Deathwing Knights! Viable?

[Cleanse And Purify]

Deathwing Knights are probably some of my favorite GW models ever, right up there with 6th edition Fantasy Ironbreakers and Dwarf Lords, and the old Black Templar Sword Brethren. They are the perfect combination of baroque, gothic majesty and far-future killiness. So naturally, I have spent far too much money on far too many Deathwing Knights. Having invested this amount of cash, naturally I want to use them :D

 

I have 14 Deathwing Knights, a converted Belial (I run a homebrew DA successor) and a Deathwing Ancient. Is there anyway to design a list around these models that is any way, shape, or form competitive? I don't need to place in the top 5 at Adepticon or a GT, but I also don't want to get tabled turn 1/2 by some filthy Tau or Eldar scum.

 

I know mobility and firepower=king in 8th, and Deathwing Knights are neither mobile nor shooty. BUT, they are 2 wound, 2+/3++ models that hit at S8 with AP-3, and don't suffer from the -1 to hit of thunder hammers. And they can get buffed pretty hard by Belial/Ancient/Asmodai (not necessarily all at once...though, maybe ;) ). So at the very least, once they get into combat, they should do work and be relatively difficult to shift.

 

I am in the process of expanding my DA army and I want the two units of DWK to be at its core. Is this possible, or is it a dud idea?

[Hantheman]

For terminators they're very good. But terminators are bad.

 

You can run them and if the rolls go your way you'd probably crush some peeps but they won't make it to a competitive table. 

 

If you had a solid gun line to hold the back objectives and then maybe DWKs, Belial, Libby and DW Ancient. If they make their charges, they'd do work

[domsto]

The Problem with Deathwing Knights is that maybe they will kill a unit in CC (if they manage to make the charge after deep strike)

But after that they will just get blown away by some shooting units.

The 2+/3++ sounds pretty good but with only t4 most weapons will wound them on 4s

[Cleanse And Purify]

Isn't that an issue all melee units suffer from, however?

 

Also, is it worth using Land Raiders, or is that just sinking more points into a boondoggle?

[Knight Angels]

the knight master with flail is really good and kills a lot of chaff units, with the ancient nearby up to 8 modells in one go.

 

righteous repugnance is very handy for them

[FlamingDeth]

Isn't that an issue all melee units suffer from, however?

 

Also, is it worth using Land Raiders, or is that just sinking more points into a boondoggle?

The problem with land raiders is that you need multiples to keep them safe and they're a huge points sink. I've heard good things about storm ravens though, as they work well as a gunship regardless of cargo, but I've not used them myself as I think they look terrible and we've got to have priorities.

[Endgame]

Imo its always better to get Asmodi before bringing the death wing ancient. Only a few more points buys melee rerolls on top of the +1 attack. Bring both for maximum death star

[Isual]

Imo its always better to get Asmodi before bringing the death wing ancient. Only a few more points buys melee rerolls on top of the +1 attack. Bring both for maximum death star

 

The problem is that he is wearing power armor, so no DS for him sadly.

[Cleanse And Purify]

Do we really wanna deep-strike knights? Thats a 9" charge to make on a 2d6, sounds rough. Seems like a Land Raider or Stormraven would be necessary to get them into combat reliably. Which just adds to the points cost, damn.

 

What about a Stormraven with Knights and Ancient or Asmodai going up the board with some Ravenwing? Sammael+Talonmaster, a darkshroud, and some bikers. Bikers/Sammy and Talonbro shoot the choppy, Darkshroud helps keep them not dead, Stormraven drops off the knights, maybe Sammy/Talonbro charge something else nearby too. Have a backline of scouts and plasma devs/Lt. or Azarael (really committing to Herohammer here) and you have a couple decent threats, some mobility, some shooty, and some choppy (smashy?).

[domsto]

The Idea of putting the Deathwing Knights in a Stormraven with some support Characters and so on is a real Point sink that will mostly not pay off.

If the flying Box get shot down from the sky's you basically end up with ~300p that don't do much the rest of the Game but slowly move towards the enemy.

So i wouldn't put to much points in Transports and just take the Risk and deep strike them in the Face of the enemy and hope to get the charge.

[Angel of Solitude]

I've been having plenty of conversations of late about how elite melee-only units seem to have lost their place in the game. I was playing with a Space Wolf player the other day, and he has the same problem with his Wulfen. If you deepstrike them and fail the charge, then they are pretty useless as they can't then shoot. He had a Stormfang flyer in his list, and we discussed using that to transport the Wulfen, but you then encounter the problem that @domsto highlights - if the flyer gets taken out before you deliver the payload, then you're left with an expensive, easy to avoid unit slogging up the field.

 

In a friendly game, I'm going to experiment with a DW Knight squad advancing in a Land Raider. It will be a big point sink, but I'd be interested to see how effective it is.

[G8Keeper]

It's worth noting that there are a few stratagems that can enhance DWK somewhat.  Fortress of Shields is an obvious one, though -1 to wound only in the fight phase,  Never Forgive, Never Forget allows them additional attacks on a 6+, Honour the Chapter allows them to fight twice (my favourite but very costly at 3CP) and Hunt the Fallen can be used to get re-rolls on those deep strike charges.  The latter is very situational as it requires you to actually be able to deep strike within charge range of said character.

[Cleanse And Purify]

The Idea of putting the Deathwing Knights in a Stormraven with some support Characters and so on is a real Point sink that will mostly not pay off.

If the flying Box get shot down from the sky's you basically end up with ~300p that don't do much the rest of the Game but slowly move towards the enemy.

So i wouldn't put to much points in Transports and just take the Risk and deep strike them in the Face of the enemy and hope to get the charge.

My dreams :( I will probably try it anyways, and report back. I think if there were sufficient threats in the list to distract from the Stormraven, it will at the very least deliver the knights. If it gets off a round or two of shooting as well, that should be gravy. Figure with some help from Sammael, a Talonmaster, and a Darkshroud it should be doable, with Plasma Devs/Scouts in the backline.

 

Or enemy focus fire erases my army turn 1 :D 

[G8Keeper]

With a 'shroud backing it up the -2 to hit should make things pretty difficult for the enemy on T1, after that it struggles to keep up with the Raven.

[Endgame]

In my experience, 1 storm raven or land raider just gets shot to pieces early. 2 is way better than one, 3 is best.

 

If I really wanted to make Knights shine, i would bring 2 Storm Ravens.

 

In 1 storm raven I would put 5 Knights and a Deathwing ancient.

 

In another, I would put 5 tartaros terminators, asmodi, and a lieutenant.

 

Back this with a dark shroud and shooting the storm Ravens is going to waste a lot of shots with -2 to hit. If they gun for the darshroud first, then you get a good shot at delivering the terminators. Run both storm Ravens together like they are a unit and combine the charges to maximize the buffs. +2 attacks each with reroll hits and reroll 1 for wounds is a solid combat unit.

[ValourousHeart]

With a 'shroud backing it up the -2 to hit should make things pretty difficult for the enemy on T1, after that it struggles to keep up with the Raven.

 

I understand why people think this that the Shroud (12" movement) would struggle to keep the Raven (20" minimum movement) within the radius of The Icon of Old Caliban (6" Radius).

 

However this is a problem straight from Geometry or Trigonometry, and it has a relatively easy solution.

 

If the Raven crosses over the Shroud each turn, its forward displacement will be slowed to a pace comparable to the Shroud's more forward movement, while still maintaining the Raven's minimum straight-line distance move requirement.

 

Now terrain and enemy models may influence your flight path, but only wobbly model syndrome should prevent unit placement.

 

You just have to plan ahead and consider not just where you are placing your models this turn, but next turn as well.

[Indefragable]

Ya know, go big or go home.

 

I feel like there could actually be a concept here, but it will be extremely wonky and take a ton of effort...and that's to make it workable, let alone even remotely casually competitive..

 

In concept, what you would need:

• Dark Shrouds for the -1 To Hit
• Psykers for Aversion, Righteous Repugnance (acting as chaplain to a squad on a flank), and DtW against Smites/equiv
• A Warlord with Master of Manuevre for re-rolling Advance + Charge
• Things that draw the enemy into the middle of the board, such as Hellblasters w/ Heavy incinerators that deploy pretty far forward. The
• Maybe Scout spam that Infiltrate right up to the enemy's lines to gum up his works/draw fire from your footslogging DWK.

The trick is that usually the DWK are a hammer while the rest of the army is your anvil...you need to flip the script here and make roughly 3x5 DWK units your main battleline. So in that case, you need support elements that both enhance and fill in gaps around the DWK. I think DA Hellblasters with long-range weapons are a good example because they are just scary enough to draw fire from the DWK while standing a chance to do some damage before going down swinging.

 

 

Now the above is me thinking battleline of spread out footslogging DWK. As others have pointed out, you can also go for mobility in various ways. Or just get a storm eagle or other FW flyer and drop them all in at once.

[PhilB]

I've yet to try it, but I've been hanging to try a list based on Azmodia & DW Knights in a Storm Raven flanked by 2 Dark Talons. The list also includes a Dark Shroud for obvious reasons but after that the variations change between a large DW tactical squad & Belial for the DW Assault stratagem or some Scouts/Intercessor units for some home deployment zone board control. It's a bit all or nothing with that much airpower and I'm not expecting it to be all that competitive, but it would be a heck of a lot of fun to play.

The firepower of 2 Dark Talons & a Storm Raven would be pretty cool to see!

[ValourousHeart]

I'm of the opinion if one is good, two is better.

As such I tend to build lists that have 2 units that do the same thing.

 

I don't play DW so I'm not sure how well this will work, but if I wanted to run DW Knights, I would start with 2 squads and put them both in Storm Ravens.

That would be 54 power, probably ballpark about 1100-1200 points.

 

I would then put down 2-3 durable squads so that I'm not tabled before the Knights get out of the Ravens.

I would probably want those units to have a good range so that they can support the Raven's from afar.

 

Finish off with an inexpensive character to buff my firebase.

Since this character's buff is the important aspect and not whatever gun or sword he is holding, I'd go for the Shroud of Heroes, and plant him and the squads he is buffing in cover.

That should make it really difficult to take that buff away.

Since the firebase is key to keeping you in the game while the DWK are being ferried around, Courage of the First Legion might be more valuable than Brilliant Strategist.

 

Weapon choices, I would probably lean toward lots of shots instead of high damage shots.

It is nice to take out that big monster in one shot, but when you have so few models, you can't afford to have the big gun roll a 1 on damage.

 

I wouldn't push the Ravens to far or to fast or spread my firebase shots to thin.

I would overkill anything I targeted, just to remove options from my opponent.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I haven't played any in this edition.......or 7th for that matter *sigh* However I played mostly DW in 5th edition. Back when deepstriking terminators made the store manager faint in despair and women would cover their childrens eyes at the shame etc. 

 

My point is that I played a dualwing mostly because a land raider was just too easy to blow up and way too many points to have that happen. I usually used two to three 5 man squads (sometimes four) and two squads of bikes with two multi melta attack bikes. One squad of DW was all shields and you know even for a 5 man squad it with stood a lot of punishment and then tore up something (usually two guys locking down something I found valuable) while my bikes raced up and the DW would teleport within 6" right where I wanted. They would shoot some stuff and off we would go. Now not massively competitive but it worked well as a distracofex and it was decent in throwing a wrench and reacting to the enemies deployment. People act like it will be the end of the world but many don't try it. I recommend at least three or four games as DS the DW can be a very all or nothing type army initially. There will be some games you can't win. Setup deployment whatever reason. Others you will bring the wrath of the Lion like no one has ever seen. I like the concept and def recommend trying DS of DW. Whats the worst that happens you lose a game or two? Though they are expensive points wise so you do have to commit to supporting them and DS of some sort. Pods, Terminators what have you.

 

my $.01 because I haven't played this edition and $.02 is too much in these hard economic times.

[MaxB]

For you guys running flying transports do you ever get this situation:

- you move your Storm Raven up in anticipation of next turn disembark and charge

- opponent in their movement phase surrounds base of flyer (further than 1" but enough to stop units disembarking within 3" without getting within 1" of enemy model). This alone is enough to stop your DWK (for eg) disembarking thus wasting another turn.

- or worse case opponent in their shooting phase kills the Storm Raven. Unit can't disembark so are auto-killed.

 

To me that seems super risky. Though maybe this is harder to pull of in-game?

 

I suppose the same issue with any transport now that I think of it

[sneakybamsen]

For you guys running flying transports do you ever get this situation:

- you move your Storm Raven up in anticipation of next turn disembark and charge

- opponent in their movement phase surrounds base of flyer (further than 1" but enough to stop units disembarking within 3" without getting within 1" of enemy model). This alone is enough to stop your DWK (for eg) disembarking thus wasting another turn.

- or worse case opponent in their shooting phase kills the Storm Raven. Unit can't disembark so are auto-killed.

 

To me that seems super risky. Though maybe this is harder to pull of in-game?

 

I suppose the same issue with any transport now that I think of it

 

That's the issue with all transports. They protect your unit(s) inside, right up untill they die.

 

Now, on the matter at hand. I recently had a game in which I brought a squad of deathwing knights, 10 terminators, belial and a librarian in TDA. There was also a stormraven, darkshroud, dark talon, 3 scout squads for battalion CP aid and some black knights (3 or 4). My opponent was craftworld eldar, and he definitely had an advantage in mobility I just couldn't match. Bad matchup for a list like the above, but it's going to be the same no matter the number of stormravens/landraiders containing deathwing knights. If your opponent has decent dice or you don't, big, expensive 300+ points transports are getting smoked turn 1, and you knights will die quickly thereafter. I would love to find a way to make them work better, but I don't see it currently. I might run a similar list against tyranids soon, just to see if they are more likely to not run away too fast, but I don't think it's going to be my go-to list for regular games.

[SpaceJS]

It's worth noting that there are a few stratagems that can enhance DWK somewhat.  Fortress of Shields is an obvious one, though -1 to wound only in the fight phase,  Never Forgive, Never Forget allows them additional attacks on a 6+, Honour the Chapter allows them to fight twice (my favourite but very costly at 3CP) and Hunt the Fallen can be used to get re-rolls on those deep strike charges.  The latter is very situational as it requires you to actually be able to deep strike within charge range of said character.

 

Deathwing units get a extra attack on 4+ using the stratagem Never Forgive , never forget.

 

I have used them in the the past deepstriking with belial, a librarian and an ancient sometime. The libby I made warlord with the lord of maneuver option to be able to rerol the charge. They literally clobber stuff. You can also use a landraider cusader to get them on the field, a bit less expensive to use.

[G8Keeper]

Excellent point re: 

 

 

Deathwing units get a extra attack on 4+ using the stratagem Never Forgive , never forget.

I have used them in the the past deepstriking with belial, a librarian and an ancient sometime. The libby I made warlord with the lord of maneuver option to be able to rerol the charge. They literally clobber stuff. You can also use a landraider cusader to get them on the field, a bit less expensive to use.

 

 

Excellent point regarding Master of Manoeuvre, with the Libby's Righteous Repugnance and a command point on standby for re-rolling for that sometimes pesky 7, they can be amost guaranteed to wipe units.

 

I had a bit of an issue this weekend with being swamped by ad mech units.  The vanguard's rad saturation (-1 T) meant I suffered far more wounds than usual and they died fairly cheaply.  I think to counter this I'd have to bring a supporting unit into combat, ala scouts or something.  I did manage to get Cawl down to 1 wound thought... 

[SpaceJS]

Excellent point re: 

 

 

Deathwing units get a extra attack on 4+ using the stratagem Never Forgive , never forget.

I have used them in the the past deepstriking with belial, a librarian and an ancient sometime. The libby I made warlord with the lord of maneuver option to be able to rerol the charge. They literally clobber stuff. You can also use a landraider cusader to get them on the field, a bit less expensive to use.

 

 

Excellent point regarding Master of Manoeuvre, with the Libby's Righteous Repugnance and a command point on standby for re-rolling for that sometimes pesky 7, they can be amost guaranteed to wipe units.

 

I had a bit of an issue this weekend with being swamped by ad mech units.  The vanguard's rad saturation (-1 T) meant I suffered far more wounds than usual and they died fairly cheaply.  I think to counter this I'd have to bring a supporting unit into combat, ala scouts or something.  I did manage to get Cawl down to 1 wound thought... 

 

I actually like to use them against heavy armor. You can wipe two baneblades in one combat round