs he asks them to follow.

 

He actually says he doesnt follow Horus in "Lord of the Red Sands", but he still go and fight with Lorgar and do all these other things that clearly show he does obey Horus. He says he wants to kill the Emperor because he wants freedom, but he himself shackles to ANOTHER tyrant instead of just do like Jaghatai and just get out of the Imperium or fight everyone.

 

Its just dumb, hypocritical and honestly it just makes Angron even more stupid than if he just wanted to kill, maim and burn.

 

Ran

[Scribe]

The point of Angron is lost on soo many.

 

It's not about toppling Tyrants. It's about pissing on the ashes of a structure and lord, built on Slavery, but also he hates the Emperor, first and last.

 

Night of the Wolf gives you all the answers here, though Lord of the Red Sands helps.

 

He's not a noble hero.

 

He's not even playing the same game as everyone else.

 

He's in it for a chance to pull down the ultimate representation of the lords of his world, that oh BTW, the Emperor sided with.

 

If he gets to find his serenity (aka go into a trace of death dealing) and avoid the reality he is faced with otherwise in the process?

 

Win-Win.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

IMO World Eaters used to have martial honor which is a huge deal but then people like ADB turned them into messed up psyko killers.

[Bluedoo]

IMO World Eaters used to have martial honor which is a huge deal but then people like ADB turned them into messed up psyko killers.

 

I think this was intentional, as its the tragedy of the Warhounds legion.

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

I guess we can ignore the fact that they had their own version of commissars to keep them in line.

We can ignore the blood bath that was the Cerberus Insurrection.

We can ignore the reputation they earned on Terra and the Sol System early in their history.

We can ignore the fights to the death in the pits.

Let us just blame one author for the behavior of what could be argued are Thunder Warriors with the whole "fall over dead at any time" problem fixed.

No need to mention the pain engines that are driven into their skulls.

[Bluedoo]

 

Let us just blame one author for the behavior of what could be argued are Thunder Warriors with the whole "fall over dead at any time" problem fixed.

 

 

 

 

Lol

[Scribe]

ADB didn't change the World Eaters. That claim demonstrates a huge gap in setting knowledge.

 

He simply shows the only logical path through the story that holds true to the previous canon.

[bluntblade]

Black Orange, I fear that the notion of a tragic flaw eludes your understanding. The Nails make the World Eaters into a fascinating entity, as dangerous as they are broken and hating a father they find themselves driven to emulate out of kinship. Sigismund having a friendly spar with Khârn has an underlying tension because it's just possible that the Nails will push his friend over the edge.

 

The War Hounds had issues, admittedly, but the early VIth had similar and worse, but their Primarch tempered them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Were the nails first introduced in Betrayer right ?

 

You can try talking down to me - I don't really care TBH . TIFDA

[Lord_Caerolion]

Nope, no they were not. 

 

Also, arguing that Angron isn't making rational decisions based on logic is kinda funny. He's a demigod with neurological implants replacing all emotions other than rage with pain, rebelling against a father who betrayed everything he ever had, following a brother who showed he understood his pains, and asked him to follow. To us, Horus is yet another tyrant. To Angron, he's probably the first figure who's had an actual familial relationship with, who has fought alongside him willingly rather than forced by gladiatorial overseers or through induction into a Legion he didn't ask for.