Codex Space Marines Amendments

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The Tome is an issue because our psychic power selection is lackluster, especially in comparison to what other codices have. If we've got more, better powers than the Tome will increase in utility and thus become more popular.

[justicarius6]

Blade of the Emperor just needs D2 and it'd be usable. As it is now it's beaten by a mastercrafted power sword.

 

Tome of Malcador would be useful IF the librarian powers were useful. So if powers get a boost then the Tome doesn't need changing.

[Captain Idaho]

The Burning Blade would work for me if it at least did D3 wounds. Or stayed the same but did a Mortal Wound for every hit roll of a 6 or something.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The Burning Blade would work for me if it at least did D3 wounds. Or stayed the same but did a Mortal Wound for every hit roll of a 6 or something.

I'm leery of adding a mortal wound function to the sword because that raises a comparison to the Murder Sword, and would make the Burning Blade a lot more useful in comparison. Right now, the Blade has an extra point of Strength and an extra point of AP in comparison; the balance there is the Mortal Wound delivery. The last thing we probably want is to upset that balance.

[justicarius6]

How about leave the burning blade as D1 but ignore invulnerable saves. I would definitely get behind that.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The Crusader's Helm is pretty good, and I like it for Templars. My only wish is that the aura range increase also applied to Warlord traits. At the moment I can put it on a Marshal and re-roll 1s within 9 inches, but if the Marshal also has Storm of Fire that only affects units within 6.

[Captain Idaho]

How about leave the burning blade as D1 but ignore invulnerable saves. I would definitely get behind that.

I actually really like this.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We have lots of solid relics:

 

Teeth of Terra

Vengeance Fist

Santic Halo

Shield Eternal

Wrath

Helm

[Ishagu]

Yeah the relics are good. No real complaints from me.

It's just the burning blade that lets us down in truth. The libby tome would be valuable if the powers were better.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I actually think we have some good psychic powers too -

 

Psychic Scourge combined with Smite can net 2d3 mortal wounds (average)

Psychic Fortitude (great vs Smite spam)

Might of Heroes

Veil of Time

Null Zone

[Kallas]

I actually think we have some good psychic powers too -

 

Psychic Scourge combined with Smite can net 2d3 mortal wounds (average)

Psychic Fortitude (great vs Smite spam)

Might of Heroes

Veil of Time

Null Zone

This comes up with depressing frequency.

 

Those aren't bad powers, per se. It's that they're very situational.

 

Veil of Time would be better if we had actually good melee units instead of expensive Veterans that pay a lot for not actually great melee capabilities.

 

Psychic Fortitude is great, if you play against heavy Psychic phases, and choose the right unit to put it on/your opponent doesn't hit other things. Otherwise it's pretty irrelevant.

 

Null Zone would be good of it wasn't both a high Warp Charge and super short range. As is, it's crap because of those severe limitations.

 

Essentially, the Librarius Discipline is niche in application. And that's a huge problem, particularly when there are many solid disciplines with little to no wasted space.

[Ishagu]

I haven't used a librarian in a while, unfortunately. I think you hit the nail on the head - it's simply too situational and might not come into play.

 

Powers like Warp Time or Death Hex have great utility, and you can plan attacks and units around them pro actively, not reactively, even in the list building stage.

 

Null Zone would be a good power but it involves moving your Librarian into touching distance of enemy units, and attempting to cast AFTER you have done do. Either way the risk is massive, pay off not guaranteed and it's situational on top - It's possible the Libby might not ever reach an intended target anyway.

 

I'd love to have a set of powers that would impact my list building and strategy, as it stands an anti psyker assassin or an Inquisitor are better choices for us.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

I actually think we have some good psychic powers too -

 

Psychic Scourge combined with Smite can net 2d3 mortal wounds (average)

Psychic Fortitude (great vs Smite spam)

Might of Heroes

Veil of Time

Null Zone

This comes up with depressing frequency.

 

Those aren't bad powers, per se. It's that they're very situational.

 

Veil of Time would be better if we had actually good melee units instead of expensive Veterans that pay a lot for not actually great melee capabilities.

 

Psychic Fortitude is great, if you play against heavy Psychic phases, and choose the right unit to put it on/your opponent doesn't hit other things. Otherwise it's pretty irrelevant.

 

Null Zone would be good of it wasn't both a high Warp Charge and super short range. As is, it's crap because of those severe limitations.

 

Essentially, the Librarius Discipline is niche in application. And that's a huge problem, particularly when there are many solid disciplines with little to no wasted space.

 

 

 

I am calling bull - Smite and inflicting MWs is never situational. Increasing the stats on a unit is never situational. Rarely is having the ability to shutdown invulnerable saves situational - just the threat of it is a BIG DEAL and can be a game winner.... buuuuuttttt Death Hex is to quote "great utility". ROFLMAO over here.

[Kallas]

I am calling bull - Smite and inflicting MWs is never situational. Increasing the stats on a unit is never situational. Rarely is having the ability to shutdown invulnerable saves situational - just the threat of it is a BIG DEAL and can be a game winner.... buuuuuttttt Death Hex is to quote "great utility". ROFLMAO over here.

I think you missed my point. The effects are useful, but the application is, usually, where Marine powers are let down.

 

Again:

Null Zone, great effect but high WC and short range make it difficult to rely on and hard to actually utilise.

 

Psychic Fortitude, good effect if facing lots of Psychic MW, but can be bypassed by targeting other units, and doesn't defend against debuffs, etc. Still useful, but pretty limited.

 

Veil is ok, but going first when not charging (ie, basically the only application of that part of the power) is not particularly impressive. The charge reroll is fine, but again Marine melee is mediocre.

 

Fury is pure crap.

 

Scourge is fine. It has an extra point of failure over Smite (Ld roll off) but gaind the ability to target, so fairly decent.

 

I also didn't say that Might was bad: it's basically the best Librarius power.

 

Point being: Librarius powers have ok effects, but they're massively hamstrung by WC value/range/general Marine deficiencies.

[Ipsen]

Well i can see where you're coming from in theory but in practice the extra 6 inches for death hex makes a huge difference. Neither librarians nor sorcerers have invulnerable saves so going near something that has an invulnerable save worth removing is an extremely dangerous prospect for said squishy character. I was running a list with a pair of biker librarians at the start of 8th and even with the armour indomitus the poor libby i sent in to pop null zone would pay for it with his life the next turn. Librarians aren't cheap especially with the bike which was absolutely necessary to get in range.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can advance the Libby... never charge him into melee. Null Zone is much more powerful than Death Hex. Burn a CP for a reroll if you really need it.

 

I did not mention Furry of the Ancients - could care less.

 

We have several good ones and most are WC6 which if you are having problems casting well maybe its time to buy some new dice. Just like WLTs and relics you select which ones you need most each game depending on what you are facing.

[Marshal Arthur]

I think the solution to the relative weakness of our psychic powers is quite simple: Abhor the Witch.

[Ipsen]

You can advance the Libby... never charge him into melee. Null Zone is much more powerful than Death Hex. Burn a CP for a reroll if you really need it.

 

7-12" a turn isn't enough to get within 6" and i don't think anyone said to charge with him.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Depends on the location plus he can take a jump pack too .

[Panzer]

Depends on the location plus he can take a jump pack too .

 

Aka it's situational and still risky due short range. Case closed. :D

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you have a jump pack it shouldn’t be an issue.

[chapter master 454]

The space marine libby powers can be summed up as thus: "Here's some extra smites to throw down range...I mean...what else is worth casting unless you have smashmaster?"

 

So here is the problems with the powers:

 

Might of Heroes would be FAR better if it could buff squads. Maybe make it a +1 strength buff + a 5+++. However that is pipe dreaming and this power is purely for smashmaster or gimmicks such as be able to make a T10 land raider! (Excelsior + Salamander Relic. Have fun with lascannons wounding you on 5s!)

 

Veil of Time: em...something about missing the bus...train or something. This power is so late in fact it is ironic because it needs to go back in time and slap the designer who wrote this useless power. Only change needed to this power is to make the effect purely "this unit can move again immediately as if it were the movement phase" and BOOM, fixed. No problem. Otherwise it is too late to help anything or anyone since half the power is literally used a turn later...and we all know how bad needing to wait a turn is (just go over to the adeptus mechancius section and ask about the auto-forge sacristan. Just do it. If you could find a unit with less use than it, I would be impressed).

 

Psychic Scourge and Fury of the Ancients: Aren't you both just smite 2 electric boogaloo? well...not complaining, means at least we have 2 good powers!

 

Psychic Fortress: I mean...it...could be useful...if it granted an invulnerable against range or something. Morale is already a joke in marines (we barely take units above sizes of 5 AND we have ATSKNF) so half of this power feels so tacked on you can see the brass thumbtack they used to put it on with.

 

Null Zone: WC too high, situational and far FAR too short range. Certainly I would contend this power does have use and can be applied and would be very respectable on the Smashmaster Libby if you felt so inclined. Not bad however it just has far too many short comings to be worth anything ranging from the WC cost to range. A real shame because I do like this power.

 

Not to mention regarding librarians you got to pay for them through the teeth, lack an invulnerable unless you want them in terminator armour and just in general lack any real decent place to be. Their powers say "I can buff my allies and strip the enemies of any defence" but their actual effect says "please don't ask me to do much, I'm here because I was told to". I feel like they are taking the brunt of 7th edition kneecapping because of invisibility.

They can do work but only as Smite Gatling guns. Ether go smashmaster with the usual or take 2 of them, give one scourge and the other fury and just have them go Smite Smite, Scourge Fury and throw mortal wounds around with them. Certainly not a bad plan and can work for knocking some wounds off enemies but certainly falls short of their design brief.

 

Want to just make sure this is clear: they aren't bad but HO boy they are far from anywhere near good. Again, sadly just feels "first codex" woes really. Hopefully in the future we will see codex updates that might bring some of the less popular units into the light.

 

In regards to Vanguard Veterans getting some flakk there, I saw that, they aren't bad melee. Strap some lightning claws pairs and hammer+shields on them and they can knock any target down fairly quick, especially with the stratagem.

 

I think that is something I want to touch on here as well to maybe knock some ideas around: maybe look at the issue regarding sternguard and vanguard just being better units in everyway to field over any other infantry unit that isn't primaris in terms of getting things done. Like, why field tacticals when you could field sternguard or intercessors (latter being better no argument) and why field assaults over vanguard? 

Personally I feel Assaults should be given access to special weapons more liberally.

 

Then again, I suppose I could make a laundry list of changes I would make to the codex and get nowhere fast.

Those are my thoughts, take 'em, leave 'em. Use 'em for target practice.

[General Strike]

What are the percentage increases in survivability of T4 Armor 3+ vs T3 Armor 5+? Then we can compare the points and that difference?

[Kallas]

What are the percentage increases in survivability of T4 Armor 3+ vs T3 Armor 5+? Then we can compare the points and that difference?

MEQ (T4/3+; 13pts)

GEQ (T3/5+; 4pts)

Cost difference is that the MEQ is 325% the cost of the GEQ.

 

vs BS3+ 4/0/1:

MEQ: 0.1089 failed saves per shot

GEQ: 0.2875 fsps

- that's 9.1 shots to kill the MEQ, and 3.5 shots to kill GEQ.

- +160% resilience increase

 

vs BS4+ 3/0/1:

MEQ: 0.0545fsps

GEQ: 0.165fsps

- that's 18.3 shots to kill the MEQ and 6.1 to kill the GEQ.

- +200% resilience increase

 

vs BS3+ 7/-3/1 // 8/-3/2:

MEQ: 0.363fsps // 0.458fsps

GEQ: 0.55fsps

- that's 2.75/2.2 to kill MEQ, and 1.8 to kill GEQ.

- +1

52.8% resilience increase // +22.2% resilience increase.

 

vs BS4+ 7/-3/1 // 8/-3/2:

MEQ: 0.275fsps // 0.347fsps

GEQ: 0.417fsps

- 3.6/2.9 to kill MEQ; 2.4 to kill GEQ.

- +50% resilience increase // +20.8% increase.

 

 

[[NB: It's actually preferable for MEQs to face MEQ Plasma, since MEQ Plasma cost is much higher proportionally (26 vs 11) and kills at a worse ratio than GEQ Plasma!

 

2.4 overcharged GEQ Plasma is 12 shots (ie, the nearest whole number), or 6 guys (66 points), which gets an average of 5 kills (12/2.4 = 5). The equivalent amount of kills for MEQs (5/0.458 = 10.9 shots) costs 130pts (for 5 MEQ Plasma, which is actually less than 5 on average, but for simplicity!) And then the reverse, of course, is that a GEQ Plasma is only 11pts, making those losses far easier to absorb (plus basic GEQs are far cheaper) ]]

 

 

That's Bolters, Lasguns and Plasma Guns. In terms of resilience per shot, Marines are better, but once you factor in the two additional GEQs, GEQs are more resilient.

 

Here's the simple truth: one shot can kill one MEQ or GEQ. One shot cannot kill three GEQs.

 

 

Edit:

Added percentage increases for survivability and the relative cost difference.

[Ishagu]

Yeah the cost is much higher than the increase of survivability and offensive capability.

 

Either cheap models need a price hike, or Marines need a big drop.