Which traitor Primarchs do you dislike the most and why

[Ranwulf]

Are people seriously saying that this is a lack of knowledge of the Lore?

 

Ok then lets go to Index Astartes that says:

 

"It was around this time that the Emperor came to this world, drawn in by the psychic aura of the Primarch. The Emperor had observed Angron from orbit for some time, watching with pride as he led slaves in battle. Now he descended to the planet's surface offering Angron leadership of the World Eaters Space Marine Legion and a place at his side. But to the Emperors, surprise, Angron refused. His place was here, with his fellows slaves, and he would die before deserting them. Angron and the slaves dug their graves during the night, a signal to their enemies that they would fight to the death before surrendering". Pg. 15, Index Astartes Vol.2, Chosen of Khorne by Graham Mcneil.

 

It changed at its basics that it wasnt the Emperor just snaffing Angron, and in fact, different from A LOT of concepts that we get today, the Emperor was actually PROUD of Angron. And he even talked with him about it and how we wanted to take him with him. It shows that it was ANGRONS choice to die, instead of just being unceremoniously stolen.

 

Lets add more shall we? You know how Angron hates his Nails? It wasnt in the Index Astartes either.

 

"Knowing how effective at boosting a warrior's prowess the psycho surgery could be, Angron ordered the Techmarines of the World Eaters to duplicate the process, using the implants in his head as template."

 

This clearly means that he ORDERED it. He COMMANDED it to happen, a whole change from the current fluff where the World Eaters just went, took it to themselves to use it. And why?! To make him more tragic? Why did him of all people needed to be tragic? That wasnt his story, he was supposed to be the one chaos champion that WANTED to wage war.

 

Ran

[Dagoth Ur]

Were the nails first introduced in Betrayer right ?

 

You can try talking down to me - I don't really care TBH . TIFDA

 

The World Eaters have always been berzerkers and slaughterers, even back in 2nd edition and the Index Astartes days. Hell, if anything, ADB fleshed out any sentiment of martial honour amongst them. He was the first to give their legion and sire actual multidimensionality.

 

But any flaw automatically equals "psycho and bad writing" innit?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Are people seriously saying that this is a lack of knowledge of the Lore?

 

Ok then lets go to Index Astartes that says:

 

"It was around this time that the Emperor came to this world, drawn in by the psychic aura of the Primarch. The Emperor had observed Angron from orbit for some time, watching with pride as he led slaves in battle. Now he descended to the planet's surface offering Angron leadership of the World Eaters Space Marine Legion and a place at his side. But to the Emperors, surprise, Angron refused. His place was here, with his fellows slaves, and he would die before deserting them. Angron and the slaves dug their graves during the night, a signal to their enemies that they would fight to the death before surrendering". Pg. 15, Index Astartes Vol.2, Chosen of Khorne by Graham Mcneil.

 

It changed at its basics that it wasnt the Emperor just snaffing Angron, and in fact, different from A LOT of concepts that we get today, the Emperor was actually PROUD of Angron. And he even talked with him about it and how we wanted to take him with him. It shows that it was ANGRONS choice to die, instead of just being unceremoniously stolen.

 

Lets add more shall we? You know how Angron hates his Nails? It wasnt in the Index Astartes either.

 

"Knowing how effective at boosting a warrior's prowess the psycho surgery could be, Angron ordered the Techmarines of the World Eaters to duplicate the process, using the implants in his head as template."

 

This clearly means that he ORDERED it. He COMMANDED it to happen, a whole change from the current fluff where the World Eaters just went, took it to themselves to use it. And why?! To make him more tragic? Why did him of all people needed to be tragic? That wasnt his story, he was supposed to be the one chaos champion that WANTED to wage war.

 

Ran

 

He doesn't hate the Nails, though? He oversaw their implantation into the Legion? That wasn't changed. All that was mentioned was that the World Eaters willingly went along with it, hoping that it'd bring them closer to their Primarch. Where are you getting that he hated them? Lorgar did. The Emperor did. Angron loved them. Please provide a source for Angron hating the Nails.

 

Also, the whole thing with the Emperor being proud doesn't change the fact that he had a Legion in orbit that he could have used. Hell, he had a fleet that he could have had open fire. He had himself and his Custodes. In the other example of the Emperor finding a Primarch on the eve of a battle, with Corax, he deploys his Legion to have them win the war that Corax didn't want to abandon, proceeding to induct many of the other slaves into the Raven Guard. It was the Emperors choice to have the slave army die in battle, when he easily could have swayed the course of the battle, fighting at his sons side.

 

You can see why this might cause Angron to resent him somewhat, can't you?

 

Also, I love the irony of defending against having lack of knowledge in the lore by massively missing or misinterpreting the point of the latest fluff. Please tell me, I have to know, where are you getting this supposed new fluff from? Because it sure ain't from Betrayer or the other books.

[Scribe]

Are people seriously saying that this is a lack of knowledge of the Lore?

 

Ok then lets go to Index Astartes that says:

 

"It was around this time that the Emperor came to this world, drawn in by the psychic aura of the Primarch. The Emperor had observed Angron from orbit for some time, watching with pride as he led slaves in battle. Now he descended to the planet's surface offering Angron leadership of the World Eaters Space Marine Legion and a place at his side. But to the Emperors, surprise, Angron refused. His place was here, with his fellows slaves, and he would die before deserting them. Angron and the slaves dug their graves during the night, a signal to their enemies that they would fight to the death before surrendering". Pg. 15, Index Astartes Vol.2, Chosen of Khorne by Graham Mcneil.

 

It changed at its basics that it wasnt the Emperor just snaffing Angron, and in fact, different from A LOT of concepts that we get today, the Emperor was actually PROUD of Angron. And he even talked with him about it and how we wanted to take him with him. It shows that it was ANGRONS choice to die, instead of just being unceremoniously stolen.

 

Lets add more shall we? You know how Angron hates his Nails? It wasnt in the Index Astartes either.

 

"Knowing how effective at boosting a warrior's prowess the psycho surgery could be, Angron ordered the Techmarines of the World Eaters to duplicate the process, using the implants in his head as template."

 

This clearly means that he ORDERED it. He COMMANDED it to happen, a whole change from the current fluff where the World Eaters just went, took it to themselves to use it. And why?! To make him more tragic? Why did him of all people needed to be tragic? That wasnt his story, he was supposed to be the one chaos champion that WANTED to wage war.

 

Ran

 

What are you talking about? I'm used to it with Black Orange, but you are missing the point in a huge way.

 

Of course Angron directed the implantation. Of course Angron rejected the Emperor.

 

ADB changed nothing of consequence. At all.

 

I'd recommend a re-read of Betrayer, because ADB doesnt invent new concepts, if anything ADB is the only one that holds firmly to what what came before and adds nuance and depth.

[Marshal Loss]

Angron goes so far as to describe the nails as a 'gift,' telling Guilliman that they let him dream, and give him peace. He has a complicated relationship with them, but nowhere does ADB make it seem like he hates his implants. As Scribe says, ADB isn't a 180 degree kind of author. He's very faithful to the original source material. It's a big part of why I think he's so brilliant.

 

He somehow is against tyrants, and is helping Horus to get the throne.

 

That is dumb and makes no sense whatsoever.

 

I don't think that's true at all.

 

 

‘You heard me,’ replied Angron. ‘Let history mark my words well, for I care nothing about who sits proud on the Throne of Terra when the last day dawns. Horus is a fine commander, but that’s the limit of my admiration for that arrogant, preening bastard. I joined his rebellion because I can tolerate him easier than I can endure the abomination that names himself Master of Mankind. You want the truth of my life and death? I am Angron, the Eater of Worlds, and I am already dead. I died over a hundred years ago, in the mountains north of the city that enslaved me. I died after Desh’ea.’

Angron rocked back and forth, the blades lowering, his eyes unfocusing. ‘The Emperor. High-rider dog-filth. When Horus called, I gave my word. I gave my word, because I lived when I should have died. That’s no gift. He made me a traitor! He made me betray the only oath that mattered! I lived and my brothers and sisters died here, their bones left for the vermin, the wind, the snow.’

 

 

There are numerous other Primarchs who are "anti-tyrant" as well - Mortarion springs to mind as the obvious example - and who still support Horus in his quest. In these cases it almost invariably boils down to their preexisting hatred of the Emperor. Angron has some very valid reasons to despise the Emperor. Angron was never a loyal servant to Horus and it's not like he really cared about his ambitions anyway. It was all about removing the Emperor from the Throne for him, not placing Horus on it.

 

He's a fatalistic warrior who is exclusively focused on tearing down the godlike personification of the tyrants whom he had dedicated his life to destroying. There's a tragedy inherent in Angron because he never had the chance to be the man he could have been. That doesn't make him any less of a bloodthirsty war-loving fiend, but it provides depth to what would otherwise be a shallow, two-dimensional walking blender.

 

And on a final note:

 

 

It’s our shame to bear before the other Legions, brother. Angron was broken long before he ever reached us. Why do you think we let him beat the Nails into our heads? We hoped that by breaking ourselves on the same anvil, we’d finally feel unity with our father.

 

 

Not "we did it of our own accord," but "he ordered it, and we didn't resist." That's from Betrayer, and it marks no change from the Index Astartes lore.

[Slan Drakkos]

Thus far, my least favorite traitor primarch are as follows.

 

1. Kurze. He's a sociopath with psychotic tendencies. I can understand that his existence is pain, but he spends so much time being an idotic moody jerk that it's rediculous. "I don't get why my legion that's currently recruiting from a planet of gangsters, murderers, and rapists is filled with people that like hurting the weak. I know, I'll blow up the planet instead of just killing half of the legion and recruiting from somewhere else!"

 

"My brother doesn't understand my feelings. I know, I'll torture him until he's as moody as me. That's definitely better than planning attack paths for how to get to Terra!"

 

"I'm just gonna let myself die and let this full legion of superhuman murderers roam the Galaxy. I'm making such a good point."

 

2. Mortarion. Hates psykers. His best bro is a psyker. Chooses to keep Garro alive. Garro runs away and tells the emperor. His best bro betrays and infects him and all of his men. Gets his teeth locked in by the Khan. Claims legion is one of the best. Tells Horus that he WILL be at the battle of Terra because he's important. Fails miserably to kill or even fully cripple the Khan even when backed up by III legion fleet. Can someone please explain how he's not the single biggest failure in 30k.

 

3. Magnus. I don't hate him. It's just that the mistakes that he made were so glaringly obvious that it's a wonder that he was considered one of the smartest.

 

Top three faves

 

1. Fulgrim

2. Lorgar

3. Perturabo

[b1soul]

Angron is probably missing a few chunks of his brain...cut him some slack

[Lord_Caerolion]

Can't imagine the cybergladiator-making slavers particularly cared about the hygiene of their operating room either.

 

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the implantation of the Butchers Nails was done by a few good whacks with the Surgeons Hammer.

[TheStatusJoe]

Lorgar. I hate the Turd Bearers too. 

 

I don't get the "The Emperor said don't worship him, so we started worshipping something else" logic.

[Scribe]

Lorgar. I hate the Turd Bearers too. 

 

I don't get the "The Emperor said don't worship him, so we started worshipping something else" logic.

 

Thats what you get out of The First Heretic?

[Slan Drakkos]

Lorgar. I hate the Turd Bearers too.

 

I don't get the "The Emperor said don't worship him, so we started worshipping something else" logic.

so.....did you read anything with Lorgar in it?

 

Imagine for a moment that all your life you believed in the existence of something greater than you or anyone else. Imagine that your dad was so powerful that the universe basically revolved around him. Imagine that he adamantly says that there isn't anything out there and has one of your brothers burn down this amazing city that you build for him because it's too religiously charged.

 

Now imagine for a moment that you not only do you find out that there is in fact a god, you find out that by believing and worshipping god hard enough, you and all of the believers can become immortal. Now imagine that you put 2 and 2 together and realize that not only has your dad been keeping this from you, he's also a legit heretic by opposing the will of God.

[Grotsmasha]

=] LETS KEEP IT CIVIL, LETS STAY ON TOPIC [=

[bluntblade]

2. Mortarion. Hates psykers. His best bro is a psyker. Chooses to keep Garro alive. Garro runs away and tells the emperor. His best bro betrays and infects him and all of his men. Gets his teeth locked in by the Khan. Claims legion is one of the best. Tells Horus that he WILL be at the battle of Terra because he's important. Fails miserably to kill or even fully cripple the Khan even when backed up by III legion fleet. Can someone please explain how he's not the single biggest failure in 30k.

The Garro bit is just quite poorly written. Re the rest:

 

1. Having been a necromancer's apprentice and used the Dark Arts to some extent, he likely admires Typhon's refusal of his own own gift. Which is more honourable than simply confining the guy to a nothing rank in spite of his clear prowess. I suspect Typhon's betrayal will be more complicated now, seeing as Mortarion is now trying to bring him to heel.

 

2. The Khan has the advantage early on. Mortarion rallies and forces the duel into confines which favour his style over his opponent. Jaghatai, flagging like he never he's before, wonders if any of his brothers could have endured like Mortarion does, sustains serious sounds himself and before Mortarion withdraws, commits to an all-or-nothing strike. We can't know who would have won there.

 

3. Mortarion's bitterness and paranoia figures here. The Death Guard have been murdering entire worlds and fighting alongside the Sons of Horus, a level of glory they are not used to. Mortarion suspects that it's too good to be true, even when he's the only sane, reliable commander Horus (in the Warmaster's own words) has left.

 

4. The Scars' fleet is half the size it used to be after Catallus, and they only escape due to a Webway Gate that Mortarion couldn't have possibly known about. Before the rift (which even then they could only navigate thanks to the presence of one particular character) opened they were doomed. Categorically, Jaghatai-saw-no-escape doomed. Yes Mortarion's hubristic here, but that's part of the point. It's thematically the point, as the Khan shuns the fatalistic option and traps Mortarion by doing so. To pull off that escape takes a Gloriana and two of the series' all-time-great acts of self-sacrifice.

 

Angron is probably missing a few chunks of his brain...cut him some slack

He literally is. I forget whether it's confirmed before MoM or not, but yeah, the device is right inside Angron's brain and replaces parts of it.

[b1soul]

As for Lorgar, he seeks the to worship true gods and spread that truth.

 

The Emperor rejected his devotion and brutally humiliated him. The Emperor's EQ (from a human perspective) is easily Negative 9000.

 

Lorgar also realises that the Emperor is suppressing knowledge of entities whom could easily be viewed as the true gods of Lorgar's universe.

 

The Emperor designed Lorgar a certain way and then, through abysmal parental blundering, made it extremely hard for Lorgar to remain loyal to him.

 

If any primarch's fall is weakly justified, it would probably be Perturabo's, not Lorgar's.

 

Perturabo is resentful that he gets garrison/attrition duties instead of freedom to indulge in his creative desires like a far future Leonardo Da Vinci. He still gets to do a lot of creative tinkering in his personal work space, but apparently, that's not enough. He needs to be treated like artist...or something like that.

[Slan Drakkos]

If any primarch's fall is weakly justified, it would probably be Perturabo's, not Lorgar's.

Perturabo is resentful that he gets garrison/attrition duties instead of freedom to indulge in his creative desires like a far future Leonardo Da Vinci. He still gets to do a lot of creative tinkering in his personal work space, but apparently, that's not enough. He needs to be treated like artist...or something like that.

not quite true. Perturabo wanted to be a diplomat, artist, and an architect. Growing up on his home world though, his adoptive dad forced him to be a warlord when all he really wanted to do was improve the quality of other people's lives. Imagine how it must have felt for him when his real dad came down with this super ornate armor while glowing good and said to him "hello son. Yes that's right, you are my son. Come with me and I shall let you provide an incredible service to humanity........by being a warlord in space".

 

Perturabo is just like Lorgar and Angron. He never wanted to be a warrior but he wanted to be a good and dutiful son, so he became one anyway. Unlike the rest of his brothers though, he was given the hardest job. He and his legion constantly hoped for a chance to engage in guerrilla warfare, defense missions, or evacuation. Anything but seige warfare. Guess what they got time and time again.

 

Moreover, when they did fight side by side with their fellow legions, they got no credit. There was a battle where the Imperial Fists fought beside the Iron Warriors and this artist painted a portrait to show this glorious imperial victory. The artist painted iron warriors dying in the mud like dogs while the Imperial Fists rode onward to victory like each one of them was freaking Napoleon Bonaparte.

 

Perturabo realized that his sacrifices and the sacrifices of his sons weren't being respected. Of course he went with his favorite brother Horus. At least Horus could understand their sacrifices.

[bluntblade]

But then the Iron Warriors spent their mortal soldiers like copper pennies. No remembrancer would want to glamourise them.

 

Side note: the painting's more dignified than I'd expected.

[Indefragable]

But then the Iron Warriors spent their mortal soldiers like copper pennies. No remembrancer would want to glamourise them.

 

Side note: the painting's more dignified than I'd expected.

 

I think that painting in the link you sent sums up Perturabo: it focuses on the cost of the Iron Warriors and their ability to triage what they while on the way to supporting victory...but of course Perty would not even see the depiction of the IW in the foreground (right in your face, mind you), and instead zoom in on the relatively small background feature of someone else's flag in the background. I wonder if he would know praise when it was given to him?

[DogWelder]

I never got Kurze's antagonism towards Guilliman in the Unremembered Empire arc. Or what he was trying to prove to him.

 

"Aha! By terrorizing and creating a rebellion on Macragge, I will show that even the so-called perfect society has flaws!"

 

...except Guilliman never said he was building a perfect society? In fact he outright admits that, like every human civilization of this scale, Ultramar has a ton of flaws that can probably never be fixed.

[The Nephilim]

Angron goes so far as to describe the nails as a 'gift,' telling Guilliman that they let him dream, and give him peace. He has a complicated relationship with them, but nowhere does ADB make it seem like he hates his implants. As Scribe says, ADB isn't a 180 degree kind of author. He's very faithful to the original source material. It's a big part of why I think he's so brilliant.

 

He somehow is against tyrants, and is helping Horus to get the throne.

 

That is dumb and makes no sense whatsoever.

 

I don't think that's true at all.

 

 

‘You heard me,’ replied Angron. ‘Let history mark my words well, for I care nothing about who sits proud on the Throne of Terra when the last day dawns. Horus is a fine commander, but that’s the limit of my admiration for that arrogant, preening bastard. I joined his rebellion because I can tolerate him easier than I can endure the abomination that names himself Master of Mankind. You want the truth of my life and death? I am Angron, the Eater of Worlds, and I am already dead. I died over a hundred years ago, in the mountains north of the city that enslaved me. I died after Desh’ea.’

Angron rocked back and forth, the blades lowering, his eyes unfocusing. ‘The Emperor. High-rider dog-filth. When Horus called, I gave my word. I gave my word, because I lived when I should have died. That’s no gift. He made me a traitor! He made me betray the only oath that mattered! I lived and my brothers and sisters died here, their bones left for the vermin, the wind, the snow.’

 

 

There are numerous other Primarchs who are "anti-tyrant" as well - Mortarion springs to mind as the obvious example - and who still support Horus in his quest. In these cases it almost invariably boils down to their preexisting hatred of the Emperor. Angron has some very valid reasons to despise the Emperor. Angron was never a loyal servant to Horus and it's not like he really cared about his ambitions anyway. It was all about removing the Emperor from the Throne for him, not placing Horus on it.

 

He's a fatalistic warrior who is exclusively focused on tearing down the godlike personification of the tyrants whom he had dedicated his life to destroying. There's a tragedy inherent in Angron because he never had the chance to be the man he could have been. That doesn't make him any less of a bloodthirsty war-loving fiend, but it provides depth to what would otherwise be a shallow, two-dimensional walking blender.

 

And on a final note:

 

 

It’s our shame to bear before the other Legions, brother. Angron was broken long before he ever reached us. Why do you think we let him beat the Nails into our heads? We hoped that by breaking ourselves on the same anvil, we’d finally feel unity with our father.

 

 

Not "we did it of our own accord," but "he ordered it, and we didn't resist." That's from Betrayer, and it marks no change from the Index Astartes lore.

This. This made me like Angron. Like a lot.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, Curze's characterization in that story arc was pretty abysmal. They turned "Batman using the Jokers tactics" into "I like skinning people 'cause I am teh evilz!"

 

In regards to Perturabo, there was definitely an element of a persecution complex, but you've gotta admit, when you crack the defenses of an impenetrable fortress planet for the Space Wolves and Raven Guard, only for the records to mention the battle as "Leman Russ, Corax, and a nameless comrade conquered the planet", you can kinda see where he's getting it from. Yeah, that artwork linked isn't disrespectful, but has that been confirmed as actually being what the painting was supposed to be?

[b1soul]

Perturabo's unhappiness stems from pack of recognition and being assigned a military role he didn't like. Much more mundane than some of the other Traitor Primarchs.

 

Diversity of motivation is good, just saying his reason is weaker, and a bit pettier, than others.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I am trying to think if there are actually any traitor Primarchs I actually like - nah .

[Slan Drakkos]

I am trying to think if there are actually any traitor Primarchs I actually like - nah .

but why tho?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

None of them have any redeeming values IMO. I will make one exception and that is Magnus - he is the most enlightened and change is constant.

[Manchu warlord]

None of them have any redeeming values IMO. I will make one exception and that is Magnus - he is the most enlightened and change is constant.

Also, he will continue to be the Wolve's nightmare for the millenniums to come.