Codex Space Marines Amendments

[autek mor]

it is a testament to the weakness of the codex that this thread is still active.

[redmapa]

it is a testament to the weakness of the codex that this thread is still active.

 

Or to the popularity of Space Marines. Regardless this subject has become in vogue for the past couple of months so we will see if GW actually does anything when the September FAQ drops but Im not holding my breath for anything good or beneficial.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Oddly, this is where we need some old school GW, back when it all felt a bit more human and Chapter Approved was Andy Chambers's monthly column to tinker with the game.

 

It was one of those articles which gave Terminators their first invulnerable save. The article basically said,

 

'Do you know what sucks? No one's playing terminators anymore, I keep looking around, and noone takes them. They are classic SM units which should be played, I know, I'll give them all a 5+ invulnerable save for free! Boom.' 'Drops mic.'

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They need someone who loves SM to fix them.

[UnkyHamHam]

They need someone who loves SM to fix them.

Yes, but not a fanboy. Someone who can think critically and objectively, but is also fueled by passion and love of the game/models/fluff.

 

We have at least a dozen or so capable people in this thread alone fitting of that. Our good Captain does a very good job at this.

[Captain Idaho]

Ah shucks.

 

I would like GW to take this feedback seriously. It's a bit of a limbo right now. All these new Codex books have received zero support save big robots, super super humans and Nurgle Marines.

 

Oh and a Cryptek!

 

I suspect this is business based. A big 2nd edition AoS release was naturally going to soak a lot of resources so I believe post summer we'll see this turn around as Codex books will be finished and AoS edition newness settled.

 

I mean, I'm dying for Tactical Marines with Breacher Shields and Assault Marines as Destroyers, Terminator weapons upgrades and even a new Codex for Primaris alongside it (I want a civil war between Classic and Primaris!)

[Panzer]

Well yeah we're still in the "get everyone up and ready for the new edition" phase. Proper support will come afterwards via campaigns and stuff. I'm looking forward to that. ^^

[chapter master 454]

They really need to just bring in a whole slew of changes really. The big one is a universal upgrade to all marines who aren't scouts to 2 wounds minimum. Primaris should be special in their new gear, and possibly to compensate give them a raw 6+++ (which could be improved by iron hands tactic) but also ensure a lot of other marines get good treatment. Tacticals need changed hard, even if just giving them wider weapon options but then again as I said about giving all marines min 2 wounds, also min 2 attacks. Serious, give them some good buffs and even if you have to up points. I want marines to feel like an elite army, not some sort of well equipped imperial guard!

 

Marine armies should be a size between Custodes and Imperial guard and right now, they aren't ether really. To be fair, guard lists are normally a super-heavy with psyker backing...meanwhile us marines have nothing really.

 

My biggest gripe was the "removing options we don't sell"...that just...GARRRRRRRRRRRH I want to strangle whoever did that idea and smash their skull in because it is so STUPID. Yes, that is why your kits have so much modularity, because it is all just for the self contained unit, not because it makes it super easy for anyone to make awesome conversions of units and allow them options else not supplied in other boxes thus giving customers reason to buy other boxes. IT ANNOYS ME. Marines thankfully weren't hit too hard by it but if that was their MO I am surprised Tacticals still have options for anything other than a missile launcher! It just killed creative flow really...

 

It feels so bad. SO BAD when we can collective come up with these solutions because we actually HAVE PLAYED THE CODEX, talked with each other, had serious debates over things and done the proper cycle of feedback and design considerations instead of GWs standard of "Hey you...make us a codex. No playtesting isn't allowed, all theorycraft and make sure to push new product we have here as hard as possible ok. K thanks"

 

/rant

(feeling just a little bad about how much playing the space marine codex feels like a handicap now having played other codexes...)

[CCE1981]

They really need to just bring in a whole slew of changes really. The big one is a universal upgrade to all marines who aren't scouts to 2 wounds minimum. Primaris should be special in their new gear, and possibly to compensate give them a raw 6+++ (which could be improved by iron hands tactic) but also ensure a lot of other marines get good treatment. Tacticals need changed hard, even if just giving them wider weapon options but then again as I said about giving all marines min 2 wounds, also min 2 attacks. Serious, give them some good buffs and even if you have to up points. I want marines to feel like an elite army, not some sort of well equipped imperial guard!

 

Marine armies should be a size between Custodes and Imperial guard and right now, they aren't ether really. To be fair, guard lists are normally a super-heavy with psyker backing...meanwhile us marines have nothing really.

 

My biggest gripe was the "removing options we don't sell"...that just...GARRRRRRRRRRRH I want to strangle whoever did that idea and smash their skull in because it is so STUPID. Yes, that is why your kits have so much modularity, because it is all just for the self contained unit, not because it makes it super easy for anyone to make awesome conversions of units and allow them options else not supplied in other boxes thus giving customers reason to buy other boxes. IT ANNOYS ME. Marines thankfully weren't hit too hard by it but if that was their MO I am surprised Tacticals still have options for anything other than a missile launcher! It just killed creative flow really...

 

It feels so bad. SO BAD when we can collective come up with these solutions because we actually HAVE PLAYED THE CODEX, talked with each other, had serious debates over things and done the proper cycle of feedback and design considerations instead of GWs standard of "Hey you...make us a codex. No playtesting isn't allowed, all theorycraft and make sure to push new product we have here as hard as possible ok. K thanks"

 

/rant

(feeling just a little bad about how much playing the space marine codex feels like a handicap now having played other codexes...)

I can go with this, though I would add that Terminators and models in Geavis armor should have three wounds.

[Panzer]

They really need to just bring in a whole slew of changes really. The big one is a universal upgrade to all marines who aren't scouts to 2 wounds minimum. Primaris should be special in their new gear, and possibly to compensate give them a raw 6+++ (which could be improved by iron hands tactic) but also ensure a lot of other marines get good treatment. Tacticals need changed hard, even if just giving them wider weapon options but then again as I said about giving all marines min 2 wounds, also min 2 attacks. Serious, give them some good buffs and even if you have to up points. I want marines to feel like an elite army, not some sort of well equipped imperial guard!

 

 

Yeah no. That's not going to happen. Proper Marine stats is the selling point of Primaris (on top of having better scaled models). GW won't ruin that by giving old Marines two wounds and attacks while giving Primaris only a 6+++. A 6+ of any kind is really useless due how unreliable it is.

[Ishagu]

The more I think about it the more it seems the old line won't get any changes beyond point adjustments. The downside of the regular line is how bloated it is, an how much redundancy is spread across the units - 3 Types of terminators, none of them good at shooting or assault is pretty silly. Assault Marines have literally no purpose when Vanguard Vets exist and are terrible in assault AND in shooting. I don't thing GW want to commit to supporting this at great lengths.

 

Primaris are shaping up to be a more specialised but effective army. Shooting units that do a good job, Jetpack units that make an impact the moment they arrive, Troop units that are decent at clearing hordes at range and in CC. They currently lack unit selections and wargear, and the costs need adjustments, but they can easily be expanded into a full and effective army with just a few additions and rule tweaks.

[Robbienw]

I think the purpose of this thread is to make codex space marines more effective. The space marine army as a whole, not a small section of it. It’s not really the place for pro-primaris propaganda is it?

 

Additionally, they are the same scale as regular marines, they are not a different scale. They are just physically larger.

[Panzer]

I think the purpose of this thread is to make codex space marines more effective. The space marine army as a whole, not a small section of it. It’s not really the place for pro-primaris propaganda is it?

 

Additionally, they are the same scale as regular marines, they are not a different scale. They are just physically larger.

 

I don't see that as pro-primaris propaganda. What Ishagu said is pretty much fact currently.

I said it before but I'll say it again, Marines as an army as we know them are outdated and flawed from a design point of view. If you adjust one thing you have to adjust it for basically every unit in the whole Codex across 6 Codexes (SM, BA, DA, SW, GK, DW) and then if we're fair for another 3+ Codexes (CSM, TSons, DG) because they all are at core copies of eachother just with different equipment and some additional stuff.

That's a lot to consider when trying to fix something as simple as just Tactical Marines unless you want to give them a rather extensive re-work instead of adjusting just the points or some stats.

 

 

Maybe scale was the wrong word. They have better proportions tho.

[Ishagu]

I'm not against the old Astartes at all. I'm simply saying that using one stat line to fill multiple roles in the codex and repeat it across multiple books is a terrible decision which leads to lots of redundancy and inability to adjust. sfPanzer worded it very well. You can bet Games Workshop are fully aware of this also.

 

Look at Dark Eldar for example. Wyches and Warriors are part of the same race but have different stats and core rules, not just equipment. It means that if Wyches are under-powered you can adjust their rules or points without altering 20 other units on top of that. Also, having less wargear options is actually better for game balancing as there are less variables to consider. Whist it's nice that a Tac sgt can take loads of different wargear in truth there is little point as most of it is ineffective or wasteful.

What Primaris do very well is having units with a purpose they are effective in fulfilling. Inceptors arrive and can put damage out, effectively. Marines have access to 7 different infantry units that can arrive from reserves yet Inceptors are the only ones that can reliably do what's intended. That's so wasteful.

 

The book will be incredibly difficult to re-design. Primaris, as a fresh start, are the best hope we can have for effective and thematic Astartes. In the meantime, if the points are lowered across the Astartes line it will at least keep marines playable.

[Captain Idaho]

Good points made by both sides. Classic Marines are a bloated product line in some aspects. However, some of that bloat comes from variants of armour like in Terminator Armour and multiple vehicles.

 

You could kill that bloat in one go by having 3 Vehicle chassis that buy weapons. Don't include transports and you still reduce 8 Heavy support choices to 3.

 

You can do the same with Vanguard and Sternguard.

 

Primaris separated from Classic is actually better for both types of Marines. Primaris get more stuff that focusses on their army and classic can be given more character in any plot direct they wish and get supported how they deserve.

 

Make the armies distinct.

 

***

 

Primaris are not competitive as an army. Please stop making this comment as it's misleading. Normal Classic Marines are much more competitive but it's a moot point.

[CCE1981]

Reading Ishagu’s comments I think really hits the nail on the head. Every “fix” really seams to be putting a bandaid on the core of the problem. The “solutions” to fix shorties, are really just attempts to fix symptoms of what is basically wrong with the codex without actually fixing what is really wrong. I still do believe that Marines need base 2 wounds but Space Marine shorties need to be redesigned from the ground up instead of the band aids that they have been given. Combine units that are essentially the same, i.e. Veterans, Sternguard, Vanguard; or all the Terminator variants. Even dare I say drop entire units that just aren’t relevant. Drop non relevant / duplicate gear, just to name a few places to start.

[Ishagu]

I'm response to Idaho:

 

Actually Primaris are currently performing better than most regular Marine lists.

 

Dual Repulsor lists are having limited success with Hellblasters as core infantry. A Primaris focused Ultramarines list with two Repulsors recently won a decent sized tournament - a list actually similar to what I run. You're seeing Aggressors put to great effect in Raven Guard lists as they are one of the most effective options for clearing out screens - 5 models can put out over 100 shots. Nothing else in the codex does that for under 200 points.

 

Saying they aren't competitive is a bit misleading. They are as competitive, or more so than Regular Marines, and if it wasn't for Scouts you wouldn't really see any regular Astartes in competitive play. Aggressors, Inceptors, Hellblasters and Intercessors on the other hand all have a place in ICT and ETC lists.

 

I won 3 games, drew 1 and lost 1 at a 60 man ITC tournament running pure Primaris. I only lost to a Dark Eldar army as they are super efficient with Raveger and flyer Spam.

[Panzer]

I guess that depends on the army. For Blood Angels for example using the BA specific non-Primaris units is the much more competetive choice. Intercessors as Troop choice are fine but for your reserves you want Deathcompany and/or Sanguinary Guard. If then there's still some room for reserves left then of course Inceptors.

 

Also Primaris characters suck. There it's basically the exact opposite.

While it's a good thing that Primaris units have very specific gear that gives them a clear role on the board without stepping on another units toes (for the most part ... of course there are things like Hellblaster and Plasma Inceptors ... or Intercessors and Carbine Reivers), with HQ it should be the other way around. There you want all the options to customize them properly. Especially Captains and Lieutenants but also Chaplains and Librarians could use some more options unique to them. That's something non-Primaris HQs do way better.

[Ishagu]

Blood Angels are a different case, but they have unique units and strategems not available to Vanilla Marines. But yeah, they generally perform well.

 

The HQs definitely suck. I typically run Techmarines lol

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not saying competitive Marines is a thing at all. But apart from one build (Hellblasters spam, Guilliman, 2 Repulsors and the Standard of the Emperor Ascendant) Primaris armies are weak.

[Tommytheone]

Hi Guys, 

 

I started 8th endition this January after about 8 years of break. I used to play Tyranids back in 3rd and 4th edition. This time I chose to start fresh and since I didn't want to spend too much time (due to lack of) I decided to collect my all time favourite chapter, the Dark Angels. I have played a few games and participated in some local tournaments and overall I quite like playing the First Legion. 

 

I do, however, agree with all of you that Space Marines are not what I remembered them to be. I didn't go through the 15 pages of thread (what would you expect from a traitor ;) ) and I don't know if this was mentioned before, so sorry if it was. To me, the biggest problem of the space marines simply is the change in AP rules. Space marines went from having a 3+ armour save against basically every weapon except your plasma, melta's and lascanon to getting a 4+ or 5+ against a lot of weapons out there. The survivability of marines versus autocanons, necron weapons and such is terribly low.

 

Now, in a vacuum, this doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. I mean, other armies suffer the same penalities afterall. But, other armies never relied on a 3+ save to survive. Horde armies could not care less about this since they can field huge blobs of troops. Eldars and specifically custodes have great invul saves. Also there is no more concept of wound allocation so one dude with a 3+ invul can tank all the incoming shoots for his bros which I think is a bit ridiculous. Looking at the meta, the top tier armies are hordes with low armour saves, some elite armies with lots of invul saves or feel no pains etc, simply because their pay for what they are getting 90% of the time while the SM pay for stats that are only relevant 30% of the time.

 

Now of course changing the entire way AP works is complete non sense but I do think that an extra wound only to the basic bolter bro (and devastators and so on) would go a long way into making them the saviour of humanity again. Also units like painboyz, or the praetoran vexilius (that banner that gives a 5++ to all imperium units within 9') sound get a huge price increase. A 4 point model with a 5++.... just think about it...

 

Anyways, enough ranting, hope this was useful in some way :) 

 

Cheers,

Tommy

[Marshal Arthur]

Good points made by both sides. Classic Marines are a bloated product line in some aspects. However, some of that bloat comes from variants of armour like in Terminator Armour and multiple vehicles.

 

You could kill that bloat in one go by having 3 Vehicle chassis that buy weapons. Don't include transports and you still reduce 8 Heavy support choices to 3.

 

You can do the same with Vanguard and Sternguard.

 

Primaris separated from Classic is actually better for both types of Marines. Primaris get more stuff that focusses on their army and classic can be given more character in any plot direct they wish and get supported how they deserve.

 

Make the armies distinct.

 

***

 

Primaris are not competitive as an army. Please stop making this comment as it's misleading. Normal Classic Marines are much more competitive but it's a moot point.

I like this. Just make a veteran unit that can be equipped with special issue boltguns or jump packs and a bunch of weapon options or even given terminator armor.

[Captain Idaho]

Well most of us had ideas to fix such things but for the most part it's considered quite radical.

 

I like things like Power Armour (including Terminators) ignoring the first AP of any weapon but there are plenty of suggestions.

[Panzer]

Hi Guys, 

 

I started 8th endition this January after about 8 years of break. I used to play Tyranids back in 3rd and 4th edition. This time I chose to start fresh and since I didn't want to spend too much time (due to lack of) I decided to collect my all time favourite chapter, the Dark Angels. I have played a few games and participated in some local tournaments and overall I quite like playing the First Legion. 

 

I do, however, agree with all of you that Space Marines are not what I remembered them to be. I didn't go through the 15 pages of thread (what would you expect from a traitor ) and I don't know if this was mentioned before, so sorry if it was. To me, the biggest problem of the space marines simply is the change in AP rules. Space marines went from having a 3+ armour save against basically every weapon except your plasma, melta's and lascanon to getting a 4+ or 5+ against a lot of weapons out there. The survivability of marines versus autocanons, necron weapons and such is terribly low.

 

Now, in a vacuum, this doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. I mean, other armies suffer the same penalities afterall. But, other armies never relied on a 3+ save to survive. Horde armies could not care less about this since they can field huge blobs of troops. Eldars and specifically custodes have great invul saves. Also there is no more concept of wound allocation so one dude with a 3+ invul can tank all the incoming shoots for his bros which I think is a bit ridiculous. Looking at the meta, the top tier armies are hordes with low armour saves, some elite armies with lots of invul saves or feel no pains etc, simply because their pay for what they are getting 90% of the time while the SM pay for stats that are only relevant 30% of the time.

 

Now of course changing the entire way AP works is complete non sense but I do think that an extra wound only to the basic bolter bro (and devastators and so on) would go a long way into making them the saviour of humanity again. Also units like painboyz, or the praetoran vexilius (that banner that gives a 5++ to all imperium units within 9') sound get a huge price increase. A 4 point model with a 5++.... just think about it...

 

Anyways, enough ranting, hope this was useful in some way

 

Cheers,

Tommy

 

It's true that they're less durable against regular anti-infantry weaponry now, however that's not quite true on a competetive level considering during 7th people used to focus on grav weaponry and similar which completely ignored their armor anyway. ;)

 

A 5++ is much less interesting for Marines than you might think. Aside from Plasma they'd usually have a 5+ or better armor anyway so the 5++ would be wasted. One of the problems Terminators currently have with their 5++.

And a second wound is just not going to happen now that we have Primaris Marines with two wounds.

[Ishagu]

5++ has a limited impact, as stated above. You can't change the profile of Marine without affecting about 30 units from multiple books from both the Imperium and Chaos so we shouldn't be expecting that to happen. Point adjustments will be the best we can hope for in the short to medium term.