Codex Space Marines Amendments

[Kallas]

Ah yes I wasn't trying to say that marines are good at melee now but as you say;

 

In the background, Tactical and Assault Marines should absolutely be melee capable; given the rules we actually have they are melee-averse.

 

Yeah, definitely. I'd very much like to see Tactical and Assault Marines able to jump into melee without it being a terrible choice against 90%* of units out there.

 

 

*Exaggeration, of course

[Panzer]

 

 

What are marines supposed to be?

 

Uhm close to mid range shooty as the heavy armor and lots of rapid fire at ~12", melta, flamer, bikes, jump pack infantry and terminators indicate? Didn't think that's something needing explanation. ^^

Ok so the question was meant to be ambiguous. For you to realise that how you see marines is not necessarily how everyone sees them. I personally see marines as all-rounders. Jack of all trades master of none. A stat line to prop them up so they can do whatever they want. Tactical flexibility being the tag line. You are shying away from melee but from my point of view them being "melee capable" is very different to "melee focused".

 

 

Nothing you said contradicts what I said. Of course when your main focus is close to mid range shooting your guys should also be melee capable and you of course also need long ranged support or else you'll have a bad time. That however doesn't change the fact that 90% of what Marines do is close to mid ranged shooting. Crunch AND fluff wise.

[Ipsen]

 

 

 

What are marines supposed to be?

 

Uhm close to mid range shooty as the heavy armor and lots of rapid fire at ~12", melta, flamer, bikes, jump pack infantry and terminators indicate? Didn't think that's something needing explanation. ^^

Ok so the question was meant to be ambiguous. For you to realise that how you see marines is not necessarily how everyone sees them. I personally see marines as all-rounders. Jack of all trades master of none. A stat line to prop them up so they can do whatever they want. Tactical flexibility being the tag line. You are shying away from melee but from my point of view them being "melee capable" is very different to "melee focused".

 

 

Nothing you said contradicts what I said. Of course when your main focus is close to mid range shooting your guys should also be melee capable and you of course also need long ranged support or else you'll have a bad time. That however doesn't change the fact that 90% of what Marines do is close to mid ranged shooting. Crunch AND fluff wise.

 

 

Why does a chaplain need to be taken in a gunline? But I give up. As you like dude.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

What are marines supposed to be?

 

Uhm close to mid range shooty as the heavy armor and lots of rapid fire at ~12", melta, flamer, bikes, jump pack infantry and terminators indicate? Didn't think that's something needing explanation. ^^

Ok so the question was meant to be ambiguous. For you to realise that how you see marines is not necessarily how everyone sees them. I personally see marines as all-rounders. Jack of all trades master of none. A stat line to prop them up so they can do whatever they want. Tactical flexibility being the tag line. You are shying away from melee but from my point of view them being "melee capable" is very different to "melee focused".

 

 

Nothing you said contradicts what I said. Of course when your main focus is close to mid range shooting your guys should also be melee capable and you of course also need long ranged support or else you'll have a bad time. That however doesn't change the fact that 90% of what Marines do is close to mid ranged shooting. Crunch AND fluff wise.

 

 

Why does a chaplain need to be taken in a gunline? But I give up. As you like dude.

 

 

I never said you NEED to take a chaplain in a gunline. It's one of the most iconic units in a Marine army and it should be a useful option for shooty as well as melee units. Probably more for shooty units even considering that Marine armies aren't pure melee.

Maybe read what people were talking about and ask a proper question and you'll get a satisfying answer.

[Ipsen]

Think maybe that it doesn't translate fully, or that text doesn't convey emphasis well and that i don't feel like writing an essay.

 

 

It's one of the most iconic units in a Marine army and it should be a useful option for shooty as well as melee units.

 

The same would go for the chaplain. Why would a gunline take him over a captain, lieutenant or psyker which all have much better buffs or are generally good on their own.

 

Why? I was only ever asking you to elaborate on why the above should be the case.

[Servant of Dante]

Personally, I agree that chaplains are really cool, iconic models and should have at least some use in shooting-focused marine armies. However, I do like that they provide an extra buff to melee focused armies, so I think their aura should remain less general than, say, that of a Captain.

 

If assault focused marine lists aren't effective (which they don't seem to be) then the chaplain will never see play as it stands, as those points can be better spent on characters that buff shooting.

 

Alternatively, making the Chaplain's aura very powerful in melee (+1A and re-roll hit and would rolls in the Fight phase as Ishagu suggested) might make them worthwhile by essentially making all nearby units a viable counter-charge unit, or at least making marines harder to bowl over in melee. This would make them useful for protecting a gunline against a melee army, and would also make those dedicated assault units marines do have (VV and Assault marines) moderately more useful, if you stuck a jump pack on the Chaplain.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Deep breaths, folks.

[Ishagu]

Chaplains aren't just for melee though. In the lore they accompany all sorts of squads.

[Panzer]

Think maybe that it doesn't translate fully, or that text doesn't convey emphasis well and that i don't feel like writing an essay.

 

 

It's one of the most iconic units in a Marine army and it should be a useful option for shooty as well as melee units.

 

The same would go for the chaplain. Why would a gunline take him over a captain, lieutenant or psyker which all have much better buffs or are generally good on their own.

 

 

Why? I was only ever asking you to elaborate on why the above should be the case.

Then let me ask you something in return instead since you didn't bring any arguments yourself so far.

Why should they not? Why limit them to melee buffing so you'd never see them in most Marine armies which would go completely against their fluff?

[Ishagu]

If you wanna make them fluffy they should grant stuff like morale immunity, charge re rolls, extra movement, extra attacks.

[Dracos]

+1 attack is pretty potent and the 5+ overwatch ideal was to give them something shooty but not OP. The idea is Chappy whips up the boys for a suicide attack (which is likely when Marines assault) and the other is Holding the Line type stuff and knocking an extra guy out off a unit that’s assaulting them means there likely in better shape for the counter assault

 

 

I don’t think we will ever see the rerolls to hit and wound. Infringing on the other HQ buffs there

[Panzer]

Yeah I understand the intend behind the 5+ overwatch, I'm just saying that it's a much less interesting buff than you might think. Not super strong and way too situational to include in any battle plans which automatically makes it a worse option than other buffing HQs.

[Ipsen]

 

Think maybe that it doesn't translate fully, or that text doesn't convey emphasis well and that i don't feel like writing an essay.

 

It's one of the most iconic units in a Marine army and it should be a useful option for shooty as well as melee units.

 

The same would go for the chaplain. Why would a gunline take him over a captain, lieutenant or psyker which all have much better buffs or are generally good on their own.

 

Why? I was only ever asking you to elaborate on why the above should be the case.

Then let me ask you something in return instead since you didn't bring any arguments yourself so far.

Why should they not? Why limit them to melee buffing so you'd never see them in most Marine armies which would go completely against their fluff?

 

 

Maybe because chaplains have been melee combat multipliers for as long as I can remember, giving units rules like zealot or liturgies of battle. There was a time when you'd always take a chaplain over a captain because chapter masters and captains didn't provide any buffs at all. They were just melee stat sticks. If a chaplain becomes an all round choice, useful to gunlines, why would anyone take a captain?

 

Straight form the codex;

"When war calls, a Chaplain leads from the fore, rejoicing in the righteous slaughter of his enemies, all the while rendering thunderous praise to the beloved Emperor of Mankind and his Primarch. He chants the liturgies of battle with every breath, punctuating his oration with strikes from his crozius arcanum. Through example and devotion, the Chaplain exhorts his fellow battle brothers to the pinnacle of their dedication."

 

Pretty sure that's just been copy pasted in every codex since, I think, 4th.

 

Also you keep making this point, that melee buffs are useless to shooty space marine lists but at the same time saying you want them to be up close. I disagree with you. I would suggest that you can't achieve close/mid range shooting without buffing marines abysmal close combat performance.

[Dracos]

Yeah I understand the intend behind the 5+ overwatch, I'm just saying that it's a much less interesting buff than you might think. Not super strong and way too situational to include in any battle plans which automatically makes it a worse option than other buffing HQs.

I get the Overwatch is weak. Useful but more for flavor. The +1 attack though beats the hell out any reroll of 1’s either the Captain or Lieutenant has ... imo. I’m a heavy on the shooty type of player but I’d have to do a rethink for a couple units if that became an option.

[Panzer]

 

 

Think maybe that it doesn't translate fully, or that text doesn't convey emphasis well and that i don't feel like writing an essay.

 

It's one of the most iconic units in a Marine army and it should be a useful option for shooty as well as melee units.

 

The same would go for the chaplain. Why would a gunline take him over a captain, lieutenant or psyker which all have much better buffs or are generally good on their own.

 

Why? I was only ever asking you to elaborate on why the above should be the case.

Then let me ask you something in return instead since you didn't bring any arguments yourself so far.

Why should they not? Why limit them to melee buffing so you'd never see them in most Marine armies which would go completely against their fluff?

 

 

Maybe because chaplains have been melee combat multipliers for as long as I can remember, giving units rules like zealot or liturgies of battle. There was a time when you'd always take a chaplain over a captain because chapter masters and captains didn't provide any buffs at all. They were just melee stat sticks. If a chaplain becomes an all round choice, useful to gunlines, why would anyone take a captain?

 

Straight form the codex;

"When war calls, a Chaplain leads from the fore, rejoicing in the righteous slaughter of his enemies, all the while rendering thunderous praise to the beloved Emperor of Mankind and his Primarch. He chants the liturgies of battle with every breath, punctuating his oration with strikes from his crozius arcanum. Through example and devotion, the Chaplain exhorts his fellow battle brothers to the pinnacle of their dedication."

 

Pretty sure that's just been copy pasted in every codex since, I think, 4th.

 

Also you keep making this point, that melee buffs are useless to shooty space marine lists but at the same time saying you want them to be up close. I disagree with you. I would suggest that you can't achieve close/mid range shooting without buffing marines abysmal close combat performance.

 

 

Doing something the same way because it has always been that way is really no argument. If we go with that then we can scratch most of the things we listed in this thread. We're trying to think about how to make things better, not how to repeat what's been done in the past.

 

Why would anyone take a Captain in that case? Because ideally both would offer different kind of buffs to your guys instead of doing the same thing but one being better obviously. Come one, it's really not that hard a concept.

 

The problem with buffing an armies melee capability when their aim is to stay at close to mid range to shoot is that you pay points for a backup plan you ideally don't want to use. It's not the worst thing in history but it's not good either. You don't include things to use in case things go wrong. You include things to make sure things go right in the first place. Hence why people take Captains over Chaplains and why Chaplains need something else.

[Panzer]

 

Yeah I understand the intend behind the 5+ overwatch, I'm just saying that it's a much less interesting buff than you might think. Not super strong and way too situational to include in any battle plans which automatically makes it a worse option than other buffing HQs.

I get the Overwatch is weak. Useful but more for flavor. The +1 attack though beats the hell out any reroll of 1’s either the Captain or Lieutenant has ... imo. I’m a heavy on the shooty type of player but I’d have to do a rethink for a couple units if that became an option.

 

 

The +1 attack beats the Captains and Lieutenants aura ... if you end up in melee. Where you usually don't want to end up if things go right. Also I'm not saying anything against this part of the buff. It's fine. He should have something for units (aka most) who don't want to be in melee as well tho imo.

The 5+ overwatch is flavourful, yes. It's not a good rule for this army crunch-wise tho and so you end up paying points for something you don't really want all that much.

[Kallas]

+1A and 5+ OW is a pretty good buff for a. Close Quarters shooting army with decent stats (ie, WS3+, S/T4).

 

With 2A, or 3A for Primaris, they are actually able to make a significant dent in enemy units, which means that the Close Quarters style of Marines would be reinforced:

- Move in close

- Shoot a unit

- Charge it to finish it/another to soften two units

 

5+ OW makes them a less tempting target for bogging down. At 1A/6+ OW, a 5-man Bolter Tactical Squad does, vs GEQs (for just bogging down):

Overwatch: 10*0.166*0.66*0.66= 0.72 failed saves

Melee: 7 (Chainsword Sgt)*0.8778 (reroll failed hits)*0.66*0.66= 2.68 failed saves

Total = 3.4 kills

 

With 2A/5+ OW:

OW: 10*0.33*0.66*0.66= 1.44fs

Melee: 12*0.8778*0.66*0.67= 4.59fs

Total = 6.03 kills

 

If the +1A/5+ OW buff is on top of the current Chaplain benefit, then it'd be a solid choice for a CQB style Marine army.

 

 

For reference, a nearby Captain, Lieutenant and Chaplain would result in:

OW: 10*0.385*0.7656*0.66= 1.95fs

Melee: 12*0.8778*0.7656*0.66= 5.3fs

Total = 7.25 kills

 

So there's still reason to bring the Captain and Lieutenant, as they buff the active shooting and Overwatch (and melee wounding, for the Lt). Plus, they're more auras that can be moved to different areas of the battlefield as needs must.

[Panzer]

Mathhammer is all good and fine, however that always assumes that the unit is getting charged ... which simply doesn't happen most of the time. 40k is still mainly a shooting game. As I tried to show with my T'au Sept example. They get MUCH more use from 5+ overwatch due other additional rules and they can do even less in melee and it's still not considered to be the go-to Sept because it's simply not that important to have good overwatch. It's just too situational and doesn't add anything to the actual strengths of your army. It's always better to improve on your strengths than trying to cover for a situation that might occure every few games and it makes for a more interesting list building as well.

[Captain Idaho]

In 3rd edition there was some stupendous fluff about the Battle of Maccragge in White Dwarf. The Tyranids were amassing for the first assault and the morale up and down the defence lines was cracking, until an Ultramarine Chaplain started up the Battle Hym of the Imperium which saw the resolve of the troopers strengthen, Marines and PDF joining in.

 

I always liked a Hym the Chaplains can sing as a army wide boost. Perhaps a selection of 4 or so that are used for a turn once a game each.

[Dracos]

... and for Black Templar those effects become cumulative. Kind of like the Drukhari thing (sorry can’t look up what it’s really called right now)

 

I don’t know where that’s going but sure like the flavor of it.

 

 

sfPanzer: I totally see your point about increasing point effectiveness. I’m okay with some things being situational though because I believe there often are ways to create those situations if one wants. Different perspectives of how the game is actually played I suspect ... and I just thought about how my idea buffs the hell out of Aggressors ... which I’m not sure they need. So yeah pondering. :)

[Panzer]

Battle Hyms sounds like an interesting and for Marines unique concept I'd like to explore more. It also highlights their nature as religious fanatics and not just being inspirering leader like Captains.

[justicarius6]

What are marines supposed to be?

I'd say that marines are, as previously mentioned, capable in all aspects of warfare with certain chapters putting more emphasis on certain aspects over others.

 

Right now we have decent (not powerful, but decent) long range shooting, decent mid-range shooting and pretty abysmal melee. For marines to be what they are fluffwise they need to be buffed far more in close combat than anywhere else.

 

Once all three aspects are up to "decent" then the chapter tactics need addressing to match their fluff and emphasise one of those aspects to make it "great".

[Race Bannon]

Guys, although not a rule, please refrain from quoting 5+ dudes.

 

Save the cheerleader, save the internet.

[Wargamer]

For as long as I've played Marines were jack of all trades, masters of none. This is a bit of a problem on the table, as if they're not great at anything they feel bland and are never really playing to their strengths.

 

I think the reason they're this way was to allow them to adapt on the fly - if the enemy forces combat, they can do combat. If the enemy stays at range, they can do range. The problem is that without a way to exploit the enemy's weakness, this well-rounded nature isn't the boon it's meant to be.

[Ishagu]

Marines should be the best at Apha Striking and Mid Range shooting. The Jack of all trades thing doesn't really play out in the current game, I agree with that.