Codex Space Marines Amendments

[Kallas]

Yeah the cost is much higher than the increase of survivability and offensive capability.

 

Either cheap models need a price hike, or Marines need a big drop.

Or a relevant increase in capabilities (ie, mord Wounds/Toughness/Output).

 

I highly doubt we'll actually see anything resembling the necessary steps, however. Maybe I'm just overall cynical.

[Ishagu]

One problem with the game is time keeping. Imo the cheap units need a hike in order to both create balance and to make the experience better.

[Beta galactosidase]

Can you imagine how much faster games would be with 6-7 pt guardsmen and 7-8pt boyz?  You'd need to increase power for infantry units as a class, but it'd be a huge relief when carrying an army case somewhere and finishing a game in time.

[Ishagu]

Yeah instead of 140 infantry models you'd have 80/90 lol

[General Strike]

Or gw needs to release movement trays, which seems more likely. Lol. Thank you for doing the math for me, I'm terrible at percentages.

[Panzer]

I honestly think the AM tanks with their dozens of different secondary and tertiary weapons take up a LOT more time than their infantry.

[lythari]

Interesting to see the space marine points in kill team (from youtube review videos).  It is a different game system so i'm not sure how much we can read into it, but the mechanics seems similar enough that maybe we can make some inferences for 40K.  I wasn't able to get to my FLGS on the weekend so I have no idea how this compares to other faction kill teams:

 

Intercessor 15

Intercessor Gunner 16

Intercessor Sergeant 16

Reiver 16

Reiver Sergeant 17

Scout 10

Scout Gunner 11

Scout Sergeant 11

Tactical Marine 12

Tactical Marine Gunner 13

Tactical Marine Sergeant 13


Chainsword 0

Combat knife 0

Power fist 4

Power sword 2


Auspex 1

Auxiliary grenade launcher 0

Camo cloak 1

Grapnel launcher 1

Grav-chute 1


Auto bolt rifle 0

Boltgun 0

Combi-flamer 3

Combi-grav 2

Combi-melta 3

Combi-plasma 4

Flamer 3

Grav-gun 2

Grav-pistol 1

Heavy bolter 3

Meltagun 3

Missile launcher 5

Plasma gun 3

Plasma pistol 1

Sniper rifle 1

Stalker bolt rifle 0

[Panzer]

Yeah it's interesting but lets be fair that wouldn't be enough at all. 1p less for Tacticals will hardly make a difference, they're still no 12ppm worth in regular 40k.

The 15ppm for Intercessors however would be much more interesting. That's basically an additional Intercessor per squad or in other words: if you take 5 squads you get the 6th for free compared to now (hello Brigade detachment).

[Guest MistaGav]

I can't see the weapons costs making their way into the main game as these look super cheap but it would be great if they did. 15 for Intercessors and 10 for scouts seems reasonable but Tacs should be 11. Maybe making the weapons super cheap will go a way to making Tac marines more viable.

[justicarius6]

This might be counter-intuitive to the thread but I think Scouts and Tacticals should be priced the same (with a reduction to the cost of both and also a reduction to the cost of camo-cloaks at the same time).

 

Same statline

 

Tacticals get access to a wider range of specials and heavies, scouts get access to a melee option (albeit quite limited), shotguns and sniper rifles.

 

Tacticals get a 3+ save, but scouts get their infiltrate special rule.

 

As I see it as long as tacticals and scouts are the same price people will always pick scouts.

[Panzer]

Depending on how the final version of the reserves rules will look I'd actually say Scouts should be more expensive than Tacticals considering claiming objectives before the game starts and denying your opponent deep strike and potentially infiltration space is HUGE. Way better than slightly better armor and some more Special/Heavy options (Heavy Bolter, arguably one of the best choices currently is an option for Scouts anyway).

[Schlitzaf]

Or we go back to 5th and Scouts hit on 4+.

[Ishagu]

Tacticals should cost less than Scions.

 

If we want Marine infantry to have any relevance we need to see Tacticals at 8 points, Scouts at 9 and Intercessors at 12 points.

 

Unless of course, we want Guardsmen and Cultists to remain the best troops in the setting.

Remember, an Imperial Knight pays less than 13 points per T8 wound with a 3+ save and an invul built in!!

[Servant of Dante]

And then you’d have Sisters paying more than marines (9 points base) for an inferior stat line . . .

 

I mean is a Battle Sister Squad really 1ppm better than a Tactical Squad? Maybe (I guess they can get a special and a heavy weapon at any size) but I still hear people say they still only get played in a Sisters lists because they have no choice.

 

I’m not a huge fan of the point deflation we’ve seen, not because things shouldn’t go down in points relative to other units but because we’re running out of room :D

 

You could multiply every point cost in the game by 2, then start balancing from there with the extra space that provides. The simple multiplication wouldn’t change relative costs a all of course, as long as it was applied to every cost in the game.

[Ishagu]

Sisters should be 8 also

[redmapa]

Making everything cheaper wont fix anything and it will screw a lot of other armies which will require even more work just to fix one codex, the game is already a bit too crowded with miniatures and making armies bigger over time will lead to the path of WHFB where armies required so many models it was impossible to start an army.

 

Space Marines should be worth their cost, not be cheaper, and you can do that by simply adding better chapter tactics/stratagems and honestly I feel that Primaris are what marines should have always been so if GW continues supporting that line then that will also help SM.

[Ishagu]

That's all we can hope for, especially with CA on the horizon.

 

There won't be sweeping changes to profiles for some time. I'd rather see lots of Marine bodies on the table over no marines anywhere.

[Wargamer]

Unless everything else is going to get more expensive (it won't), Marines do need to go down.

 

Making Marines cheaper will make an individual Marine better than, say, a Scion. However, Scions have additional rules / weapon options that means their unit is still viable in its own way. Plus, if you factor in potential tournament restrictions (ie: one Codex per player) then that would further fix the potential problems.

[Ishagu]

Yeah Scions have a worse statline but better offence, access to orders and the ability to teleport in which is incredibly useful. Far stronger on the tabletop than a regular Marine.

[Panzer]

8p sounds way too cheap to me.

Anyway we're kinda going in circles. I think we already had that topic and agreed that ideally we'd prefer making Marines worth their cost rather than reducing their cost this drastically. ^^

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed we did. This topic has already set out that changes to things like points are for discussion elsewhere on the whole.

 

I am confident GW will work hard on giving us (and other factions) changes that needed once the Orks and Space Wolves Codex books are done. After all, GW will still want to release new models and this will see dataslates for download and supplements, plus revisiting older Codex books will be achievable once the work schedule of existing Codex books has been done.

 

Lots of people ARE calling for a new Codex or amendments for Space Marines. Even Bell of Lost Souls are talking about it. GW themselves seem to want to push giant Space Marines further so they will probably get the Stormcast treatment and have a dozen new releases whilst everything else doesn't, so we'll see a new Primaris Codex too.

 

I have confidence in this GW to deliver.

[Guest MistaGav]

Scions can take 2 Meltas, Plasma, Flamer or Hot Shot volley gun for every 5 models so out of 10, 4 can take them. If Tactical squads could do the same with the KT points costs that would make them pretty powerful IMO but replace HSVG with a Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher instead.

[Ishagu]

But that's basically making them into Devastators so it's not really a change I'm in favour of.

 

Whilst updated rules might be the most thematic way to make Astartes relevant, I think fair points will have an impact on the tabletop that's just as positive and it's something that's actually likely to happen. 8/9 is where they should be.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Indeed we did. This topic has already set out that changes to things like points are for discussion elsewhere on the whole.

 

I am confident GW will work hard on giving us (and other factions) changes that needed once the Orks and Space Wolves Codex books are done. After all, GW will still want to release new models and this will see dataslates for download and supplements, plus revisiting older Codex books will be achievable once the work schedule of existing Codex books has been done.

 

Lots of people ARE calling for a new Codex or amendments for Space Marines. Even Bell of Lost Souls are talking about it. GW themselves seem to want to push giant Space Marines further so they will probably get the Stormcast treatment and have a dozen new releases whilst everything else doesn't, so we'll see a new Primaris Codex too.

 

I have confidence in this GW to deliver.

 

Me too !

[Lemondish]

I can't see the weapons costs making their way into the main game as these look super cheap but it would be great if they did. 15 for Intercessors and 10 for scouts seems reasonable but Tacs should be 11. Maybe making the weapons super cheap will go a way to making Tac marines more viable.

 

Would certainly be great, particularly since they're already pretty limited on number of models that can carry them (minus those Vet squads etc.)