Codex Space Marines Amendments

[Ipsen]

I like the lieutenants give an extra shot to bolters at rapid fire range change. Maybe Chaplains swap rerolls for an extra attack on the charge? For me volume is where space marines are hurting the most at the moment. Maybe a 1 cp stratagem that increases the aoe of a single character bubble for one turn to alleviate blobbing.

[Panzer]

I'd like that rule. Preferably a full army wide rule but at least a Stratagem.

 

I noticed my 'like' is not very informative. Yeah I'd take it as army wide rule. For every kind of unit if possible. There will be units who'll benefit less from it (Lascannons, Hellblaster, etc) but that's fine imo. It's mainly to change the army dynamic to favour close to mid ranged shooting and to buff units without powerful weapons like Tacticals, Assault Marines and Bikes anyway.

[Captain Idaho]

Chaplains giving an extra attack is cool though they are assault Captains right now. Chaplains would be worthwhile if there were cheaper and easier ways to get into close combat.

 

I like the extra bolter shot for Lieutenants but again I just don't see GW making such a dramatic change to them.

[Ipsen]

I like the lieutenants give an extra shot to bolters at rapid fire range change. Maybe Chaplains swap rerolls for an extra attack on the charge? For me volume is where space marines are hurting the most at the moment. Maybe a 1 cp stratagem that increases the aoe of a single character bubble for one turn to alleviate blobbing.

 

Or instead of changing the chaplain bring back command squads by giving the +1 attack bubble to the company champion and making the standard fight once more before dying instead of the pitiful make one last attack.

[Ishagu]

Yeah I think we need different buffs from different characters.

Chaplains granting an extra attack is a good idea but they should also give re rolls to hit and wound in CC.

 

That might sound overly powerful, but the fact is that Marines are generally poor in CC and the damage as well as number of attacks is quite low.

[Panzer]

I'd honestly like to see the Chaplain give something for an army that doesn't necessarily wants to end up in melee as well. Marines want close/mid ranged shooting fights, not melee. So while buffing their melee capabilities would be nice, it's not what most Marine armies would want and so those armies wouldn't have much need for a Chaplain and would probably be better off with just taking a Captain or Librarian. Basically like it is right now.

[Captain Idaho]

Hence why I gave the Chaplain a 6+ save aura for mortal wounds in these changes. He grants some defence equal to Custodes whilst also being a close combat boost in an army that'll stand more of a chance up close thanks to changes. ;)

[Panzer]

Not really a fan of that one. I generally don't think it's worth paying points for a 6+ save/fnp. It's just too unreliable. And on top of that it's only against Mortal wounds so it doesn't even work against the majority of damage your guys will take anyway. ^^

[Ipsen]

@Captain Idaho Reading through the top comment the full servo harness already gives 2 servo arm attacks or did you just want it to be more clearly worded?

[Ishagu]

Not really a fan of that one. I generally don't think it's worth paying points for a 6+ save/fnp. It's just too unreliable. And on top of that it's only against Mortal wounds so it doesn't even work against the majority of damage your guys will take anyway. ^^

That's not a rule I would ever consider paying points for.

An aura effect providing a 16% chance to save a mortal wound is a pretty terrible rule and wouldn't put Chaplains on the map.

 

They need a tangible bonus and set of rules that a player can form tactics around.

[Captain Idaho]

@Captain Idaho Reading through the top comment the full servo harness aldready gives 2 servo arm attacks or did you just want it to be more clearer worded?

Well the current rules for a servo arm and servo harness are the attacks come out of the model's current attacks, whereas the change I suggested was the attacks are in addition to. Which makes them much more useful.

[Ipsen]

 

@Captain Idaho Reading through the top comment the full servo harness aldready gives 2 servo arm attacks or did you just want it to be more clearer worded?

Well the current rules for a servo arm and servo harness are the attacks come out of the model's current attacks, whereas the change I suggested was the attacks are in addition to. Which makes them much more useful.

Ah right. So there’s actually a point to him having another melee weapon. Shame he can’t get the omnisiah axe thing. Techmarines are usually modelled with one but it’s just a power axe in the rules.

[Dracos]

So Chaplains add +1 attack melee or +1 to hit on overwatch? Keep the push on melee but useful for shooty marines?

[Panzer]

Overwatch is unmodified shots so it would have to be worded differently but that's not the actual problem I see with it. The real problem I see is that overwatch helps a shooty list only against very few opponents. Shooting is still the main thing in 40k after all.

Consider this: T'au have a Sept Tenet that gives their whole army overwatch on 5+. On top of that T'au can do their supporting overwatch thing which works really well together. On top of even that they can give battle suits the ability to re-roll overwatch.
And despite all this it's not the default Sept to go for T'au players. Why? Because there's not enough charging happening unless you keep playing against daemons, Orks and Tyranids all the time and because it's a pure passive trait which you can't use in any of your tactics to gain an advantage without the opponent willingly falling to it. If he doesn't charge you there's nothing you can do about it so it's like playing workout any trait at all.

The same would go for the chaplain. Why would a gunline take him over a captain, lieutenant or psyker which all have much better buffs or are generally good on their own.
Maybe an aura that allows to fall back and shoot instead? That would give Marine players another reason to get close and dirty even with their shooty units but would take away from the UM chapter tactics.
Or +1 to armor saves when within 12" of the shooting unit? Could word it like them counting in cover so it doesn't stream with each other (Sv1+ PA Marines really does sound a bit ridiculous lol).

[Ipsen]

The same would go chaplain. Why would a gunline take him over a captain, lieutenant or psyker which all have much better buffs or are generally good on their own.

 

Why does a chaplain need to be taken in a gunline?

[Panzer]

 

The same would go chaplain. Why would a gunline take him over a captain, lieutenant or psyker which all have much better buffs or are generally good on their own.

 

Why does a chaplain need to be taken in a gunline?

 

 

Because the argument was that he should be useful to any kind of Marine army and not just melee armies which are obviously not even what Marine armies are supposed to be.

[Ipsen]

What are marines supposed to be?

[Panzer]

What are marines supposed to be?

 

Uhm close to mid range shooty as the heavy armor and lots of rapid fire at ~12", melta, flamer, bikes, jump pack infantry and terminators indicate? Didn't think that's something needing explanation. ^^

[Kallas]

 

 

What are marines supposed to be?

Uhm close to mid range shooty as the heavy armor and lots of rapid fire at ~12", melta, flamer, bikes, jump pack infantry and terminators indicate? Didn't think that's something needing explanation. ^^

Yup, and they're definitely not a melee heavy army. Even Blood Angels struggle when they use too many melee units.

[Subtleknife]

To stop marines blobbing what about changing it so instead of auras it relies on having sergeants in the squad. If the sergeant is in the squad they get access to to the buff from the original unit such as a capt. The fluff behind this would be that using vox comms to transmit order etc. Always found it odd a supposedly mobile army had to clump round a character to recieve buffs when they are supposed to have vox units in the fluff. The counter to this could be allowing sniper units to target the sergeant etc.

[Panzer]

Well Sergeants are free and it's up to you when you remove them (so usually last). That's basically giving every unit that benefit for free without any condition. I don't think changing how Sniper work is something within frame of the changes Captain Idaho is aiming for. ^^

[MARK0SIAN]

I’d like Chaplains to make units auto-pass morale tests and have something like the demoralising shout ability that prevents enemy units firing overwatch.

[Ipsen]

 

What are marines supposed to be?

 

 

Uhm close to mid range shooty as the heavy armor and lots of rapid fire at ~12", melta, flamer, bikes, jump pack infantry and terminators indicate? Didn't think that's something needing explanation. ^^

Ok so the question was meant to be ambiguous. For you to realise that how you see marines is not necessarily how everyone sees them. I personally see marines as all-rounders. Jack of all trades master of none. A stat line to prop them up so they can do whatever they want. Tactical flexibility being the tag line. You are shying away from melee but from my point of view them being "melee capable" is very different to "melee focused".

[Kallas]

You are shying away from melee but from my point of view them being "melee capable" is very different to "melee focused".

Marines aren't really melee capable, however.

 

Elite Marine units, like Vanguard, are roughly capable but only barely considering their cost. Basic Marine units like Assault Marines are trash.

 

Marines very much utilise melee for the simple purpose of shutting down guns, or they have a very specialised unit that cab maybe hunt a particular target (such as Thunder Hammer Vanguard going after vehicles). Otherwise, it's shooty Marines charging worse shooty things (like Guardsmen) to tie them up for a round.

 

In the background, Tactical and Assault Marines should absolutely be melee capable; given the rules we actually have they are melee-averse.

[Ipsen]

Ah yes I wasn't trying to say that marines are good at melee now but as you say;

 

In the background, Tactical and Assault Marines should absolutely be melee capable; given the rules we actually have they are melee-averse.